Which Protestant Faiths Permit Abortion

[Newbie2]

Ha! It does lead to the question what is meant by “permission” and what role does the church police have in punishment? And the greater factor of church police. How much damage is done when 9 year old rape victims are punished yet celebrity members of a church seem to move with immunity from prosecution.

Less than how the baby is “punished” with death.

OK, how about phrasing it this way: “Which churches allow a woman to have an abortion for any reason?” Either allow it willy-nilly, or allow it for specific reasons (rape, incest, etc)…

Can anybody think of one? Mormons are the first, whats next?

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Or maybe “Which Churches find it morally acceptable for a woman to have an abortion and what are their criteria for deciding which instances are morally acceptable and which are not?”

What church allows or denies any man to do anything? It implies that the church has policing power over its members. A 9 year old girl has no political power so does she have different rules applied to her then the Speaker of the US House of Rpresentatives?

“Which Churches find it morally acceptable for a woman to have an abortion and what are their criteria for deciding which instances are morally acceptable and which are not?”

Who is “they”, Carlan? When you say that you “understood that Protestantism…” who are you talking about?

From the LCMS website:

Jon

I think this sort of answer was what the OP had in mind, no?

 

[Newbie2]

The United Methodist Church seems to consider abortion morally acceptable under certain circumstances. From their website umc.org :

Our belief in the sanctity of unborn human life makes us reluctant to approve abortion. But we are equally bound to respect the sacredness of the life and well-being of the mother, for whom devastating damage may result from an unacceptable pregnancy. In continuity with past Christian teaching, we recognize tragic conflicts of life with life that may justify abortion, and in such cases we support the legal option of abortion under proper medical procedures. We cannot affirm abortion as an acceptable means of birth control, and we unconditionally reject it as a means of gender selection.

We oppose the use of late-term abortion known as dilation and extraction (partial-birth abortion) and call for the end of this practice except when the physical life of the mother is in danger and no other medical procedure is available, or in the case of severe fetal anomalies incompatible with life. We call all Christians to a searching and prayerful inquiry into the sorts of conditions that may warrant abortion. We commit our Church to continue to provide nurturing ministries to those who terminate a pregnancy, to those in the midst of a crisis pregnancy, and to those who give birth. We particularly encourage the Church, the government, and social service agencies to support and facilitate the option of adoption. (See ¶ 161.K.)

Governmental laws and regulations do not provide all the guidance required by the informed Christian conscience. Therefore, a decision concerning abortion should be made only after thoughtful and prayerful consideration by the parties involved, with medical, pastoral, and other appropriate counsel.

 

[ElisabethM]

those women faced with such issues should be dealt with in compassion and love…I have never had to walk in their shoes nor face the stings and arrows of my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Absolutely right! But saying a grave evil is justified under certain, even horrible, conditions is neither compassion nor love.

The woman’s counselor should never counsel her “to trust God in whatever His decisions may be” as though God may, in this instance, change His mind about the grave evil of abortion. The counselor must be very clear on the absolute evil of abortion and help her then, with compassion and real love, to get through the sufferings of life from here on out.

One evil (abortion) will not heal another evil (rape or incest). It will only exacerbate the poor woman’s troubles.

 

[Publisher]

Absolutely right! But saying a grave evil is justified under certain, even horrible, conditions is neither compassion nor love.

The woman’s counselor should never counsel her “to trust God in whatever His decisions may be” as though God may, in this instance, change His mind about the grave evil of abortion. The counselor must be very clear on the absolute evil of abortion and help her then, with compassion and real love, to get through the sufferings of life from here on out.

One evil (abortion) will not heal another evil (rape or incest). It will only exacerbate the poor woman’s troubles.

If the counselor does not hold the Catholic view of when life is occurs or the more obtuse belief of when “the soul enters the body” that counselor does not consider the termination of a pregnancy a “grave evil” as is the stance of the Catholic church. I understand that the beliefs of the Catholic church states it as such…unless of course the abortion occurs through treatment but is not the “primary” reason for the medical treatment…even though they know the abortion will occur…even Catholics under certain circumstances allow for a pregancy to be terminated…the termination just can’t be the “primary reason” it is being terminated…is that not so?

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

In my own experience with the abortion issue…those women who are averse to abortion…yet have one anyway…come to the conclusion after much prayer, discussion, prayer, study and prayer, that their reasons are extenuating enough to warrant terminating their pregnancy…for reasons only they are able to articulate for themselves OR because they have come to the conclusion that they are not “killing a baby”. They do not believe they are committing a ‘grave evil’…they are willing to take responsibility for their actions…they are willing to allow God to judge them.

Personal beliefs have no bearing on the truth of the matter. If I feel I am a woman, it does not change the fact that I am a man. If I believe that I am the NFL MVP for 2011, it does not change that fact that I am HORRIBLE at football. The same applies here. There is no reason to count the murder of a child among the sins for which each of us must answer.

Some women that I have spoken to about the issue feel they chose “the lesser of two evils”…and again…they take the responsibility…hence “pro choice”…for their choices. Most of those women I have talked with are willing to trust God in whatever His decisions may be…and they are willing to face the anger and spite of their human accusers if necessary.

See above

Some of the women have indicated a mind set similar to the Catholic mindset that should an etopic pregnancy occur…or in the course of pregnancy should ovarian cancer or uterine cancer be diagnosed and treatment is undertaken the termination of their pregnancy is acceptable. Understood, that the Catholic stance is that since the abortion wasn’t the primary reason for the medical procedure, it was understood that the abortion would occur in treating the primary condition…so terminating a pregnancy as a “secondary” consequence of the primary treatment was acceptable.

For many of us from Protestant traditions, the whole “It’s ok to end a pregnancy through medical procedure as long as ending the pregnancy wasn’t the reason for undergoing the procedure.” is very similar to the whole “divorce/annullment” issue…whether the Catholic church claims a “real sacramental marriage” never occured so the first “pseudo-mariage” is null and the parties can “re-marry”…or be married sacramentally for the first time is beyond our ability to “get our minds around” the “jots and tittles” of the minutae of reasoning.

I tried, but I have nothing for this… Wonderful argument.

I am thankful that being a man, I have never had to face the whole issue of terminating a pregnancy…especially a pregnancy conceived in violent rape or incest…those women faced with such issues should be dealt with in compassion and love…I have never had to walk in their shoes nor face the stings and arrows of my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Absolutely correct. My dealings and statements on this forum are MUCH different than they have been when faced with the immediate aftermath of these situations. That being said, I can not avoid articulating the truth of what occurs during these “merciful” abortions.

While Catholics have difficulty understanding the Protestant position on such issues…Protestants have the same difficulty understanding the in’s and out’s of Catholic thought at times as well.

I do understand protestant thinking, I was one once. I hated the Church, so I can understand where many people are coming from. I just disagree with much of it now.

Ok I’ll remember that the next time I hear a Catholic supporting the death penalty in the name of “justice”.

I actually posted a site for a start showing which denominations are pro choice and which aren’t.

Completely different issue, but your apparent anger and frustration with both sides is evident and understandable. Although you seem to be pro-abortion and anti death penalty which would be a similar, though antithetical, dichotomy to the one you dislike among Catholics.

I am not in the pro-death penalty camp, however, so I have dodged that particular barb by only the narrowest of margins. Other barbs, however, are spot on for me.

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[FidesSpesCarita]

If the counselor does not hold the Catholic view of when life is occurs or the more obtuse belief of when “the soul enters the body” that counselor does not consider the termination of a pregnancy a “grave evil” as is the stance of the Catholic church. I understand that the beliefs of the Catholic church states it as such…unless of course the abortion occurs through treatment but is not the “primary” reason for the medical treatment…even though they know the abortion will occur…even Catholics under certain circumstances allow for a pregancy to be terminated…the termination just can’t be the “primary reason” it is being terminated…is that not so?

Again, how a person views an evil does not make it less evil. If I thought rape was morally acceptable that would not change its intrinsically evil nature. Moral relativism is a myth which stems from faulty logic.

As far as morally permissible abortions, I dont have the time to find the circumstances the Church allows them. My understanding is that they are never permissible. If, however, an accident befalls the mother that causes a miscarriage, that would not be a sin, but a horrible accident. i.e. mother falls down the stairs, car accident, etc. I think that the circumstances you are trying to describe would fall in that category. But then again, I am not certain what you are trying to say, so if you could clarify? Maybe show an example? And if you might find any doctrinal documentation of this that would be very kind as well.

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[CMatt25]

you seem to be pro-abortion and anti death penalty

You’re half right.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

You’re half right.

lol then correct me, by all means!!! I am not easily offended

 

[Publisher]

Again, how a person views an evil does not make it less evil. If I thought rape was morally acceptable that would not change its intrinsically evil nature. Moral relativism is a myth which stems from faulty logic.

As far as morally permissible abortions, I dont have the time to find the circumstances the Church allows them. My understanding is that they are never permissible. If, however, an accident befalls the mother that causes a miscarriage, that would not be a sin, but a horrible accident. i.e. mother falls down the stairs, car accident, etc. I think that the circumstances you are trying to describe would fall in that category. But then again, I am not certain what you are trying to say, so if you could clarify? Maybe show an example? And if you might find any doctrinal documentation of this that would be very kind as well.

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I agree that how a person views an evil does not make it less evil…you define what acts are “evil” based on Catholic belief…any belief contrary to Catholic belief…no matter what it is is wrong as the Catholic church is right. If those of us believed the Catholic church was right…we’d be Catholic…but we do not believe the church speaks authoratively in regard to issues which are considered extremly personal. It is your belief to define others beliefs in ways that make sense to you…right or wrong…they are your beliefs.

It is easy to define others beliefs as “moral relativism” when they contradict our own held beliefs.

Deitrich Bonhoeffer firmly believed it was morally evil for him to participate in the assination attempt upon Hitler…but he did anyway. He placed himself into the Hands of God and would face whatever judgement came…some choices are not as clear cut as we would like them to be…sometimes it IS a fearful and frightening thing to place oneself into the Hands of God.

Perhaps you should research when your church allows the termination of a pregnancy. There are circumstances where the termination of a pregnancy is acceptable since the termination isn’t the primary reason but a consequence…even though it is known that undergoing that procedure will terminate the pregnacy…in such cases in order to save the mother’s life…or correct a health problem…it is acceptable morally…as I understand as long as the primary reason a pregancy is terminated but a consequence…the procedure is allowed even though the end result is the termination of the pregancy.

 

[Bluegoat]

The Catholic Church is clear on when life begins. Can a life begin without a soul? Why would “most Catholics” be unsure as to why a soul is present from conception?

Most know that the CC teaches that life begins at conception. But few understand why the CC believes this.

To say - can a life begin without a soul is in a way correct, but very unclear. THe response someone who was skeptical would be “what do you mean by life?” And of course many Catholics do not realize that life is intimately connected to the idea of the soul. You can see this regularly on CAF where someone asks if animals have a soul, and many will answer that the CC says that they do not. Of course animals and plants and all living things have souls. It is a very common misconception that they do not among Christians, but if it were true, then it would be possible to have life without a soul.

Additionally, non-living things have the non-living equivalent of a soul, a form, which is the sort of pattern or equation that makes it what it is, and not something else. Understanding this makes understanding why the soul is present from conception much easier, but most people who have not studied a little philosophy have never been exposed to that idea.

 

[ElisabethM]

If the counselor does not hold the Catholic view of when life is occurs or the more obtuse belief of when “the soul enters the body” that counselor does not consider the termination of a pregnancy a “grave evil” as is the stance of the Catholic church. I understand that the beliefs of the Catholic church states it as such…unless of course the abortion occurs through treatment but is not the “primary” reason for the medical treatment…even though they know the abortion will occur…even Catholics under certain circumstances allow for a pregnancy to be terminated…the termination just can’t be the “primary reason” it is being terminated…is that not so?

I understand what you’re saying. From the Protestant point of view, what you say makes sense.

I would, however, carefully examine and consider post-abortion reactions in women who have chosen abortion. Has the abortion REALLY helped them heal from their initial trauma, or has it added to their burden?

And, maybe men can also not understand what it means to carry life inside you. How can a man ever counsel a woman under any circumstances to intentionally end the life growing inside her?

I am no canon lawyer, far from it, but I know the issue of “unintentional abortion” is a grave matter, not simply, “oops, a by-product of another medical procedure”. I believe the default position is to preserve the unborn’s life. In the case of an ectopic pregnancy, the baby would not survive anyway so the surgery would be permitted.

 

[Bluegoat]

I understand what you’re saying. From the Protestant point of view, what you say makes sense.

I would, however, carefully examine and consider post-abortion reactions in women who have chosen abortion. Has the abortion REALLY helped them heal from their initial trauma, or has it added to their burden?

And, maybe men can also not understand what it means to carry life inside you. How can a man ever counsel a woman under any circumstances to intentionally end the life growing inside her?

I am no canon lawyer, far from it, but I know the issue of “unintentional abortion” is a grave matter, not simply, “oops, a by-product of another medical procedure”. I believe the default position is to preserve the unborn’s life. In the case of an ectopic pregnancy, the baby would not survive anyway so the surgery would be permitted.

I think the description was fairly accurate actually.

Abortion in the case of ectopic pregnancy is not allowed because the baby wouldn’t survive. Rather, the CC says it is acceptable to allow the removal of the tube to prevent the death of the mother, and the death of the embryo is a secondary, unintended consequence. The CC does not alow the treatment of ectopic pregnancy be giving the mother a drug to cause he body to expel the embryo, because that would be attacking the baby directly and so be unacceptable.

 

[Publisher]

I understand what you’re saying. From the Protestant point of view, what you say makes sense.

I would, however, carefully examine and consider post-abortion reactions in women who have chosen abortion. Has the abortion REALLY helped them heal from their initial trauma, or has it added to their burden?

And, maybe men can also not understand what it means to carry life inside you. How can a man ever counsel a woman under any circumstances to intentionally end the life growing inside her?

I am no canon lawyer, far from it, but I know the issue of “unintentional abortion” is a grave matter, not simply, “oops, a by-product of another medical procedure”. I believe the default position is to preserve the unborn’s life. In the case of an ectopic pregnancy, the baby would not survive anyway so the surgery would be permitted.

I agree, men cannot understand what it means to carry a life.

What I see from the “pro-life” side so often is the characterization that those who hold a “pro-choice” view are somehow “godless-murderers-void-of-any-morals”…and we see this type of belief from one end of the spectrum to the other…it is no more true than the “pro-choice” characterization of “pro-life” advocates as “ignorant-bible-thumping-can’t-think-for-themselves-heartless-morons”.

I have been acquainted and even been close friends to women who have chosen to end their pregnancy. It was a difficult decison they did not enter into lightly…no matter what the “right” says about them…and they have lived with that decision. No one is asking that “your” beliefs concerning abortion be “relaxed”…“stand in the Light”…“mind the Light” in this area…but do not allow yourself to be hardened to what some of these women dealt with. Temper your beliefs with compassion…mercy…patience…especially toward those of us who do not share your beliefs…we must do the same toward you.

I have sat and held hands with a couple women who made their decision…against my counsel…to terminate their pregnancy. I have driven them to the procedure because their family refused to assist them…I chose to bear part of their burden…I could not “throw them to the wolves” and say “You’re on your own in this.”…they were already alone in ways I could never fathom…I chose to bear a measure of their guilt…I could not turn them away when they asked for my help. They were in such pain, to do so would have been morally evil IMO.

Bearing the pain and sin of others at times is what we are called to do…and I cannot think of anything more painful to a woman than making this decision…it must be a very dark place to find oneself.

 

[crazzeto]

I have been acquainted and even been close friends to women who have chosen to end their pregnancy. It was a difficult decison they did not enter into lightly…no matter what the “right” says about them…and they have lived with that decision. No one is asking that “your” beliefs concerning abortion be “relaxed”…“stand in the Light”…“mind the Light” in this area…but do not allow yourself to be hardened to what some of these women dealt with. Temper your beliefs with compassion…mercy…patience…especially toward those of us who do not share your beliefs…we must do the same toward you.

This can not be done with regard to the act of abortion, and frankly it doesn’t really matter whether one can experience carrying life with in you or not. Abortion is objectivly evil, no better than say, followers of Moloch from the Old Testament. So if you’re expecting pro-lifers to soften their stance on abortion, because of someone you know then you’re kidding your self. Abortion is objectivly evil, it should not be allowed.

With regard to individuals who have been trapped by the lies surrounding the issue, these individuals certainly should not merely be ostracised and told they are wicked people going to hell. Rather, they require healing, and it is the job of the church and lay to help with this. They also need prayer, and we should do this as well CC runs at least one (to my knowlege) very successful ministry nation wide (world wide?) to help heal the victems of abortion.

With regard to medical treatments, which may (or certainly will) result in the loss of the fetus. You point out what you believe is an inconsitancy here, but consider this. What church teaches at a tenant, that a parent must enter a buring building (for instance) to save the life of their living child?

Certainly the Church, and all of us consider it better that a parent would do this. Certainly I would like to believe most of us would at least hope that we would do just this. But is it a sin, to enter into certain death? To save another? As far as I know, there’s no teaching that says this.

Such self sacrafice, when it happens, is very highly praised and held up as a shinging example of Christianity.

 

[Publisher]

So if you’re expecting pro-lifers to soften their stance on abortion, because of someone you know then you’re kidding your self. Abortion is objectivly evil, it should not be allowed.
QUOTE]

You are reacting. I made special note to be sure I made the point to NOT relax your beliefs…but to temper them with compassion and love and mercy…I do not “kid” myself…your stance is loud and clear…clear in many ways.

 

[ElisabethM]

I agree, men cannot understand what it means to carry a life.

What I see from the “pro-life” side so often is the characterization that those who hold a “pro-choice” view are somehow “godless-murderers-void-of-any-morals”…and we see this type of belief from one end of the spectrum to the other…it is no more true than the “pro-choice” characterization of “pro-life” advocates as “ignorant-bible-thumping-can’t-think-for-themselves-heartless-morons”.

I have been acquainted and even been close friends to women who have chosen to end their pregnancy. It was a difficult decison they did not enter into lightly…no matter what the “right” says about them…and they have lived with that decision. No one is asking that “your” beliefs concerning abortion be “relaxed”…“stand in the Light”…“mind the Light” in this area…but do not allow yourself to be hardened to what some of these women dealt with. Temper your beliefs with compassion…mercy…patience…especially toward those of us who do not share your beliefs…we must do the same toward you.

I have sat and held hands with a couple women who made their decision…against my counsel…to terminate their pregnancy. I have driven them to the procedure because their family refused to assist them…I chose to bear part of their burden…I could not “throw them to the wolves” and say “You’re on your own in this.”…they were already alone in ways I could never fathom…I chose to bear a measure of their guilt…I could not turn them away when they asked for my help. They were in such pain, to do so would have been morally evil IMO.

No one here has ever suggested this is an easy matter. We are discussing objective Truth. Whether it is easy or hard to choose what is right is irrelevant. You are no hero to aid another in committing a grave evil but, you are right, that you bear the guilt with the woman for taking an innocent life.

Bearing the pain and sin of others at times is what we are called to do…and I cannot think of anything more painful to a woman than making this decision…it must be a very dark place to find oneself.

I can think of something more courageous . . . offering herself and whatever she hopes to gain from an abortion for the life of her child. Selfishness, which the choice for abortion is, is not love and it is never the right choice. A good definition of sin, in fact, is selfishness.

 

[crazzeto]

You are reacting. I made special note to be sure I made the point to NOT relax your beliefs…but to temper them with compassion and love and mercy…I do not “kid” myself…your stance is loud and clear…clear in many ways.

You should close my quote with a / before the QUOTE]. My response has become part of your message.

Now with regard to this post, I’m not reacting I’m responding to exactly the point you’re making here. No, I really don’t need to temper my opinion with any compassion, I have no compassion for Abortion, none for those who are involved in making it happen, none for those who spread the lies. I’ll save my compassion for those who are aflicted by this great evil, particularly in my exhorting them to seek healing (first and formost) and turn back to God (part of the healing process).

 

[Publisher]

You should close my quote with a / before the QUOTE]. My response has become part of your message.

Now with regard to this post, I’m not reacting I’m responding to exactly the point you’re making here. No, I really don’t need to temper my opinion with any compassion, I have no compassion for Abortion, none for those who are involved in making it happen, none for those who spread the lies. I’ll save my compassion for those who are aflicted by this great evil, particularly in my exhorting them to seek healing (first and formost) and turn back to God (part of the healing process).

Peace to you friend.

 

[Publisher]

No one here has ever suggested this is an easy matter. We are discussing objective Truth. Whether it is easy or hard to choose what is right is irrelevant. You are no hero to aid another in committing a grave evil but, you are right, that you bear the guilt with the woman for taking an innocent life.

I can think of something more courageous . . . offering herself and whatever she hopes to gain from an abortion for the life of her child. Selfishness, which the choice for abortion is, is not love and it is never the right choice. A good definition of sin, in fact, is selfishness.

It was my choice to be there for her when no one else would…of that I am guilty as charged. “Offeringing” something other than this was all I could offer…to be with her in her darkness.

I will bear the guilt of that decision…I made sure she was cared for afterwards…I made sure she was not any more alone than she was already. I fed her soup and gave her a safe and quiet place to recover…I accept my own sin…and if you define it as “selfish”…I can accept that. While she was recovering I was able to secure her housing with another Friend who lived nearby.

She made her choice to terminate her pregnancy…and I made my choice to sit with her in her darkness…I am guilty as charged…I would not change my decision in the matter. I do not see myself as a “hero”…I am a Friend.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

I agree that how a person views an evil does not make it less evil…you define what acts are “evil” based on Catholic belief…any belief contrary to Catholic belief…no matter what it is is wrong as the Catholic church is right. If those of us believed the Catholic church was right…we’d be Catholic…but we do not believe the church speaks authoratively in regard to issues which are considered extremly personal. It is your belief to define others beliefs in ways that make sense to you…right or wrong…they are your beliefs.

It is easy to define others beliefs as “moral relativism” when they contradict our own held beliefs.

Deitrich Bonhoeffer firmly believed it was morally evil for him to participate in the assination attempt upon Hitler…but he did anyway. He placed himself into the Hands of God and would face whatever judgement came…some choices are not as clear cut as we would like them to be…sometimes it IS a fearful and frightening thing to place oneself into the Hands of God.

Perhaps you should research when your church allows the termination of a pregnancy. There are circumstances where the termination of a pregnancy is acceptable since the termination isn’t the primary reason but a consequence…even though it is known that undergoing that procedure will terminate the pregnacy…in such cases in order to save the mother’s life…or correct a health problem…it is acceptable morally…as I understand as long as the primary reason a pregancy is terminated but a consequence…the procedure is allowed even though the end result is the termination of the pregancy.

I havent found any instances where it is allowed. Perhaps you could find some for me, since you know of them already…

As far as calling it moral relativism, what else would you say? When a person says “well thats what YOU think, but I think this… so we will agree to disagree” what else is it but moral relativism. A thing is either true or not true. No in betweens.

And Dietrich Bonhoeffer may have been right or wrong, I cannot judge his circumstances (killing is wrong, but killing Hitler MIGHT save MILLIONS of lives). But that is not the case in abortion. You are killing an absolute innocent (as innocent as any human can be). That is never an honorable, just, or good choice. It cannot be.

I understand the confusion and fear that can lead a woman to contemplate this, but it is confusion and fear, not God guiding a woman to have an abortion. Who causes confusion and fear? Who brings despair? Not God.

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