Which Protestant Faiths Permit Abortion

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I appreciate that we can discuss our issues with this topic but may I remind us all that the thread is about Which Protestant Faiths Permit Abortion. I would like any publication or documentation which clearly shows or states the stance on abortion. I already have provided a link for the CC’s view in a previous post. Thank you.🙂
 
The Canaanites were a people that lacked righteousness. And killing is not murder. Murder is the unjust killing of an undeserving person. Killing is a death called for by justice. All truth and justice come from God. VAST difference there.

FSC
Killing absolutely is murder. The commandment is thou shalt not kill. The hebrew word used means the same thing. You are mixing human law with GOD’s law.

If I accidentally hit someone with my car and they die I have killed them. That is murder any way you slice it. It wasn’t pre-meditated but it most certainly is murder. We as a society try to apply varying degrees to lessen the nature of the act. But under GOD’s law I’ve still violated one of HIS commands.
 
I appreciate that we can discuss our issues with this topic but may I remind us all that the thread is about Which Protestant Faiths Permit Abortion. I would like any publication or documentation which clearly shows or states the stance on abortion. I already have provided a link for the CC’s view in a previous post. Thank you.🙂
I believe one was posted for the Methodist church and I posted one for the LDS church even though I’m not LDS.
 
I’m not trying to modify any truth. Please cite one example of a modification I personally made to any truth in this discussion.
It’s in the language you keep using, in addition to your previous statements about the women you know who had abortions are are (as far as you know) perfectly ok with it. This is laugnage which tends to let some one thing “well usually abortion is bad, but maybe because my case was unfair then it’s OK”. You’d be amazed the justifications people use to support abortions. There was a young lady in Family Life who was trying to convince her self that abortion in her case would be OK, because she’s 16 years old, got pregnant to a black man, her mom (according to her) would not approve of a “mulatto” baby, and she was already upset enough with her. So in her mind, well usually abortions bad. But in my case, I’m convincing my self that it’s going to make everything better.

Abortion can never “make it better”, thus it’s very expediant to use language which makes it clear, abortion isn’t giong to make it better. This doesn’t mean condeming someone, this doesnt mean making them think they’re automatically damning them selves to hell, with no hope of return (this would be a sin to do), rather it means offering them loving support and the unfiltered, unmodified, frankly unsoftened truth of what it is they’re considering.
I’m not applying filters. I’m merely point out that circumstances lead to decisions. Those decisions may be wrong and often one will state that there were extenuating circumstances. We all know that doesn’t right the wrong. I don’t believe I’ve ever stated in any of my posts on this discussion that any circumstances make abortion right. What I have postulated is that extenuating circumstances lead people to make wrong decisions. So for one to state they would never do that no matter what the circumstances are is ridiculous because you don’t really know until you are faced with it.
But you were applying filters and modifiers. “Until you’ve been raped, you don’t know”. That’s a filter, it’s a modifier. It states “you can’t say abortion in the case of rape is bad, because you don’t know what it’s like”. The response is:

It doesn’t matter what it’s like, it’s intrisniclly evil. There for there’s no reason to consider the rape as part of the question.

I’m not saying don’t give the poor girl a shoulder to cry on, I’m not saying blame her for the rape, and again I’m not saying tell her she’s going to burn forever for getting an abortion. I am saying offer her love, I am saying offer her support, but I’m also saying stay firm in telling her, an abortion isn’t going to make her rape any better.

In fact, if there’s any possible cosmic justice in this terrible situation, it’s that the product of the horrendous crime may grow up, to be a wonderful person. Better than their father, who knows… They may even grow up to be a powerful and just D.A., protecting other women from the horrors their mother experienced.

God can make good of a terrible situation, so why not give him the chance by helping ensure the innocent life is spared?
I agree completely with this statement and always have. If I accused you personally of being judgemental then forgive me. I meant it in a more generic way.
 
You must know my “heart of hearts” better than I. She and I are still in touch…I don’t think you’d like her answer any more than you like mine.
NO, I do not know your heart better than you. But God does. And He would have had it all done differently. You and your friend are in my prayers. How tragic you have to live with that on your souls! May God grant you peace.

P.S. to others on this thread: If you are a Christian and keep defending abortion, get out your Bible.

Deuteronomy 30:19: "I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live".

Jeremiah 1:5: Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations."

Psalm 139:13: "For thou didst form my inward parts, thou didst knit me together in my mother’s womb."
 
Killing absolutely is murder. The commandment is thou shalt not kill. The hebrew word used means the same thing. You are mixing human law with GOD’s law.

If I accidentally hit someone with my car and they die I have killed them. That is murder any way you slice it. It wasn’t pre-meditated but it most certainly is murder. We as a society try to apply varying degrees to lessen the nature of the act. But under GOD’s law I’ve still violated one of HIS commands.
I cant find the hebrew to quote on here, but the actual word is MURDER. Not kill. And the two are very different. It is a difference of INTENT. Killing may be accidental. Murder is never an accident. Accidental death is not murder. If a tree falls on you, the tree did not murder you. Murder implies intent. Kill does not.

FSC

Edit: Hebrew Ex 20:13 לֹ֥֖א תִּֿרְצָֽ֖ח׃

Thou shalt not Murder. Literally to dash in pieces, i.e. kill (a human being), especially to murder:–
put to death, kill, (man-)slay(-er), murder(-er).
 
But, back on topic anyone?

Documentary evidence of various churches stances on abortion would be nice.
 
But, back on topic anyone?

Documentary evidence of various churches stances on abortion would be nice.
The problem is that most of the mainline (liberal) Protestant denominations never come out and say “we believe abortion is acceptable.” They dance on the head of a pin through 300 pages of a document and when you’re done, you STILL don’t know what they believe about it. Except that if they have to do such dancing, they don’t oppose abortion.
 
Killing absolutely is murder. The commandment is thou shalt not kill. The hebrew word used means the same thing. You are mixing human law with GOD’s law.

If I accidentally hit someone with my car and they die I have killed them. That is murder any way you slice it. It wasn’t pre-meditated but it most certainly is murder. We as a society try to apply varying degrees to lessen the nature of the act. But under GOD’s law I’ve still violated one of HIS commands.
 
The problem is that most of the mainline (liberal) Protestant denominations never come out and say “we believe abortion is acceptable.” They dance on the head of a pin through 300 pages of a document and when you’re done, you STILL don’t know what they believe about it. Except that if they have to do such dancing, they don’t oppose abortion.
Ok, do the Lutherans have any documents accepted (relatively) church-wide that describe the nature (sinful or not) of abortion?
 
It’s an irrelevant objection to my argument that the biology confirms the pro-life position more than the pro-choice one, (or at least creates enough doubt about the pro-choice position that it should give morally prudent people pause). It’s a non-sequitor, actually, to say as you do that because I’m Catholic you don’t have to take my arguments from biological evidence seriously.

Obviously I agree that one cannot put a soul under a microscope but if certain facts about embryology appear to confirm my argument I don’t see any reason why they should be disallowed. The question of where life begins is partly a moral/religious/metaphysical and partly a biological question – that is my position so I do not see myself changing my position at all. I see myself questioning the soundness of the pro-choice position on the grounds of science, presuming that whatever our disagreements about religion we will agree that science is a compelling and trustworthy source of information about the physical universe.
From what I have read…and the discussions I have been in the “pro-life” position appeals to a more “emotional” response and questions “what if”…“it could be”…"give morally prudent people pause(suggesting that if one does not share the stated view one is not “morally prudent”)…etc.

I understand you question the “soundness” of the “pro-choice postion”…and it gets down to the religious views one holds…there is no getting around that. Science has not reached a consensus on the issue of “when is a fetus a baby”. Science offers evidence and for the most part asks that one draws whatever conclusion one can from the evidence presented. So we’re back to one’s religious beliefs guiding one’s position.

I cannot morally demand that my position be held by someone who views that the perponderance of evidence leans more toward a “pro-choice” stance than a “pro-life” stance.

I can make the decisions for myself…I cannot make the decisions for others. I could cajole, insult, cast aspersions upon their moral character, call them “murderers” and the like to sway them to my position…but my faith prohibits such behavior…and in such behavior I find that morally objectionable.

I am a person of conscience…understood from the Catholic position I am very deficient in the area of a “well formed concience”…I do not take my position lightly…I don’t claim to know for a fact at what point a “fetus” becomes a “baby”…my beliefs govern at what time I would consider it to occur and I must live within that area of shadow…and if I can’t live within the shadow…I need to modify my belief system…so far I am not completely uncomfortable being in the shadow of doubt…I would not consent for my wife to terminate her pregnancy…when she was alive we shared similar belief concerning the matter…but if others take a differnt opinion and they are comfortable with that opinion AND their opinion is not in dire conflict with mine…I cannot condemn them…I can question them and seek to sway them to my position…but the whole point of being “pro-choice” is CHOICE…for one self. I do not…I will not DEMAND my position be adhered to to the exclusion of the other person from my life…my assistance…my prayers or welcoming them into the Meeting I attend.

“I see myself questioning the soundness of the pro-life position on the grounds of science, presuming that whatever our disagreements about religion we will agree that science is a compelling and trustworthy source of information about the physical universe.” But we will disagree what that “trustworthy source” implies as it is interpreted in our lives.

I am not completely comfortable with my position of “pro-choce”…it carries with it a weight of responsibility that at times is crushing…but I am very uncomfortable with taking a “pro-life” position, which in my estimation does not demand a response to the “greys” of life…it sees life as “black and white”…and it demonizes men and women who make difficult choices…it does not allow for healing, compassion, mercy…instead based on what I have read here, it calls for condemnation, ostricizing, anger, unfair judgemental attitudes…the “black and white” position calls for the abandonment to whatever fate a young woman finds herself once she chooses to terminate her pregnancy…I too react emotionally to such situation.

While this position does not satisfy your questions…it is the only position I can offer you…It is my postion…I can’t hold any other…I live in the “grey” and I understand the difficulty and responsibility it places on my shoulders to live “in the shadows” on imperfect knowledge of some things.
 
Ok, do the Lutherans have any documents accepted (relatively) church-wide that describe the nature (sinful or not) of abortion?
Sure, Fides. Here is the position of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2120

Here is the position of the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod. Scroll through the list of doctrinal statements to “is abortion a sin?”
wels.net/about-wels/doctrinal-statements

And the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. This is a bunch of nonsense, but they are cautiously opposed to abortion, even though they are liberal overall.
elca.org/What-We-Believe/Social-Issues/Social-Statements/Abortion.aspx
 
From what I have read…and the discussions I have been in the “pro-life” position appeals to a more “emotional” response and questions “what if”…“it could be”…"give morally prudent people pause(suggesting that if one does not share the stated view one is not “morally prudent”)…etc.

I understand you question the “soundness” of the “pro-choice postion”…and it gets down to the religious views one holds…there is no getting around that. Science has not reached a consensus on the issue of “when is a fetus a baby”. Science offers evidence and for the most part asks that one draws whatever conclusion one can from the evidence presented. So we’re back to one’s religious beliefs guiding one’s position.

I cannot morally demand that my position be held by someone who views that the perponderance of evidence leans more toward a “pro-choice” stance than a “pro-life” stance.

I can make the decisions for myself…I cannot make the decisions for others. I could cajole, insult, cast aspersions upon their moral character, call them “murderers” and the like to sway them to my position…but my faith prohibits such behavior…and in such behavior I find that morally objectionable.

I am a person of conscience…understood from the Catholic position I am very deficient in the area of a “well formed concience”…I do not take my position lightly…I don’t claim to know for a fact at what point a “fetus” becomes a “baby”…my beliefs govern at what time I would consider it to occur and I must live within that area of shadow…and if I can’t live within the shadow…I need to modify my belief system…so far I am not completely uncomfortable being in the shadow of doubt…I would not consent for my wife to terminate her pregnancy…when she was alive we shared similar belief concerning the matter…but if others take a differnt opinion and they are comfortable with that opinion AND their opinion is not in dire conflict with mine…I cannot condemn them…I can question them and seek to sway them to my position…but the whole point of being “pro-choice” is CHOICE…for one self. I do not…I will not DEMAND my position be adhered to to the exclusion of the other person from my life…my assistance…my prayers or welcoming them into the Meeting I attend.

“I see myself questioning the soundness of the pro-life position on the grounds of science, presuming that whatever our disagreements about religion we will agree that science is a compelling and trustworthy source of information about the physical universe.” But we will disagree what that “trustworthy source” implies as it is interpreted in our lives.

I am not completely comfortable with my position of “pro-choce”…it carries with it a weight of responsibility that at times is crushing…but I am very uncomfortable with taking a “pro-life” position, which in my estimation does not demand a response to the “greys” of life…it sees life as “black and white”…and it demonizes men and women who make difficult choices…it does not allow for healing, compassion, mercy…instead based on what I have read here, it calls for condemnation, ostricizing, anger, unfair judgemental attitudes…the “black and white” position calls for the abandonment to whatever fate a young woman finds herself once she chooses to terminate her pregnancy…I too react emotionally to such situation.

While this position does not satisfy your questions…it is the only position I can offer you…It is my postion…I can’t hold any other…I live in the “grey” and I understand the difficulty and responsibility it places on my shoulders to live “in the shadows” on imperfect knowledge of some things.
I don’t expect you as a Quaker to subscribe to Catholic ideas about ensoulement any more than I expect you to subscribe to Catholic views about purgatory. But if there is such a thing as natural law then it should be possible for rational beings from different religious traditions to exchange ideas and debate about whether a given act is moral without appealing to religious doctrine per se.

We both believe in souls, we both believe that God doesn’t want us to take other people’s lives unnecessarily, so I wondered A. why you felt it was okay to abort a fetus (in some situations at least) and B. whether that was a morally consistent position for a Christian to take. Part of the reason I’m questioning B is for my own sake, to see whether my own ideas about these matters are sound ones – so please don’t mistake my criticism for argumentativeness.

It seems to me like you’re not sure when life begins and are suspicious of any authority that would decide that for you. I would think that the more unsure one is about when human life begins, the more justification there would be for erring on the side of caution and being conservative about these things, but you don’t seem to see to feel that’s the case.
 
I :tiphat: to you. Far too often Catholics I think fail to understand women who make their legal choice, do so after much thought and prayer and after consultations with their doctors and perhaps even with their clergy.
Many of them felt they didn’t really have a choice, CMatt25. When a sin is signaled, it doesn’t there won’t be attenuing circumstances. But in the cases when they chose freely abortion after having been praying and giving much thought to it, I still think it’s unexcusable as it deprives a living human being (at a very early stage, though) of life. It doesn’t mean that we wish the culprit to burn in hell for all eternity! (Sorry I am replying this late, I was just unable to do it earlier.)
 
And thanks be to God the Catholic Church didn’t mind much allowing a full Catholic funeral and burial. I don’t recall the Pope stepping in and putting a stop to the Mass. In fact I recall an exchange of letters between Sen Kennedy and the Pope being read at graveside by the presiding member of hierarchy.
As for this, I don’t think it’s relevant. As to the state of the late Sen. Ted Kennedy’s soul, I leave it to God, He knows much better than any of us, you and I included.
But to advocate a sin is a sin, and the sin is to be condemned. And, what the Didache of the 2nd century had stated still is relevant today.
 
I am not completely comfortable with my position of “pro-choce”…it carries with it a weight of responsibility that at times is crushing…but I am very uncomfortable with taking a “pro-life” position, which in my estimation does not demand a response to the “greys” of life…it sees life as “black and white”…and it demonizes men and women who make difficult choices…it does not allow for healing, compassion, mercy…instead based on what I have read here, it calls for condemnation, ostricizing, anger, unfair judgemental attitudes…the “black and white” position calls for the abandonment to whatever fate a young woman finds herself once she chooses to terminate her pregnancy…I too react emotionally to such situation.

While this position does not satisfy your questions…it is the only position I can offer you…It is my postion…I can’t hold any other…I live in the “grey” and I understand the difficulty and responsibility it places on my shoulders to live “in the shadows” on imperfect knowledge of some things.
The world does live in the “grey” for the most part. We have forgotten what truly is murder. We are stuck between love and lust. Marriage has been “redefined.” Society as well. Nothing is clean cut anymore. Nothing really ever was. But there is One Truth. One Light. He dwells not in black nor white. And we strive to listen to Him. Why? Because all that makes sense is His Truth, His Love. And only He can bring true healing to us. If you are not satisfied with your pro-choice position, but would never be pro-life because you feel as if harsh judgment or no mercy or compassion would be shown, it makes complete sense as to why you are confused. You have simply been misinformed. Block out the noises of this world. Listen to the One Truth.

We, your friends on this forum, are trying to help you. Trying to help you understand what our Lord has told us. He has made it very clear. Abortion is wrong in all cases. It is evil. The devil wants our children in garbage cans!! If you haven’t already researched it, look up the reality of abortion, and what it does to both women and their babies. The Truth is ringing clear. You just have to listen to it.
 
The Seven Sisters of American Liberal Protestantism are:
  1. The Episcopal Church
  2. The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
  3. The United Methodist Church
  4. The American Baptist Church
  5. The Reformed Church in America
  6. The Presbyterian Church (USA)
  7. The United Church of Christ.
Some interpose the Disciples of Christ where I have put the Reformed Church in America.

In addition, the mainline Mennonites, the Quakers (Society of Friends) and several other smaller churches hold views similar to all these on the matter of abortion.

In most cases these churches support abortion on demand, in some cases making provision for it in the healthcare they offer church workers. In most official statements they wring their hands and express their sadness over abortion and their desire to reduce the number of abortions performed in the world, but they will not categorically state when life begins or whether the embryo has any innate right to life. In most cases they side with the right of the mother to either terminate or have a baby as a sovereign and inalienable right.
 
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