Which Protestant Faiths Permit Abortion

[Jon_Hus]

You’re not going to believe this. I am considering paramedic school in August. When I told you I made a career change, I make considerably less than I did before deciding to become an EMT. I tried ‘first responding’ when I first received my license, but now as a full time EMT I get my fill and don’t want to ‘burn myself out’. (I just got off 97 hours straight this past Sunday morning at 9AM.) I find I need time to regenerate before climbing back in the saddle each time.

I’m glad to hear that you are looking at paramedic. I think that is one of the advantages of late life changes, you are not going to get “stuck” and unable to get yourself moving to more advance positions. I know and I’m sure you do also folks that for one reason or another feel that they cannot progress up the ladder and it makes them sour on the job.

We are in fact hijacking this thread, but… I really haven’t told anyone (except my wife) about my desire to go to paramedic school. I have heard people (EMTs and EMT-P) that say a year isn’t enough time or you should run for a transport company and so forth. I have heard guys say that those in paramedic school who don’t have more than a few years as a basic really struggle and on and on…

But, if a person graduates from high school and goes directly to nursing school or pre-med, no one say this. I need a year in EMS for the reference and recomendation to get into paramedic school. This is why I volunteer and I’m going to put in at least 50 hours/month in 2010 to get the recommendation. When I started EMT school, my class had 38 students. When we finished, there were 21 left. I placed 3rd in the class. 1st was a medic in the army and 2nd is a LPN. I’m actually lucky because I know EMTs that cannot even get volunteer status here and there are 5 EMS organizations in the area.

Jon

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Are there any that don’t? My family are all Protestant (mostly Lutheran, one sister is Evangelical who is also an M.D.). They all fully embrace contraception as “responsible parenting”. They are also anti-abortion but do not see the contradiction (though, as opportunity permits, I try my best to enlighten them ).

I can’t believe it. How can they not see the comparison?
I will pray for you to get through to them (and their thick skulls). It isn’t an easy thing to discuss, I know!

God Bless you

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I’m glad to hear that you are looking at paramedic. I think that is one of the advantages of late life changes, you are not going to get “stuck” and unable to get yourself moving to more advance positions. I know and I’m sure you do also folks that for one reason or another feel that they cannot progress up the ladder and it makes them sour on the job.

We are in fact hijacking this thread, but… I really haven’t told anyone (except my wife) about my desire to go to paramedic school. I have heard people (EMTs and EMT-P) that say a year isn’t enough time or you should run for a transport company and so forth. I have heard guys say that those in paramedic school who don’t have more than a few years as a basic really struggle and on and on…

But, if a person graduates from high school and goes directly to nursing school or pre-med, no one say this. I need a year in EMS for the reference and recomendation to get into paramedic school. This is why I volunteer and I’m going to put in at least 50 hours/month in 2010 to get the recommendation. When I started EMT school, my class had 38 students. When we finished, there were 21 left. I placed 3rd in the class. 1st was a medic in the army and 2nd is a LPN. I’m actually lucky because I know EMTs that cannot even get volunteer status here and there are 5 EMS organizations in the area.

Jon

I remember my instructor telling the class not to go straight from EMT school to paramedic school. A week before graduation, he called me to his office and said he wanted to sign me up for the paramedic school. I reminded him of what he had told the class and he said, many of our class were only taking it for a class and wouldn’t seek a license. Out of those he felt would get a license, he felt I should go to paramedic school because I pushed myself, and others in the class to excel. He said he felt I deserved it and would do fine. I told him I would prefer to work in the field first.

I have gone to other classes, outside my scope of practice, to understand how to assist the paramedics better. Since then, some paramedics have me do things, under their direct supervision, start and flush IVs, start 12 lead ekgs, push meds, etc. They use me as an extra set of hands is what I’m trying to explain. Right now, I’m learning to read the 12 lead strips, from the internet. I’m supposed to take PALS and ACLS classes soon, again to better assist the paramedics.

The funny thing is, I’m really satisfied being an EMT. I feel it’s less pressure than what the paramedics are under. I have considered taking the course, getting licensed and keeping the EMT license active and continuing to work as an EMT.

I had planned to continue working full time and by the time I graduate, I would have 2.5 years under my belt as an EMT.

Anyway, it was nice speaking to another EMT on the forums and I apologize to those who might be bothered that we went off topic. Good luck with the school, if you decide to go.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled topic of discussion…

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

And what is the reasoning or justification.

Hi Soutane,

Before I was Catholic I was associated with Baptists who held that the soul did not enter the body until the baby breathed. They would point to the passage in Genesis where “God breathed into Adam the breath of life and he became a living soul.” Since the unborn child does not have a human soul, it is not murder to kill it.

I did not personally hold to that opinion, but I was aware of the teaching, and it would make sense to me, if the fetus was not yet a human soul, that it could be terminated before birth.

Rory

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Hi Soutane,

Before I was Catholic I was associated with Baptists who held that the soul did not enter the body until the baby breathed. They would point to the passage in Genesis where “God breathed into Adam the breath of life and he became a living soul.” Since the unborn child does not have a human soul, it is not murder to kill it.

I did not personally hold to that opinion, but I was aware of the teaching, and it would make sense to me, if the fetus was not yet a human soul, that it could be terminated before birth.

Rory

Thanks for sharing that Rory.

Next time you hear that, remind them that babies breath through the umbilical cord. Their lungs start to develop during the first 13 weeks. Their hearts start beating 18 to 21 days after fertilization.

There’s a difference between how babies begin and Adam began.

 

[JonNC]

I understood that Protestantism, changed their rule on birthcontrol before 1930. *They lifted the ban *and now condone it. Attempts at birth control leads to murder,the 6th commandment. Carlan

Who is “they”, Carlan? When you say that you “understood that Protestantism…” who are you talking about?

From the LCMS website:

Q. What is the Missouri Synod’s view of abortion?

A. The LCMS believes that abortion is contrary to God’s Word and “is not a moral option except, except as a tragically unavoidable byproduct of medical procedures necessary to prevent the death of another human being, viz., the mother” (1979 Res. 3-02A). Official synodical resolutions and other materials on this topic are available from the Synod’s Commission on Theology and Church Relations (CTCR).

Jon

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Who is “they”, Carlan? When you say that you “understood that Protestantism…” who are you talking about?

From the LCMS website:

Jon

 

[Carlan]

Who is “they”, Carlan? When you say that you “understood that Protestantism…” who are you talking about?

From the LCMS website:

Jon

Actually Jon, don’t know. It is some thing I heard said somewhere, that before the 3o’ts, it was frowned upon, and later allowed or approved. Perhaps there is someone out there who can educate me on it. Thank you for calling me on it, I stand corrected. I certainly must watch such comments. Peace, Carlan

 

[CMatt25]

I don’t understand this. It sounds like, “I prayed about it, so I know I made the right choice.” Praying about something does not excuse choosing evil. God, whom I am assuming is the object of one’s prayer, would never lead one to sin.

I know you don’t understand. You’re not alone. Most Catholics have difficulty understanding other beliefs.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

I don’t understand this. It sounds like, “I prayed about it, so I know I made the right choice.” Praying about something does not excuse choosing evil. God, whom I am assuming is the object of one’s prayer, would never lead one to sin.

Ding ding ding!!! We got a BINGO!!! This is the crux of the matter. God will never bring someone to take another innocent human beings life.

I know you don’t understand. You’re not alone. Most Catholics have difficulty understanding other beliefs.

This is NOT a Catholic belief. Catholics absolutely cannot pray about something then choose to do the evil, thats not how it works in the Church. My father was a child molester. Can I pray for a while, struggle through it, then go to his house, slit his throat, cut him into pieces, and throw his body in a dumpster? It is an action that would be equatable to abortion, just a bit later… NO!!! Prayer and struggle DO NOT EXCUSE EVIL!!! Good deeds can be corrupted (made evil) by bad motives, but evil deeds are ALWAYS evil, even when done for what seem like good reasons.

But this thread is not about Catholics. It is about all other Christian faiths, so how about we have people start posting their Church’s stance on abortion.

I’ll start: Catholics do not allow abortion in any circumstance I have ever hear of.

FSC

 

[ElisabethM]

Who is “they”, Carlan? When you say that you “understood that Protestantism…” who are you talking about?

From the LCMS website:

Jon

Jon, Carlan was talking about birth control here, not abortion.

Does the LCMS have any official statements about birth control? I have read the “sex ed” series from CPH (Learning About Sex) which is fully accepting, without exception for abortifacients, of artifical birth control. Has anything changed in the last decade?

 

[crazzeto]

Who is “they”, Carlan? When you say that you “understood that Protestantism…” who are you talking about?

From the LCMS website:

Jon

It is unfortunate though, that so many do not equate birth control, with abortion as they should if they are logically consitant. I appriciate your post regarding abortion, but I’m not sure if it answers the question regarding ABC (condoms, pills, whatever else).

 

[NDfan]

Then let’s rephrase the question, since it appears you may have more objection to Church enforced doctrines than abortion itself. What Protestant faiths find abortion an acceptable form of birth control?

Prodigal the answer is none. No Christian denomination would allow abortion as a means of birth control. But there are denominations that have publicly stated abortion is acceptable under certain circumstances. Usually those circumstances surround the mother meaning if her life is in danger then abortion could be an acceptable option. Or in the case of rape whether it be a malicious crime or an abusive father who rapes his daughter. Some of these groups include the american baptist church, united methodist church, the US presbyterian church and many others. Outside of denominations there are groups of people with religious affiliations who support the above position including Catholics for free choice and evangelicals for choice.

It’s a difficult issue for those of us who take a stand for life and want to protect the baby.

 

[NDfan]

OK, how about phrasing it this way: “Which churches allow a woman to have an abortion for any reason?” Either allow it willy-nilly, or allow it for specific reasons (rape, incest, etc)…

Can anybody think of one? Mormons are the first, whats next?

FSC

Mormons are not first where do you get this

The official stance on abortion for the Mormons is as follows:

Church leaders have said that some exceptional circumstances may justify an abortion, such as when pregnancy is the result of incest or rape, when the life or health of the mother is judged by competent medical authority to be in serious jeopardy, or when the fetus is known by competent medical authority to have severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth. But even these circumstances do not automatically justify an abortion. Those who face such circumstances should consider abortion only after consulting with their local Church leaders and receiving a confirmation through earnest prayer.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

Mormons are not first where do you get this

The official stance on abortion for the Mormons is as follows:

Church leaders have said that some exceptional circumstances may justify an abortion, such as when pregnancy is the result of incest or rape, when the life or health of the mother is judged by competent medical authority to be in serious jeopardy, or when the fetus is known by competent medical authority to have severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth. But even these circumstances do not automatically justify an abortion. Those who face such circumstances should consider abortion only after consulting with their local Church leaders and receiving a confirmation through earnest prayer.

They were the first mentioned, that was my only point. I apologize if it was confusing, sometimes I seem to be unable to string two words together in a way that makes sense.

The fact remains that abortion, from the earliest days of the Church has been condemned as a “grave evil” and it isnt really possible that yesterdays evil can become todays good. An evil is an evil is an evil. It can never become a good. One cannot receive confirmation through prayer that doing an evil act is a good unless that confirmation comes from a source other than God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. There are only two sources other than God that can be reached through prayer… Your own will, and Satan (with his legion)… So if it is not of God, and God is all good and all love, then the logical conclusion here is that it is of evil. Evil answering prayers telling you to do evil.

I am not saying that it is easy to follow the path of Righteousness, only that it is necessary.

FSC

 

[NDfan]

They were the first mentioned, that was my only point. I apologize if it was confusing, sometimes I seem to be unable to string two words together in a way that makes sense.

Well I’m not a mormon but I didn’t want anyone to be misrepresented unfairly

The fact remains that abortion, from the earliest days of the Church has been condemned as a “grave evil” and it isnt really possible that yesterdays evil can become todays good. An evil is an evil is an evil. It can never become a good. One cannot receive confirmation through prayer that doing an evil act is a good unless that confirmation comes from a source other than God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. There are only two sources other than God that can be reached through prayer… Your own will, and Satan (with his legion)… So if it is not of God, and God is all good and all love, then the logical conclusion here is that it is of evil. Evil answering prayers telling you to do evil.

I am not saying that it is easy to follow the path of Righteousness, only that it is necessary.

FSC

I don’t disagree that abortion is a grave evil. I think many groups get around the grave evil part by saying that a grave evil act was committed first. Like an act of incest against someone’s will. Or a rape victim.

 

[ElisabethM]

I don’t disagree that abortion is a grave evil. I think many groups get around the grave evil part by saying that a grave evil act was committed first. Like an act of incest against someone’s will. Or a rape victim.

Does anyone really believe that one grave evil justifies another? That’s not “getting around”, that’s plain absurd.

 

[Publisher]

Does anyone really believe that one grave evil justifies another? That’s not “getting around”, that’s plain absurd.

In my own experience with the abortion issue…those women who are averse to abortion…yet have one anyway…come to the conclusion after much prayer, discussion, prayer, study and prayer, that their reasons are extenuating enough to warrant terminating their pregnancy…for reasons only they are able to articulate for themselves OR because they have come to the conclusion that they are not “killing a baby”. They do not believe they are committing a ‘grave evil’…they are willing to take responsibility for their actions…they are willing to allow God to judge them.

Some women that I have spoken to about the issue feel they chose “the lesser of two evils”…and again…they take the responsibility…hence “pro choice”…for their choices. Most of those women I have talked with are willing to trust God in whatever His decisions may be…and they are willing to face the anger and spite of their human accusers if necessary.

Some of the women have indicated a mind set similar to the Catholic mindset that should an etopic pregnancy occur…or in the course of pregnancy should ovarian cancer or uterine cancer be diagnosed and treatment is undertaken the termination of their pregnancy is acceptable. Understood, that the Catholic stance is that since the abortion wasn’t the primary reason for the medical procedure, it was understood that the abortion would occur in treating the primary condition…so terminating a pregnancy as a “secondary” consequence of the primary treatment was acceptable.

For many of us from Protestant traditions, the whole “It’s ok to end a pregnancy through medical procedure as long as ending the pregnancy wasn’t the reason for undergoing the procedure.” is very similar to the whole “divorce/annullment” issue…whether the Catholic church claims a “real sacramental marriage” never occured so the first “pseudo-mariage” is null and the parties can “re-marry”…or be married sacramentally for the first time is beyond our ability to “get our minds around” the “jots and tittles” of the minutae of reasoning.

I am thankful that being a man, I have never had to face the whole issue of terminating a pregnancy…especially a pregnancy conceived in violent rape or incest…those women faced with such issues should be dealt with in compassion and love…I have never had to walk in their shoes nor face the stings and arrows of my brothers and sisters in Christ.

While Catholics have difficulty understanding the Protestant position on such issues…Protestants have the same difficulty understanding the in’s and out’s of Catholic thought at times as well.

 

[CMatt25]

evil deeds are ALWAYS evil, even when done for what seem like good reasons.

But this thread is not about Catholics. It is about all other Christian faiths, so how about we have people start posting their Church’s stance on abortion.

I’ll start: Catholics do not allow abortion in any circumstance I have ever hear of.

FSC

Ok I’ll remember that the next time I hear a Catholic supporting the death penalty in the name of “justice”.

I actually posted a site for a start showing which denominations are pro choice and which aren’t.

 

[CMatt25]

In my own experience with the abortion issue…those women who are averse to abortion…yet have one anyway…come to the conclusion after much prayer, discussion, prayer, study and prayer, that their reasons are extenuating enough to warrant terminating their pregnancy…for reasons only they are able to articulate for themselves OR because they have come to the conclusion that they are not “killing a baby”. They do not believe they are committing a ‘grave evil’…they are willing to take responsibility for their actions…they are willing to allow God to judge them.

Some women that I have spoken to about the issue feel they chose “the lesser of two evils”…and again…they take the responsibility…hence “pro choice”…for their choices. Most of those women I have talked with are willing to trust God in whatever His decisions may be…and they are willing to face the anger and spite of their human accusers if necessary.

Some of the women have indicated a mind set similar to the Catholic mindset that should an etopic pregnancy occur…or in the course of pregnancy should ovarian cancer or uterine cancer be diagnosed and treatment is undertaken the termination of their pregnancy is acceptable. Understood, that the Catholic stance is that since the abortion wasn’t the primary reason for the medical procedure, it was understood that the abortion would occur in treating the primary condition…so terminating a pregnancy as a “secondary” consequence of the primary treatment was acceptable.

For many of us from Protestant traditions, the whole “It’s ok to end a pregnancy through medical procedure as long as ending the pregnancy wasn’t the reason for undergoing the procedure.” is very similar to the whole “divorce/annullment” issue…whether the Catholic church claims a “real sacramental marriage” never occured so the first “pseudo-mariage” is null and the parties can “re-marry”…or be married sacramentally for the first time is beyond our ability to “get our minds around” the “jots and tittles” of the minutae of reasoning.

I am thankful that being a man, I have never had to face the whole issue of terminating a pregnancy…especially a pregnancy conceived in violent rape or incest…those women faced with such issues should be dealt with in compassion and love…I have never had to walk in their shoes nor face the stings and arrows of my brothers and sisters in Christ.

While Catholics have difficulty understanding the Protestant position on such issues…Protestants have the same difficulty understanding the in’s and out’s of Catholic thought at times as well.

:tiphat: “women faced with such issues should be dealt with in compassion and love…I have never had to walk in their shoes nor face the stings and arrows of my brothers and sisters in Christ”