Which Protestant Faiths Permit Abortion

[CMatt25]

Much like President Obama and Secretary of State Hilary Clinton. “Safe, legal, and rare” is how they phrased it.

I think they mean as opposed to unsafe, illegal, but still here.

 

[Roy5]

I haven’t read al the postings, so I suspect I will be repetitious.

Protestants differ among themselves on abortion. The more evangelical churches, often the most critical of Catholicism, often agree more with the Church on such matters than more liberal Protestants who are likely to have a stronger ecumenical outlook.

The key word among liberal Protestants probably is freedom. They feel free to make up their own minds. I know of one Protestant family, for example, in which the wife had an abortion after giving birth to four children. Why? The wife had developed major medical problems and the doctor warned her that another pregnancy could kill her and the baby. There also was the economic crunch. They decided they wanted to give the four the best in education and that more childen would make that less likely.

  I know of another Protestant couple where the wife had been raped as a teenager, and she had had an abortion well before their marriage. And in another instance a downs syndrome teen had been gang-raped, became pregnant, and the parents decided that an abortion was the only way of avoiding a myriad of serious problems that would continue for many years. They felt assured that the fetus, if truly a baby (there is debate among many, of course, as to when a fetus becomes a baby), would go directly to heaven "and may actually be better off than the rest of us" - quoting the Dad as he sought to justify the abortion. 

  What troubles many Protestants about the Catholic position is that its opposition to all abortions is paired with its sharp condemnation of all birth control except the church-approved variety, which can seem unnatural in a happy marriage relationship but also is not very reliable. 

   What many Catholics may overlook is the Church's position on abortion seems ineffective. Statistics that are available suggest that abortions are as common among Catholics as non-Catholics. 

   Off topic a bit, but I recently saw a Pew poll which asked four groups how they felt about same-sexual marriage. Mainline Protestants opposed it by a narrow margim - roughly 46% against, 43% for, or some such figure. Evangelical Protestants and Black Protestants both were heavily against it. Only Catholics favored it, by a small margin, something like 45% for, 42% against. That seems to say something about the way in which millions of Catholics regard the mandates of the Church

 . I suspect this refers to abortion as well. Many Catholics apparently feel that abortions should be very rare and very safe, but should be permitted with certain restrictions that some states have imposed - e. g., notification of parents when a teenager is involved, showing a film of an embyro in the womb, requiring a time for reconsideration before an abortion is performed, etc.

 

[crazzeto]

Yes, I picked her up and drove her to the clinic. She was too frightened to ride the bus…and the ride home would have been torture for her as she was in no condition to stand at a bus stop let alone ride a bus to her home where she was no longer welcome.

I offered to go into the treatment room with her as she was very frightened…but the clinician wouldn’t allow it since I was not her husband or father. I sat in the waiting room and prayed for her…I held “Meeting”.

When she came out I held her as she cried on my shoulder and assisted her to the car…I placed her in the passenger seat and reclined the back so she could lay down and covered her with a blanket, even though it was summer she was chilled.

I drove her to the pharmacy and went in and got her perscription filled. I then drove her to my home and helped her into the spare room where she fell into exhausted sleep. Later that evening, I fixed her something to eat and sat with her and listened to her…I offered my opinion when she asked for it…but for the most part I just listened.

She stayed with me a couple days until I could reach another Friend who had a spare room in her home for the young lady to stay. I “held her in the Light” for months afterwards.

I would do it again if asked.

OK, so you were quite a bit more involved with this abortion than you let on. In fact you had the opportunity, potentially to stop it. You should have refused to take her to the clinic, and pick her up from it. You’re right, that is a sin, in so far as cooperating with evil (the evil of abortion). I sincerely hope you don’t decide to “retain” that sin, it would be better for you and everyone for you to ask for forgiveness.

Offering her comfort after the fact, and hopefully direction to spiritual and emotional healing after the fact would have been something else entirely.

 

[Publisher]

OK, so you were quite a bit more involved with this abortion than you let on. In fact you had the opportunity, potentially to stop it. You should have refused to take her to the clinic, and pick her up from it. You’re right, that is a sin, in so far as cooperating with evil (the evil of abortion). I sincerely hope you don’t decide to “retain” that sin, it would be better for you and everyone for you to ask for forgiveness.

Offering her comfort after the fact, and hopefully direction to spiritual and emotional healing after the fact would have been something else entirely.

No, I was not “not more involved with this abortion than” I “let on”…I did not try to hide my involvement. I could have refused to take her to the clinic…but I did not…nor would I refuse. I don’t believe I indicated taking her was a sin…I understood others believed it was…and IF there was any guilt, I accepted it freely. I will “retain” this experience for the rest of my life…to have refused to assist someone in need would have been a true sin…to abandon someone who needed MORE than a ride to have a medical procedure was not something I would do…I could not refuse a plea for help…my faith prohibits that.

I would do it again…I am now in my mid 50’s…this occured in my early 40’s…my resolve has only been strengthened by your post…thank you.

Peace to you.

 

[JonNC]

Jon, Carlan was talking about birth control here, not abortion.

Does the LCMS have any official statements about birth control? I have read the “sex ed” series from CPH (Learning About Sex) which is fully accepting, without exception for abortifacients, of artifical birth control. Has anything changed in the last decade?

Hi Elizabeth,
Regardless of the issue, my point to Carlan - and I could have stated it more charitably, I must admit - there is no “Protestant Church”. Never has been. And so, no event of the type could have occurred.

As for the LCMS and contraception:

Q. What is the LCMS stance on voluntary contraception?

A. The LCMS does not have an official position on “voluntary contraception” or voluntary childlessness. However, in its 1981 report on Human Sexuality: A Theological Perspective (which has been “commended to the Synod for study and guidance”–1983 Res. 3-15), the Synod’s Commission on Theology and Church Relations makes the following statement: In view of the Biblical command and the blessing to “be fruitful and multiply,” it is to be expected that marriage will not ordinarily be voluntarily childless. But, in the absence of Scriptural prohibition, there need be no objection to contraception within a marital union which is, as a whole, fruitful. Moreover, once we grant the appropriateness of contraception, we will also recognize that sterilization may under some circumstances be an acceptable form of contraception. Because of its relatively permanent nature, sterilization is perhaps less desirable than less-far reaching forms of contraception. However, there should be no moral objection to it, especially for couples who already have children and who now seek to devote themselves to the rearing of those children, for those who have been advised by a physician that the birth of another child would be hazardous to the health of the mother, or for those who for reasons of age, physical disability, or illness are not able to care for additional children. Indeed, there may be special circumstances which would persuade a Christian husband and wife that it would be more responsible and helpful to all concerned, under God, not to have children. Whatever the particular circumstances, Christians dare not take lightly decisions in this area of their life together. They should examine their motives thoroughly and honestly and take care lest their decisions be informed by a desire merely to satisfy selfish interests.

With respect to voluntary childlessness in general, we should say that while there may be special reasons which would persuade a Christian husband and wife to limit the size of their family, they should remember at all times how easy it is for them simply to permit their union to turn inward and refuse to take up the task of sharing in God’s creative activity. Certainly Christians will not give as a reason for childlessness the sorry state of the world and the fear of bringing a child into such a world. We are not to forget the natural promise embedded in the fruitfulness of marriage. To bear and rear children can be done, finally, as an act of faith and hope in God who has promised to supply us with all that we “need to support this body and life.”

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Actually Jon, don’t know. It is some thing I heard said somewhere, that before the 3o’ts, it was frowned upon, and later allowed or approved. Perhaps there is someone out there who can educate me on it. Thank you for calling me on it, I stand corrected. I certainly must watch such comments. Peace, Carlan

My apology, Carlan. My repsonse was stated a bit less charitably than it should have been.

Jon

 

[lil_flower_luv]

No, I was not “not more involved with this abortion than” I “let on”…I did not try to hide my involvement. I could have refused to take her to the clinic…but I did not…nor would I refuse. I don’t believe I indicated taking her was a sin…I understood others believed it was…and IF there was any guilt, I accepted it freely. I will “retain” this experience for the rest of my life…to have refused to assist someone in need would have been a true sin…to abandon someone who needed MORE than a ride to have a medical procedure was not something I would do…I could not refuse a plea for help…my faith prohibits that.

I would do it again…I am now in my mid 50’s…this occured in my early 40’s…my resolve has only been strengthened by your post…thank you.

Peace to you.

My aunt went through something similar. She was the one who took her friend to the clinic; picked her up. I think it is one of the biggest regrets of her life. You see, at that point, my aunt’s friend thought she had no other choice. Most people think that way. And my aunt knew that it was her duty as a true friend to help her in her time of need. But did bringing her to the abortion clinic do anything to help the situation…help my aunt’s friend? No. In fact, it doubled both of their problems. There are many side effects to abortion; both physical and psychological. Some women don’t deal with the psychological ones until many years after their abortions. But there is always something missing. Always an emptiness remaining. My aunt may have not known that day what she was doing/participating in, but there was that nagging sense of regret. A sense that she did something terribly, terribly wrong. I won’t even begin to tell you what her friend went through.

Did my aunt do something wrong? Yes, not just because she assisted in bringing a tiny human being to it’s death. Because she brought a friend to a place that causes our Lord to weep. A place that dehumanizes human beings, the same way the Holocaust dehumanized Jews, or slavery dehumanized African Americans.

Now is not the time to say you would “do it again.” In your heart of hearts, you know it was wrong. I know the pain of abortion remains long after the actual abortion. And to want an abortion shows that there must be some initial pain and deep hurt. Think about it. Pray on it. And ask God how the situation could have been better handled. You may not be feeling that pain or regret I was speaking of, but you can bet your bottom dollar your friend was, is, and will be.

God’s peace to you.

 

[ElisabethM]

I have sat and held hands with a couple women who made their decision…against my counsel…to terminate their pregnancy. I have driven them to the procedure because their family refused to assist them…I chose to bear part of their burden…I could not “throw them to the wolves” and say “You’re on your own in this.”…they were already alone in ways I could never fathom…I chose to bear a measure of their guilt…I could not turn them away when they asked for my help.

Why would you counsel them against an abortion and why would they be in such pain over the decision if you, and apparently they, were convinced the life within them was not a human being?

I had no doubts concerning whether “it was a baby” or not…it was early on in the pregnancy…

What is so agonizing about ending a pregnancy that is “not a baby”?

3 “Publisher” quotes from today:

“I will bear the guilt of that decision”

and IF there was any guilt, I accepted it freely

I don’t have guilt

Keep trying to convince yourself.

“Worked harder”…like tying her up and locking her in a closet until she was full term so she could adopt out the child?

No, just start by refusing to be complicit by driving her to the abortion clinic. But that is a moot point since you see no difference in taking her to the dentist for a tooth extraction and taking her to abortion clinic for a pregnancy extraction.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

But that is a moot point since you see no difference in taking her to the dentist for a tooth extraction and taking her to abortion clinic for a pregnancy extraction.

It really is so sad, isn’t it? What’s even more sad is Publisher’s situation isn’t the first one I’ve heard about.

Did you ever get that feeling while praying at an abortion clinic to yell out to a girl walking in, “PLEASE carry the baby full term! I’ll take it! Please! I’LL TAKE IT!!” :bighanky:

 

[crazzeto]

No, I was not “not more involved with this abortion than” I “let on”…I did not try to hide my involvement. I could have refused to take her to the clinic…but I did not…nor would I refuse. I don’t believe I indicated taking her was a sin…I understood others believed it was…and IF there was any guilt, I accepted it freely. I will “retain” this experience for the rest of my life…to have refused to assist someone in need would have been a true sin…to abandon someone who needed MORE than a ride to have a medical procedure was not something I would do…I could not refuse a plea for help…my faith prohibits that.

I would do it again…I am now in my mid 50’s…this occured in my early 40’s…my resolve has only been strengthened by your post…thank you.

Peace to you.

Why is it you say you oppose abortion? At least oppose it at the point at which you’ve determained you feel like it has a soul? Think about it, I suspect the answer is because you feel like at this point it’s murder right? It’s evil?

Well let me turn this around, what if instead you were instead driving someone to meet “some people” who were going to murder him? Lets say you knew this is what was going to happen, but your involvment was no greater than it was in the case of this abortion.

Do you still think such an act would be free of sin? If so, and if you do truely beleive in “pro-life” at the point which you say you do… Then how can you say there was no sin? And if there was a sin, how can you say you freely accept it as (any kind of) a Christian? Christ came for the remission of sins, he came for healing. Please, seek him for the healing he offers.

God be with you,

 

[Bold_Sexton]

I’ve known three women who’ve had abortions. Not one of them regrets their decision, and all three of them would tell you they did not WANT an abortion. They felt they NEEDED an abortion, and all of them would never consider it a form of birth control. All three are intelligent, successful, professionals who have gone on to be married and have families. Purely anecdotal but that is my experience with the issue.

 

[gmcbroom]

Bold Sexton,
While my experience is different I knew 2 women that had the procedure done and were not quite the same later. it just goes to show that people are different. As for me I think the issue is that all churches condemn abortion, its just that some are more vocal about it than others. In the end the Death penalty is wrong whether applied to criminals or the unborn. That is truly what this is all about…the death penalty and thou shall not kill. As for me atleast in this country I reside in Abortion has so polarized the government that nothing can ever be done about it no matter what political party is involved. Sad but true. Just brininging it up in a campaign can destroy all momentum in it. That benefits none.

 

[ElisabethM]

I would do it again…I am now in my mid 50’s…this occurred in my early 40’s…my resolve has only been strengthened by your post…thank you.

Peace to you.

Sadly, all this shows is that once one gives in to sin, it is hard to turn back. With every sin committed, unless and until there is sincere repentance, hardness of heart sets in. And the greater the unrepented sin, the greater the hardness of heart and difficulty to turn back.

Same with this story from Bold Sexton:

I’ve known three women who’ve had abortions. Not one of them regrets their decision, and all three of them would tell you they did not WANT an abortion. They felt they NEEDED an abortion, and all of them would never consider it a form of birth control. All three are intelligent, successful, professionals who have gone on to be married and have families. Purely anecdotal but that is my experience with the issue.

But God has not given up on you yet and from your writings it is obvious your conscience is not yet completely darkened. Your doubts about the rectitude of what you have done are very apparent, albeit stuffed down in your soul pretty deep and not so apparent to yourself.

Now is the time to return to God because your time to repent will not last forever.

 

[ElisabethM]

I agree that how a person views an evil does not make it less evil…you define what acts are “evil” based on Catholic belief…any belief contrary to Catholic belief…no matter what it is is wrong as the Catholic church is right. If those of us believed the Catholic church was right…we’d be Catholic…but we do not believe the church speaks authoratively in regard to issues which are considered extremly personal. It is your belief to define others beliefs in ways that make sense to you…right or wrong…they are your beliefs.

The fallacy with this argument is that you are positing the Catholic Church and your Protestant tradition on the same level. All Protestant groups came from the Catholic Church, leaving behind many wonderful things including Christ’s authority and promise to lead His Church into all truth.

Christ established His Church on earth and empowered Her with Truth. He gave the Church leaders and teachers so not every individual would have to figure out for himself how to live in the world on the way to heaven. The authority of the Church is like a boat that carries us safely through life. Protestants left the boat and try to build their own–each group a little different design. But none of those Protestant boats are the same as the original–all are less.

So don’t look to your Protestant tradition for the answers. Look to the Church your tradition came from. Yes, come back to the Barque of Peter and stop worrying about figuring out your own morality. There’s too much to do in this world to waste time rebuilding the boat.

 

[humble_maid]

What church allows or denies any man to do anything? It implies that the church has policing power over its members. A 9 year old girl has no political power so does she have different rules applied to her then the Speaker of the US House of Rpresentatives?

Can someone please tell me where this happened and the details of this 9 year old girl’s story? How was she punished. I assume that she was raped. Whatever happened to her assailant?

Thank you.

 

[humble_maid]

At fourteen I knew a girl who got pregnant. She came from a ‘very’ disfunctional family. Her mother had children with several different men and her elder brothers and sisters were dealing and consuming hard core drugs. When she was only five years of age her elder siblings introduced her to drugs; it started with pot then she eventually went on to cocaine and crack. She was lost. As a confirmed catholic, I befriended her and saw the need to help her get on the right track. She started to do well in school but alas she found out that she was pregnant. The father was her age and completely abandonned her. Her family was living in dire conditions and she was not capable of taking care of the child. What should she have done?
By the way she still smoked and probably using drugs.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

I’ve known three women who’ve had abortions. Not one of them regrets their decision, and all three of them would tell you they did not WANT an abortion. They felt they NEEDED an abortion, and all of them would never consider it a form of birth control. All three are intelligent, successful, professionals who have gone on to be married and have families. Purely anecdotal but that is my experience with the issue.

The saddest thing about this story is that they kiied their children to make room for a “career”… This thought almost makes me weep…

Why would you counsel them against an abortion and why would they be in such pain over the decision if you, and apparently they, were convinced the life within them was not a human being?

What is so agonizing about ending a pregnancy that is “not a baby”?

3 “Publisher” quotes from today:

Keep trying to convince yourself.

No, just start by refusing to be complicit by driving her to the abortion clinic. But that is a moot point since you see no difference in taking her to the dentist for a tooth extraction and taking her to abortion clinic for a pregnancy extraction.

ElizabethM, have you ever heard the quote “If its not a baby, then you’re not pregnant”? I think it applies here. You cannot end something that doesnt exist… perhaps the linguistic engineers can come up with another term for it before it magically becomes a baby… Uterine lining cancer, perhaps? I have heard babies called “like a cancer” by the pro abortionists before, so that sounds reasonable…

Sorry, trying to be civil about this is difficult for me.

The fallacy with this argument is that you are positing the Catholic Church and your Protestant tradition on the same level. All Protestant groups came from the Catholic Church, leaving behind many wonderful things including Christ’s authority and promise to lead His Church into all truth.

Christ established His Church on earth and empowered Her with Truth. He gave the Church leaders and teachers so not every individual would have to figure out for himself how to live in the world on the way to heaven. The authority of the Church is like a boat that carries us safely through life. Protestants left the boat and try to build their own–each group a little different design. But none of those Protestant boats are the same as the original–all are less.

So don’t look to your Protestant tradition for the answers. Look to the Church your tradition came from. Yes, come back to the Barque of Peter and stop worrying about figuring out your own morality. There’s too much to do in this world to waste time rebuilding the boat.

Elizabeth gets another Bingo.

But, sadly, this thread has veered completely off topic, perhaps we could have some other people share their home churches views on abortion? That would help get this thread back on track

FSC

 

[NDfan]

Does anyone really believe that one grave evil justifies another? That’s not “getting around”, that’s plain absurd.

Not disagreeing with you Elisabeth but I would also say that no one can speak to that situation until they are faced with it. Have you personally ever dealt with being raped or had an incestuous act committed against you?? If so how did you deal with it? If not then it’s very easy to sit back and pass judgement by saying I would never do that.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

At fourteen I knew a girl who got pregnant. She came from a ‘very’ disfunctional family. Her mother had children with several different men and her elder brothers and sisters were dealing and consuming hard core drugs. When she was only five years of age her elder siblings introduced her to drugs; it started with pot then she eventually went on to cocaine and crack. She was lost. As a confirmed catholic, I befriended her and saw the need to help her get on the right track. She started to do well in school but alas she found out that she was pregnant. The father was her age and completely abandonned her. Her family was living in dire conditions and she was not capable of taking care of the child. What should she have done?
By the way she still smoked and probably using drugs.

Left the home, gave up smoking and drugs, and raised her child.

FSC

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

Not disagreeing with you Elisabeth but I would also say that no one can speak to that situation until they are faced with it. Have you personally ever dealt with being raped or had an incestuous act committed against you?? If so how did you deal with it? If not then it’s very easy to sit back and pass judgement by saying I would never do that.

I have… Being male, it is somewhat different for me, but when its your own father it tends to have an impact. But I dont understand the point of this comment… It is hard to empathize, yes. But it is not hard to understand, at least intellectually, what that person is going through.

FSC