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Publisher
Guest
I understand your position…I simply do not agree with it…if “moral relativist” works for you…I’m ok with it.
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crazzeto
Guest
Better to give a woman experiencing such fear and doubt your support in terms of reassuring them that God will see them successfully through the pregancy, and will make sure they are provided for. After all, does St. Matthew not write:
And if they absolutely feel they can not care for the child, so much better to exhort them to offer up this child for adoption. Rather than hold their hand, and tell them that everything is OK with abortion.
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Bold_Sexton
Guest
ELCA position in part:
This church recognizes that there can be sound reasons for ending a pregnancy through induced abortion. The following provides guidance for those considering such a decision. We recognize that conscientious decisions need to be made in relation to difficult circumstances that vary greatly. What is determined to be a morally responsible decision in one situation may not be in another.
In reflecting ethically on what should be done in the case of an unintended pregnancy, consideration should be given to the status and condition of the life in the womb. We also need to consider the conditions under which the pregnancy occurred and the implications of the pregnancy for the woman’s life.
An abortion is morally responsible in those cases in which continuation of a pregnancy presents a clear threat to the physical life of the woman.
A woman should not be morally obligated to carry the resulting pregnancy to term if the pregnancy occurs when both parties do not participate willingly in sexual intercourse.[E] This is especially true in cases of rape and incest. This can also be the case in some situations in which women are so dominated and oppressed that they have no choice regarding sexual intercourse and little access to contraceptives. Some conceptions occur under dehumanizing conditions that are contrary to God’s purposes.
There are circumstances of extreme fetal abnormality, which will result in severe suffering and very early death of an infant. In such cases, after competent medical consultations, the parent(s) may responsibly choose to terminate the pregnancy. Whether they choose to continue or to end such pregnancies, this church supports the parent(s) with compassion, recognizing the struggle involved in the decision.
Although abortion raises significant moral issues at any stage of fetal development, the closer the life in the womb comes to full term the more serious such issues become.[F] When a child can survive outside a womb, it becomes possible for other people, and not only the mother, to nourish and care for the child. This church opposes ending
intrauterine life when a fetus is developed enough to live outside a uterus with the aid of reasonable and necessary technology. If a pregnancy needs to be interrupted after this point, every reasonable and necessary effort should be made to support this life, unless there are lethal fetal abnormalities indicating that the prospective newborn will die very soon.
Our biblical and confessional commitments provide the basis for us to continue deliberating together on the moral issues related to these decisions. We have the responsibility to make the best possible decisions in light of the information available to us and our sense of accountability to God, neighbor, and self. In these decisions, we must ultimately rely on the grace of God.
This church recognizes that there can be sound reasons for ending a pregnancy through induced abortion. The following provides guidance for those considering such a decision. We recognize that conscientious decisions need to be made in relation to difficult circumstances that vary greatly. What is determined to be a morally responsible decision in one situation may not be in another.
In reflecting ethically on what should be done in the case of an unintended pregnancy, consideration should be given to the status and condition of the life in the womb. We also need to consider the conditions under which the pregnancy occurred and the implications of the pregnancy for the woman’s life.
An abortion is morally responsible in those cases in which continuation of a pregnancy presents a clear threat to the physical life of the woman.
A woman should not be morally obligated to carry the resulting pregnancy to term if the pregnancy occurs when both parties do not participate willingly in sexual intercourse.[E] This is especially true in cases of rape and incest. This can also be the case in some situations in which women are so dominated and oppressed that they have no choice regarding sexual intercourse and little access to contraceptives. Some conceptions occur under dehumanizing conditions that are contrary to God’s purposes.
There are circumstances of extreme fetal abnormality, which will result in severe suffering and very early death of an infant. In such cases, after competent medical consultations, the parent(s) may responsibly choose to terminate the pregnancy. Whether they choose to continue or to end such pregnancies, this church supports the parent(s) with compassion, recognizing the struggle involved in the decision.
Although abortion raises significant moral issues at any stage of fetal development, the closer the life in the womb comes to full term the more serious such issues become.[F] When a child can survive outside a womb, it becomes possible for other people, and not only the mother, to nourish and care for the child. This church opposes ending
intrauterine life when a fetus is developed enough to live outside a uterus with the aid of reasonable and necessary technology. If a pregnancy needs to be interrupted after this point, every reasonable and necessary effort should be made to support this life, unless there are lethal fetal abnormalities indicating that the prospective newborn will die very soon.
Our biblical and confessional commitments provide the basis for us to continue deliberating together on the moral issues related to these decisions. We have the responsibility to make the best possible decisions in light of the information available to us and our sense of accountability to God, neighbor, and self. In these decisions, we must ultimately rely on the grace of God.
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tomarin
Guest
I don’t mean to antagonize you, I know you’re holding an unpopular position here, but may I ask … if abortion is not the deliberate taking of another person’s life, i.e. murder, then what is it?
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FidesSpesCarita
Guest
Thank you. This is something that I often forget to do, temper the truth with love. I truly do appreciate your reminders.
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FidesSpesCarita
Guest
Your selflessness is to be applauded sir. But you should never be a part of sin. That is never a good thing. Piling sin upon yourself is not good. Can not be good. I am sad for saying it but it is true.
When you say “I will bear the guilt of that decision” you are saying that you have sinned. A sin is never good. If you steal a thousand dollars to provide for your family, is that a good thing? I would say not. Look at Crazzeto’s post above.
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Publisher
Guest
I understand the distinctions many would make concerning when is a “fetus” a “baby” and when it is not. While many religious beliefs may answer that question for the various adherants of such beliefs…religious doctrine does not answer it for me.
My own belief is that abortion is taking an innocent life when the child is able to live outside the womb and no longer is joined to the woman…up to this point it is her choice to deal with her body as she sees fit…even if I disagree with those choices. While my own beliefs answer the question for me…I don’t presume that I live in a “black and white” world and my beliefs necessarily guide others.
My son was prematurely born at 7 months gestation…he lived for less than half an hour…he was my son…the thought of terminating my wifes pregnancy for any reason was beyond my scope of contemplation…
For those women who terminate their pregnancies, I can only pray for them and offer them hope that tomorrow can offer forgiveness and hope…even if today is dark.
I have no easy answers or pearls of wisdom to offer you concerning the issue…I will never be faced with that choice…all I can do is offer as much support and healing to those who feel they have no choice in the matter…I am against abortion…that is my choice according to my beliefs.
In those “grey areas” of “when does life begin in the womb”…I feel sometimes it is a moving target…when the choice is made by a woman who is in control of her own body, I offer counsel when asked…and if that counsel is refused, if I am given the opportunity I assist by offering to help “pick up the pieces”…I have been taken up on that offer a few times…other times I’ve been told to mind my own business.
When is abortion “murder” is not something I can answer very easily…because I simply don’t know…I have my beliefs…but my beliefs do not govern the law of the land. I am against abortion…but I do not wish to restrict the woman’s right to choose the fate of her own body…she is not an incubator or a breeding machine…her self-determination must be preserved…and all the emotional pleas of “stop the murder of innocents” doesn’t sway me enough to restrict the right of choice to a woman over her own body…I don’t have an easy answer…I can only respond to each situation as compassionately and lovingly as possible…if I am wrong…I am willing to face the consequences for my choices…I must allow the woman to the same choice.
To see a child before my eyes and hold him in my arms I know this IS A CHILD…I know he exists outside the womb…“when” he “became” is much more difficult for me to answer…but I will never have to make that choice…I am a man.
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Publisher
Guest
It is mine to bear as I choose…I do not know if I sinned…but if I did…I bear that for myself…I do not regret it. I take responsibility for my decisions…and I would do it again if asked to be there for someone who had no one else to be with them.
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crazzeto
Guest
Publisher,
I assume you accept at least the Bible as an authorty correct? Jer 1:5
More over, the personal beliefs of others quite simply does nothing to change the objective truth found in Scripture and Ancient Church Tradition. We are fully human in Gods eyes at conception, to willingly participate in abortion in any capacity, including that of “compassionately” telling someone that everything is going to be A-OK and not to worry about the consequences of what they’re about to do is grave to say the least.
I’m not blind to the fact that your heart may be telling you otherwise, certainly it’s natural to want to comfort the afflicted, and to not want to exhort those around us (especially those closest to us) to better choices. But we must, if we don’t we fail our baptismal calling supremely.
I assume you accept at least the Bible as an authorty correct? Jer 1:5
God is pretty specific about you having a soul before being born, and says nothing about your personal viability in the womb. One can not “play God” by trying to asses a specific time frame at which point we think a soul is present in the soon to be born child. We must assume it is there, from conseption.
More over, the personal beliefs of others quite simply does nothing to change the objective truth found in Scripture and Ancient Church Tradition. We are fully human in Gods eyes at conception, to willingly participate in abortion in any capacity, including that of “compassionately” telling someone that everything is going to be A-OK and not to worry about the consequences of what they’re about to do is grave to say the least.
I’m not blind to the fact that your heart may be telling you otherwise, certainly it’s natural to want to comfort the afflicted, and to not want to exhort those around us (especially those closest to us) to better choices. But we must, if we don’t we fail our baptismal calling supremely.
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Publisher
Guest
I think you misunderstand…at no time did I indicate “everything would be A-OK”…that is your assement of the situation…not based in fact…just your ‘gut response’…at no time in my post did I indicate that “the consequences of what they’re about to do” should not be considered…again…your characterization of the situation…I did not “willingly participate” in the abortion…I was agaist it…but I could not abandon someone who was in need…the physical pain…the bleeding…the nausea…the weeping…the cry for help and solace was something I could participate in. A warm bed, a hot cup of soup and a place to heal was what I could offer…she made her choice…whether I agreed with it or not, the choice was made…tell me…would you have left her stranded and alone to “teach her a lesson” of “morality”? I can do without that type of morality…and will.
“Not exhort those around you…”…another characterization on your part…my “exhorting” had taken place…it was not heeded…tell me when you “exhort” someone and they don’t follow your advice…do you “kick them to the curb” to “teach them a lesson to follow your instruction the next time or they’ll get more of the same form you?” I fulfilled my "baptismal’ responsibility by “offering a cup of cold water” in His name to someone in need of it. “I was thirsty…I was naked…I was in prison…”
I do not accept “ancient church tradition” as set forth by the Catholic church. It has it’s place in your belief system…not mine…if I accepted it…I would be Catholic…
Yes, I do believe scripture has “an authority”…but it is not a science book…nor is it some magic tome. It is a record of our “befores” experience with God…and that experience with God is to be “incarnated” in our day and time…scripture points to the Source…but it is not the Source itself…“We did not exchange a pope of flesh for a pope of paper.” is one of my favorite quotes…each of us is responsible for our beliefs and actions.
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ElisabethM
Guest
But you did make that choice when you took a woman to get an abortion. Surely, you did not believe she was carrying a child in her womb.
But perhaps there is lingering doubt in your mind and your guilt has brought you here. What if that was a child with a soul–what then? And since you don’t know, why take the horrible risk that it isn’t.
My earlier point that a man can never appreciate what it is to carry life was made to point out a man can never appreciate the consequences of willfully taking that life. A man may think he is doing the compassionate thing by helping a woman get an abortion, but she is the one who loses the life within her and will mourn for her baby the rest of her life. At the moment, fear overwhelms and abortion looks like the “lesser of two evils” but you cannot fathom the LIFELONG, or eternal, consequences of a woman having an abortion.
You miss the point. This is misplaced compassion. It may even be something to assuage your guilty conscience. Real love would have not participated in the abortion but worked harder to find her help to carry the baby to term and then, perhaps, as another suggested, find an adoptive family for the baby. The abortion hurt the woman and killed the baby. It was a lose-lose situation.
Now if, after all you possibly could have done to prevent the abortion, she still went ahead with it, then called you for help, all the above would have been great acts of compassion.
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crazzeto
Guest
Publisher,
Did you take her to the clinic? If so everything I said stands as a comment and exhortation to you. If not, and you merely took care of her after the fact then it stands in principal but not as a direct comment to you.
If you did take her to the clinic, then I strongly suggest praying about what you did, asking God for forgiveness in the best capacity that your contience understands. And to please take to heart how important and issue this is.
Did you take her to the clinic? If so everything I said stands as a comment and exhortation to you. If not, and you merely took care of her after the fact then it stands in principal but not as a direct comment to you.
If you did take her to the clinic, then I strongly suggest praying about what you did, asking God for forgiveness in the best capacity that your contience understands. And to please take to heart how important and issue this is.
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CMatt25
Guest
Publisher, I just want to say I have read your posts and find them full of His love. I have nothing to say right now other than the women you have befriended are truly blessed to have had you by their side and to you my brother in Christ may God bless for the love you have shown to them. 
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tomarin
Guest
But biology (not the Catholic Church or some other religion) teaches us that a fetus is just a human being in a particular stage of development – therefore simply being in that stage does not disqualify it from being considered a human entity. It has its own unique pattern of dna that distinguishes it from its parents. It seems arbitrary to me to draw the line at the point of development where it can survive outside of the mother’s body (especially considering that a human baby needs considerable care from its parents in order to survive for some time after its birth, unlike many animals’ offspring).
And if you’re not sure about the particulars about where authentic life begins, isn’t it better to err on the side of prudence just in case your instincts are wrong?
I’m sorry to hear about your family tragedy.
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Publisher
Guest
I understand your position…I do not agree with it.
This young woman was early into her pregnacy…no, I did not believe she was murdering a child…she was terminating her pregnancy…a pregnancy which would have resulted in a fully formed child that could survive outside the womb…until then it was her choice to do with her body as she chose. It is not a decision I would have made…but I did choose to be with her in this difficult time when no one else would…and to make sure she was safe.
I had no doubts concerning whether “it was a baby” or not…it was early on in the pregnancy…I don’t have guilt concerning my “misplaced compassion”…I’d do it again if I had the opportunity. She had made her decision and she was sure she did not wish continue with the pregnancy…she excercised her choice in the matter and made a decision.
“Worked harder”…like tying her up and locking her in a closet until she was full term so she could adopt out the child? She chose not to continue with the pregnancy. It was her choice…not mine.
One of the young women I cared for now counsels other young women as an “insider” to the situation…she knows how difficult such choices are…she offers alternatives…but does not abandon her charges if they make a decision she would not make. The other young woman I assisted now has a husband and two children…we remain good friends…I stood up with her and her husband at their Baptist wedding.
If it makes you feel better to think my “guilt brought me here” is to get answers and to “assage my guilty conscience”…I can live with that…perhaps that’s how you cope with such situations…I don’t know what your motivations are in seeking to insist I feel “guilt” when I do not…I am torn for other reasons…very personal reasons…if I carry “guilt” it is mine to carry.
Did I do all I could do to stop her? I doubt any answer would satisfy you…but I would offer my time, my prayers, my home, my food, my car if I was placed in a similar situation…I can do nothing less.
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Publisher
Guest
Yes, I picked her up and drove her to the clinic. She was too frightened to ride the bus…and the ride home would have been torture for her as she was in no condition to stand at a bus stop let alone ride a bus to her home where she was no longer welcome.
I offered to go into the treatment room with her as she was very frightened…but the clinician wouldn’t allow it since I was not her husband or father. I sat in the waiting room and prayed for her…I held “Meeting”.
When she came out I held her as she cried on my shoulder and assisted her to the car…I placed her in the passenger seat and reclined the back so she could lay down and covered her with a blanket, even though it was summer she was chilled.
I drove her to the pharmacy and went in and got her perscription filled. I then drove her to my home and helped her into the spare room where she fell into exhausted sleep. Later that evening, I fixed her something to eat and sat with her and listened to her…I offered my opinion when she asked for it…but for the most part I just listened.
She stayed with me a couple days until I could reach another Friend who had a spare room in her home for the young lady to stay. I “held her in the Light” for months afterwards.
I would do it again if asked.
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Publisher
Guest
“Viablility” and a “baby” are two different things. Your belief is “informed” by your religious teachings. I understand your position…I do not share it.
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tomarin
Guest
Okay, but if I find your position unreasonable on scientific grounds then pointing out that my beliefs are in harmony with my religion is irrelevant.
Also, I don’t think I’ve been using fetus and baby interchangably; I try to use language as clearly as possible to avoid confusion and misunderstandings.
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Publisher
Guest
If you find my “position unreasonable on scientific grounds” don’t change your position.
I do not find the answer to the question “when does the fetus become a baby” through my religious views. They assist…but they do not determine the “when” as I understand the biology taking place. I understand that brainwaves begin to occur around 8-20 weeks…since we use the term “brain dead” to determine at time the end of a life…my personal belief is that once brain activity is apparant…and perhaps consciousness…then we at least have a point to consider “life” beginning.
Before brain acitivity begins I think we are in murky water claiming we have a “living soul”…afterwards perhaps because of the brain activity…and 'consciousness" occurs we may have a place to begin…I do believe at some point between brain activity and the point where the fetus can exist outside the womb…we have a “baby”.
I am not a scientist…and science has no universal consensus on the matter as to when life begins in the womb…not “biological life”…but “human life”…including 'consciousness" and “soul”…we now have moved into the field of metaphysics…and one’s religious views do indeed guide ones belief…so it is not “irrelevant” to the discussion…religious belief DOES guide ones belief in the matter…no matter how much we wish to deny it is not so.
This is not a purely scientific discussion…we’ve been talking of “guilt” “sin” “forgiveness” “God” “salvation” “souls”…etc.
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mark_a
Guest
Much like President Obama and Secretary of State Hilary Clinton. “Safe, legal, and rare” is how they phrased it.
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