Which Protestant Faiths Permit Abortion

[FidesSpesCarita]

I’m not missing anything. You’re saying there’s never justification for an abortion. I probably agree with you. But I could understand in certain situations where an innocent person was raped or in the case of incest that an abortion would be considered. Until you are faced with those circumstances you can’t speak as to how you would act. I think that’s the point you may be missing.

As stated above until you are faced with circumstances of that nature you can’t make a statement as to what exactly you would do. You’d like to think you would follow your faith but you never know until you are hit with it. If one person has no right to kill another then why did GOD order the Jews to kill?? How about the killing that takes place in war? How about if your child’s life is being threatened and the only way to save them is to kill another?? If you’ve ever faced any of these circumstances then please tell me how you acted. Otherwise it’s just talk and I certainly don’t mean that disrespectfully.

Two things… What I would DO in a situation has no bearing on the sin of those choices. My choice to sin is not reflective of whether it was ACTUALLY sin or not… So the “You dont know what you would do” has no bearing on this discussion.

Second, if God ever tells someone to kill their baby, then by all means, go ahead. But it has never happend (Abraham aside) and will never happen. It cannot since God has set his canon against murder (not just killing, but MURDER) and for him to advocate MURDER would mean that his word is NOT law, NOT infallible, NOT permanent, and the universe would split asunder and everything created would cease to exist (ok, kinda overly mellodrama’ed there, but still…).

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[NDfan]

Where do you get this idea that anyone is passing judgment on those who get sucked into the lies and seek an abortion. The point isn’t to pass judgment on the individual, it’s to recognize the act as being intrinsically evil. As such, there’s never a justification for it. There for one should never be a part of it, and always discourage others from seeking it out.

You are passing jugement when you make judgemental statements. Again as stated previously you can’t really speak to a situation until you are faced with it.

When someone does get one, that’s when it’s time to get them on the path of healing, with God and them selves.

I don’t believe I’ve disagreed with this statement.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

You are passing jugement when you make judgemental statements. Again as stated previously you can’t really speak to a situation until you are faced with it.

I don’t believe I’ve disagreed with this statement.

It is not judgmental to call a sin a sin. Its like calling a man male. Sin is sin is sin. Judgment would be to say that that person is going to hell for that sin. Noone can know anothers soul. We are not passing judgment, just stating fact.

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[crazzeto]

You are passing jugement when you make judgemental statements. Again as stated previously you can’t really speak to a situation until you are faced with it.

I don’t believe I’ve disagreed with this statement.

What judgmental statement did I make with regard to the victems (mother include) of abortion? Tell me where I’ve ever said anything other than “they need healing”? I have rather, recognized abortion as objectivly evil, and I do regard those propetuating the lies as fully cooperating with evil. But these are recognized truths, not judgments. As you said, God is the judge.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

You are passing jugement when you make judgemental statements. Again as stated previously you can’t really speak to a situation until you are faced with it.

I don’t believe I’ve disagreed with this statement.

And FTR, I understand where you are coming from, and I honestly appreciate your being involved in this discussion. Thank you. Especially for supporting these women who make this judgment call… wrong though it may be, they need people like you and publisher…

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[NDfan]

I like the second part of your post… The first is where I cringe. Its the attitude held by so many people that they do not want this child they have created. That is one of the great sorrows of our society, IMHO…

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I’m not sure why you would cringe at the first part. My only point was we were starting to mix 2 different conversations.

 

[tomarin]

If you find my “position unreasonable on scientific grounds” don’t change your position.

I do not find the answer to the question “when does the fetus become a baby” through my religious views. They assist…but they do not determine the “when” as I understand the biology taking place. I understand that brainwaves begin to occur around 8-20 weeks…since we use the term “brain dead” to determine at time the end of a life…my personal belief is that once brain activity is apparant…and perhaps consciousness…then we at least have a point to consider “life” beginning.

Before brain acitivity begins I think we are in murky water claiming we have a “living soul”…afterwards perhaps because of the brain activity…and 'consciousness" occurs we may have a place to begin…I do believe at some point between brain activity and the point where the fetus can exist outside the womb…we have a “baby”.

I am not a scientist…and science has no universal consensus on the matter as to when life begins in the womb…not “biological life”…but “human life”…including 'consciousness" and “soul”…we now have moved into the field of metaphysics…and one’s religious views do indeed guide ones belief…so it is not “irrelevant” to the discussion…religious belief DOES guide ones belief in the matter…no matter how much we wish to deny it is not so.

This is not a purely scientific discussion…we’ve been talking of “guilt” “sin” “forgiveness” “God” “salvation” “souls”…etc.

It’s an irrelevant objection to my argument that the biology confirms the pro-life position more than the pro-choice one, (or at least creates enough doubt about the pro-choice position that it should give morally prudent people pause). It’s a non-sequitor, actually, to say as you do that because I’m Catholic you don’t have to take my arguments from biological evidence seriously.

Obviously I agree that one cannot put a soul under a microscope but if certain facts about embryology appear to confirm my argument I don’t see any reason why they should be disallowed. The question of where life begins is partly a moral/religious/metaphysical and partly a biological question – that is my position so I do not see myself changing my position at all. I see myself questioning the soundness of the pro-choice position on the grounds of science, presuming that whatever our disagreements about religion we will agree that science is a compelling and trustworthy source of information about the physical universe.

 

[crazzeto]

And FTR, I understand where you are coming from, and I honestly appreciate your being involved in this discussion. Thank you. Especially for supporting these women who make this judgment call… wrong though it may be, they need people like you and publisher…

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I can’t really agree whole heartedly, particularly since the support Publisher gave (in particular) was to give the lady a ride to the clinic. Women don’t need that kind of support.

On the other hand, should they be provided spiritual and emotional support after it’s done (with out your involvement), sure I can go along with that part. But I can’t really support lauding cooperation with something which is intrinsically evil.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

I can’t really agree whole heartedly, particularly since the support Publisher gave (in particular) was to give the lady a ride to the clinic. Women don’t need that kind of support.

On the other hand, should they be provided spiritual and emotional support after it’s done (with out your involvement), sure I can go along with that part. But I can’t really support lauding cooperation with something which is intrinsically evil.

Than k you for the correction, that was what I was referring to. Not the ride.

People like me tend to be full of truth with little love. We need people like you to counter the potential “pushing” away from the truth that this lack of love can effect.

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[NDfan]

“Never”, is an aboslute. Think of it this way, would it be fair to kill a rapists child for the crime of it’s father? Would it be fair to kill one of the victems (born) childeren to pay for the crime? What makes it fair kill the unborn child of the victem?

I would say never. But I personally have never been faced with that situation. Until then the only thing you and I can say is we would try to follow our faith and have our actions be representative of it.

I understand rape is tramadic, killing and innocent does nothing to make it better. There is no justification, no not even for rape or incest. Even in these cases, the unborn child is still an innocent.

You’re beating a dead horse here crazetto. We’ve established that abortion is wrong. But you can’t speak to the actions of another until you are faced with those circumstances yourself. That’s the only point I am making.

Again, you’re missing the point, it really doesn’t matter. The truth wouldn’t change if I was a woman, and raped, it really wouldn’t.

The truth wouldn’t change. But the actual course of action you take may be different once you face that situation.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

I would say never. But I personally have never been faced with that situation. Until then the only thing you and I can say is we would try to follow our faith and have our actions be representative of it.

You’re beating a dead horse here crazetto. We’ve established that abortion is wrong. But you can’t speak to the actions of another until you are faced with those circumstances yourself. That’s the only point I am making.

The truth wouldn’t change. But the actual course of action you take may be different once you face that situation.

The course you take has no bearing on which is the right course. here we are talking about the RIGHT course to take…

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[crazzeto]

I would say never. But I personally have never been faced with that situation. Until then the only thing you and I can say is we would try to follow our faith and have our actions be representative of it.

You’re beating a dead horse here crazetto. We’ve established that abortion is wrong. But you can’t speak to the actions of another until you are faced with those circumstances yourself. That’s the only point I am making.

The truth wouldn’t change. But the actual course of action you take may be different once you face that situation.

Yet you keep trying, erroneously, to modify the truth which you your self profess in this post with the circomstances of the pregancy. You’re missing the funadmental axiom of Christianity, nothing changes the truth. Because of this we can have cititude as to what is sin, and what is holy.

Trying to apply these filters as you are, is a device the devil uses to lead people into sin. There for, it is proper to say “forget the circomstances, it really doesn’t matter the act is simply evil”. This is the truth, and nothing will change it.

This is not a judgment on my part of the people you know who got abortions. God will be their judge. Rather, it is quite simply reminding you, and anyone else reading, that nothing changes the truth that abortion is henously evil. Again, (worth repeating since you keep trying to make this a judgment) I’m not saying the woman you know are giong to hell, I’m not even saying the abortion doctors who performed the procedure are going to hell. Only God can make that judgment, and Lord knows God is going to give these people every chance to repent and be saved. That is after all, the whole point of salvation history, it’s the whole point of the cross.

 

[NDfan]

Two things… What I would DO in a situation has no bearing on the sin of those choices. My choice to sin is not reflective of whether it was ACTUALLY sin or not… So the “You dont know what you would do” has no bearing on this discussion.

It absolutely does have a bearing on this discussion. No one is dismissing the fact that abortion is a sin. But to sit back and make a statement about what you would do in a situation that you’ve never faced is absurd. Then to make a judgemental statement towards someone that was faced with that situation is a further absurdity.

Second, if God ever tells someone to kill their baby, then by all means, go ahead. But it has never happend (Abraham aside) and will never happen. It cannot since God has set his canon against murder (not just killing, but MURDER) and for him to advocate MURDER would mean that his word is NOT law, NOT infallible, NOT permanent, and the universe would split asunder and everything created would cease to exist (ok, kinda overly mellodrama’ed there, but still…).

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It has never happened?? Have you read the OT? How about when the Israelites first invaded the land of Canaan and were ordered to kill everyone including the babies? Was GOD going against HIS own law or was he exercising HIS judgement?? Killing and murder are the same thing so I’m not sure why you are trying to separate them by capitalizing murder.

 

[NDfan]

It is not judgmental to call a sin a sin. Its like calling a man male. Sin is sin is sin. Judgment would be to say that that person is going to hell for that sin. Noone can know anothers soul. We are not passing judgment, just stating fact.

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I don’t disagree here that telling someone they may have committed a sin is speaking truth. But when you take it a step further and start commenting that you personally would never do that then you start becoming judgemental.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

It absolutely does have a bearing on this discussion. No one is dismissing the fact that abortion is a sin. But to sit back and make a statement about what you would do in a situation that you’ve never faced is absurd. Then to make a judgemental statement towards someone that was faced with that situation is a further absurdity.

It has never happened?? Have you read the OT? How about when the Israelites first invaded the land of Canaan and were ordered to kill everyone including the babies? Was GOD going against HIS own law or was he exercising HIS judgement?? Killing and murder are the same thing so I’m not sure why you are trying to separate them by capitalizing murder.

The Canaanites were a people that lacked righteousness. And killing is not murder. Murder is the unjust killing of an undeserving person. Killing is a death called for by justice. All truth and justice come from God. VAST difference there.

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[FidesSpesCarita]

I don’t disagree here that telling someone they may have committed a sin is speaking truth. But when you take it a step further and start commenting that you personally would never do that then you start becoming judgemental.

Excellent point. I cannot argue with this. And for me to find something I actually cannot find a logical argument against is a rarity (not saying that they are always GOOD arguments, but I can usually find something)

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[NDfan]

What judgmental statement did I make with regard to the victems (mother include) of abortion? Tell me where I’ve ever said anything other than “they need healing”? I have rather, recognized abortion as objectivly evil, and I do regard those propetuating the lies as fully cooperating with evil. But these are recognized truths, not judgments. As you said, God is the judge.

Crazzeto I’m not saying you personally are passing judgement. I’ve been in agreement with you on the things you are stating for the most part. The only thing I’ve ever added is that we can’t speak to an action we would take in a particular situation until we are faced with that situation. When we start going down that path we become judgemental. Again not saying you have done that but your implication is that you personally would never have an abortion. Maybe you would not. But you don’t really know how you would feel or react in a dire situation until you are in that situation.

Let me just say for the record that I applaud everyone here who takes such a firm stance on abortion. I applaud the Catholic church for being the first to speak out against abortion and to be an advocate for the child. I don’t think we could ever be bold enough on that topic in our teachings. It’s a disgrace that our society has slanted that way.

 

[NDfan]

The course you take has no bearing on which is the right course. here we are talking about the RIGHT course to take…

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ABSOLUTELY!!! But we can’t always be sure we would take the right course is all I am saying. We can only hope and pray that we would follow our faith.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

ABSOLUTELY!!! But we can’t always be sure we would take the right course is all I am saying. We can only hope and pray that we would follow our faith.

Thanks again for keeping us honest. It is refreshing.

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[NDfan]

Yet you keep trying, erroneously, to modify the truth which you your self profess in this post with the circomstances of the pregancy. You’re missing the funadmental axiom of Christianity, nothing changes the truth. Because of this we can have cititude as to what is sin, and what is holy.

I’m not trying to modify any truth. Please cite one example of a modification I personally made to any truth in this discussion.

Trying to apply these filters as you are, is a device the devil uses to lead people into sin. There for, it is proper to say “forget the circomstances, it really doesn’t matter the act is simply evil”. This is the truth, and nothing will change it.

I’m not applying filters. I’m merely point out that circumstances lead to decisions. Those decisions may be wrong and often one will state that there were extenuating circumstances. We all know that doesn’t right the wrong. I don’t believe I’ve ever stated in any of my posts on this discussion that any circumstances make abortion right. What I have postulated is that extenuating circumstances lead people to make wrong decisions. So for one to state they would never do that no matter what the circumstances are is ridiculous because you don’t really know until you are faced with it.

This is not a judgment on my part of the people you know who got abortions. God will be their judge. Rather, it is quite simply reminding you, and anyone else reading, that nothing changes the truth that abortion is henously evil. Again, (worth repeating since you keep trying to make this a judgment) I’m not saying the woman you know are giong to hell, I’m not even saying the abortion doctors who performed the procedure are going to hell. Only God can make that judgment, and Lord knows God is going to give these people every chance to repent and be saved. That is after all, the whole point of salvation history, it’s the whole point of the cross.

I agree completely with this statement and always have. If I accused you personally of being judgemental then forgive me. I meant it in a more generic way.