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Zundrah
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Can’t any of you understand what DD2007 is saying!? He has a very good point!
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MelanieAnne
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Zundrah, maybe we’re used to the many anti-Catholic Protestants that frequent these boards and are reacting to the statement in that way. We could be wrong, but usually we’re not. So since DD2007 isn’t coming back to enlighten us (at least not so far) maybe you’d like to give us the explanation.
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firstmode
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I think most Catholics are Christians just like I think most protestants are Christian.
But I do not think that being baptized and confirmed, but then never having a relationship with God, praying to him, caring much about him, or not thinking about him at all makes you a Christian.
I think that is one point of confusion for protestants is that the physical works of Baptism and Confirmation makes someone a Christian even if they are just doing it out of peer pressure or because everyone else in their family went through that ceremony, etc.
Protestants believe that becoming Christian is to become a Christ follower, a choice to follow Christ and apply his principles to your life.
When people speak of the “Personal Relationship” with Jesus Christ, they are saying people that mentally say “I love Jesus, I believe the Bible, God is real, I want to follow him”
He becomes an important part of their life. Even if they are lax when it comes to prayer, fasting, etc. they still made it a point to believe and love God, a Choice. They do not understand how someone can be seen as Catholic if they were water baptized as an infant and just attend church every week to mentally fade out and are not really sure if they even believe all this stuff. That is someone that protestants would say is not really a Christian and they FALSELY assume most Catholics are like that.
Most Protestants believe they are catholic Christians, part of the Universal Church of Christ which includes all people who have made the personal decision and choice to follow Jesus Christ as their God.
I know as a Protestant I do believe that Church of Christ people are saved, just confused on many subjects. I know also as a Christian I believe that Oneness Pentecostals are saved even though they do not have a full understanding of the Godhead. They still love Jesus and see him as God, the Father as God, and the Holy Spirit as God, they just see God as existing as all three because he is omniscient, but not being three separate persons. I know they love Jesus Christ very much and would die for him.
But I do not think that being baptized and confirmed, but then never having a relationship with God, praying to him, caring much about him, or not thinking about him at all makes you a Christian.
I think that is one point of confusion for protestants is that the physical works of Baptism and Confirmation makes someone a Christian even if they are just doing it out of peer pressure or because everyone else in their family went through that ceremony, etc.
Protestants believe that becoming Christian is to become a Christ follower, a choice to follow Christ and apply his principles to your life.
When people speak of the “Personal Relationship” with Jesus Christ, they are saying people that mentally say “I love Jesus, I believe the Bible, God is real, I want to follow him”
He becomes an important part of their life. Even if they are lax when it comes to prayer, fasting, etc. they still made it a point to believe and love God, a Choice. They do not understand how someone can be seen as Catholic if they were water baptized as an infant and just attend church every week to mentally fade out and are not really sure if they even believe all this stuff. That is someone that protestants would say is not really a Christian and they FALSELY assume most Catholics are like that.
Most Protestants believe they are catholic Christians, part of the Universal Church of Christ which includes all people who have made the personal decision and choice to follow Jesus Christ as their God.
I know as a Protestant I do believe that Church of Christ people are saved, just confused on many subjects. I know also as a Christian I believe that Oneness Pentecostals are saved even though they do not have a full understanding of the Godhead. They still love Jesus and see him as God, the Father as God, and the Holy Spirit as God, they just see God as existing as all three because he is omniscient, but not being three separate persons. I know they love Jesus Christ very much and would die for him.
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Zundrah
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DD2007 hasn’t been back, I know, but if you PM him the link to this thread and kindly ask him to come back I’m sure he will enlighten you.
As for me explaining what he meant to you all, I can only try;
What he means is that “most” / “some” / “a few” ( I’m sweating here!) catholics / cradle catholics are use to the daily mass and set prayers so often, that they are at times just there in body and not in spirit. I guess what I’m trying to say is that catholic don’t get the same personal “interigation” that protestants get from thier ministers at church more or less every sunday. Catholics go to mass, it is called mass for a good reason and some times the catholic mass can be a bit like a manufactering process; take the wafer and you are healed, take the wine and you are saved, go to confession and you are okay… ect…
Does this make sense? Let me say that I am not a protestant attacking the catholic church! Just understand that I am saying what I see and have heard also from other protestants. I’m not being mean, but I’m just answering you. Please don’t be upset by my post, I love you just as Christ loves his sheep. We are all his sheep and we should stay in the same flock, with our divine shepard.
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MelanieAnne
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Hi Zundrah,DD2007 hasn’t been back, I know, but if you PM him the link to this thread and kindly ask him to come back I’m sure he will enlighten you.
As for me explaining what he meant to you all, I can only try;
What he means is that “most” / “some” / “a few” ( I’m sweating here!) catholics / cradle catholics are use to the daily mass and set prayers so often, that they are at times just there in body and not in spirit. I guess what I’m trying to say is that catholic don’t get the same personal “interigation” that protestants get from thier ministers at church more or less every sunday. Catholics go to mass, it is called mass for a good reason and some times the catholic mass can be a bit like a manufactering process; take the wafer and you are healed, take the wine and you are saved, go to confession and you are okay… ect…
Does this make sense? Let me say that I am not a protestant attacking the catholic church! Just understand that I am saying what I see and have heard also from other protestants. I’m not being mean, but I’m just answering you. Please don’t be upset by my post, I love you just as Christ loves his sheep. We are all his sheep and we should stay in the same flock, with our divine shepard.
With all due respect, I’m not interested in PMing DD2007 as I believe the post left was acutely uncharitable and unChristian. Why would I want further discourse with the sort of person that uses ‘hit and run’ tactics and says mean things like that? Why would any fair minded person want anything further to do with someone like that?
As for your description of Catholics, it doesn’t sound like any Catholic I know. It does sound like the sort of stereotype that many non-Catholics, in ignorance, give to Catholics. I submit that before someone starts labeling people, they would be well advised to at least find out some facts about what they’re talking about. Or, as a corollary to the quote in my signature ~ opinion is supposed to be the RESULT of thought, not a substitute for it.
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Zundrah
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As for DD2007; we are all due to go to Chirst and no one should be ignored and deprived of the truth, so we can’t just ignore him! I have had plenty of abuse here at CAF but not once ever did I ignore anyone…
P.S. What I said about Catholics was not my view of all catholics but a view on the reasons why some (a minoroty) of catholics are empty in spirit.
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SavedbyHisBlood
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Well my Step-Dad’s mother (i guess that’d make her my Step-Grandmother?) is Lutherin, and she told me that i belonged to a cult (the Catholic Church) and i was going to Hell because of what i believed and what Church i belonged to…
I dont know if this is a feeling shared by all Lutherins or not, I’m not saying it is and i dont want to sound like i’m stereotyping at all. This is just a personal experiance.
I dont know if this is a feeling shared by all Lutherins or not, I’m not saying it is and i dont want to sound like i’m stereotyping at all. This is just a personal experiance.
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Zundrah
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This is actually a very common protestant view…Well my Step-Dad’s mother (i guess that’d make her my Step-Grandmother?) is Lutherin, and she told me that i belonged to a cult (the Catholic Church) and i was going to Hell because of what i believed and what Church i belonged to…
I dont know if this is a feeling shared by all Lutherins or not, I’m not saying it is and i dont want to sound like i’m stereotyping at all. This is just a personal experiance.
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MelanieAnne
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Not PMing someone is not the same as ignoring them. If I had someone on “ignore” I wouldn’t even read their posts.
As for your statement “What I said about Catholics was not my view of all catholics but a view on the reasons why some (a minoroty) of catholics are empty in spirit.” ~ are you talking about people you actually know? Do you have personal experience with such persons? Or is it something you are saying that you heard from someone else? So it’s basically just gossip? Because, as I said before, that does not describe any Catholic I know. It does fit the ignorant stereotype of Catholics that circulates among Protestants, including right here on this thread.
I was once a Protestant, but I never felt the need to bad-mouth Catholics to justify myself the way far-too-many Protestants seem to need to do. It is the height of hypocrisy for such persons to call anyone else “unChristian” as the most “unChristian” of all are those that need to run around and bad-mouth others.
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Zundrah
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Aww, calm down!
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MelanieAnne
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I’m quite calm.
Further, saying “calm down” is a major put-down, it’s condescending and is usually said by the one that is most agitated.
I’m just sick of the ignorant unChristian Catholic bashing. If you can’t handle the blow back, maybe you should consider stopping the attacks.
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Zundrah
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…oh my! I never attacked you! Why do you say this?
I tried to explain to you exactly what I knew DD2007 meant in his post! I never attacked catholicism! I really think that you are in a defensive mode, where you believe that I’m catholic-bashing you? Geez, that’s not the case!
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MelanieAnne
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The worst sort of critic is one that believes they’re not being critical. But you ARE bashing. You’re criticizing Catholics, and yet it is plain that it is just a stereotype that you are spouting, and there’s not a lick of truth in it, it’s just uninformed opinion.…oh my! I never attacked you! Why do you say this?
When you describe Catholics as people who don’t have “spirit” who just pay lip service to prayers and just warm the pews on Sunday, you’re ATTACKING CATHOLICS. If you can’t see that, then I can’t help you, you’re just being obtuse then. The fact that you don’t know any such persons and you’re spouting uninformed opinion just makes it worse.
And stop stalking me around the forum or I’ll report it as harassment.
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Zundrah
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Stalking you? I went on one of your threads, you think I’m stalking?
…My entire family are catholic, Irish catholic, I have 15 aunts and uncles all together; all of which are catholic.
I do know such people, my family.
I shouldn’t have answered for DD2007, I’m sorry if I hurt you. :hug3:
I go to my Roman Catholic Church, I have been going there only for nine weeks now. But I am becoming Catholic and cannot hold down my excitement of being comfirmed in easter!
P.S. You have obviously taken quite alot of abuse from protestants, haven’t you? Let me apologise on their behalf. Christs’ words on the cross; “…forgive them Father, for they know not what they do.”
xxXx zundrah (Jennifer) xXxx
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Reuben_J
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This is very ignorant statement. I know some Protestants are ignorant on many aspects of Catholicism but I seldom get to p(name removed by moderator)oint their specific ignorance but here I caught one who exhibits this phenomenon glaringly. The ignorance here is about your knowledge of the Sacrament of Baptism and Confirmation. Let’s say at the onset it is not some hocus focus ritual and that’s it. Sacrament is an outward sign of an inward grace; I’ve said this so many times in this forum it’s getting quite stale really, but as long as people don’t know what it is, I guess it needs to be mentioned again and again.
There is never a case where a person is baptized blindly or because of peer’s pressure. If you are an adult, you have to undergo RCIA which takes about a year to complete where at the end of the instruction you are to make your mind whether to move on to actually accept Christianity; if you do only then you will be Baptized. This is hardly unconscious and unknowing in the baptism that you will be undergoing. Beside for every RCIA candidate going for Baptism, he will have a sponsor, who will journey with him in his spiritual walk for the rest of his life. So you see his walk as a Christian is hardly alone.
As for infant Baptism, the responsibility to see that the child grow up in knowledge of the faith that it is baptized with is on the parents and the godparent. Catholic parents are entrusted to bring up their children this way. They have the church to see that they will be not in want as to the spiritual needs of this child. Again, it also has the Godparent, who is a parent that looks after it spiritual needs for the rest of its life. Modern day usage of Godparent is very secularized and most probably you thought this is what it entails in Catholicism. Well, hardly.
I cannot imagine any baptized Catholic therefore is NOT a Christian. Baptism, and more so Confirmation, ensures that a person is indeed Christian. How Protestants can make a judgment that a Catholic is not a Christian therefore reflects nicely on your spirituality and your understanding of your respective doctrine and the Bible, which is to say, very unChristian. It’s a pity because of the exulted claim that you all have about having to know Jesus and yet do not think like him.
Whether a person is bad Christian does not make him not a Christian. I thought this is obvious. Jesus would not have it for any less.
God bless you.
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jpaul1953
Guest
I know this one will be hard to believe. I listen to alot of talk radio. I used to listen to a reasonable amount of non-Catholic talk radio. Since Sattelite radio came around I now listen to EWTN mostly and sometimes to the Catholic Channel.
Listening one day to a ‘call-in question and answer’ radio talk show. The subject was solely on ‘Once Save, Always Saved’. Listeners were calling in asking all different questions about what if they did something really bad.
Many called about specific sins like fornication, adultery, homosexuality, stealing, and murder. The host said even though you should never sin, you are still saved through the blood of Christ. Then a few listeners starting asking about whether they would lose their salvation if they switched to a different denomination. The host stated again that you cannot lose your salvation if you prayed the ‘sinner’s prayer and was baptized’. Jesus will not lose any of his sheep.
Then, someone called and asked: “What if I leave my faith to become Catholic.” The host abruptly answered: “You cannot become a Catholic. If you do you will no longer be saved.”
I was so angry I could hardly control myself. I couldn’t call them because I didn’t have the number. Later I found out the program was taped anyway. If I had called them I would have been a terrible representative of the Church so it was better that it was taped. After the show I heard the station note that each show is individual and of its own views. The station doesn’t necessarily agree or disagree with the programs views.
I stayed upset for a long time over this incident. I believe this was partly the reason I became much stronger in my faith as a Catholic. I now need to thank them and a few other denominations who said ugly things about Catholics. This made me read the Bible a lot.
THANK YOU ALLYOU NON-CATHOLICS. I LOVE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH MORE EACH AND EVERY DAY OF MY LIFE,
jpaul1953
Listening one day to a ‘call-in question and answer’ radio talk show. The subject was solely on ‘Once Save, Always Saved’. Listeners were calling in asking all different questions about what if they did something really bad.
Many called about specific sins like fornication, adultery, homosexuality, stealing, and murder. The host said even though you should never sin, you are still saved through the blood of Christ. Then a few listeners starting asking about whether they would lose their salvation if they switched to a different denomination. The host stated again that you cannot lose your salvation if you prayed the ‘sinner’s prayer and was baptized’. Jesus will not lose any of his sheep.
Then, someone called and asked: “What if I leave my faith to become Catholic.” The host abruptly answered: “You cannot become a Catholic. If you do you will no longer be saved.”
I was so angry I could hardly control myself. I couldn’t call them because I didn’t have the number. Later I found out the program was taped anyway. If I had called them I would have been a terrible representative of the Church so it was better that it was taped. After the show I heard the station note that each show is individual and of its own views. The station doesn’t necessarily agree or disagree with the programs views.
I stayed upset for a long time over this incident. I believe this was partly the reason I became much stronger in my faith as a Catholic. I now need to thank them and a few other denominations who said ugly things about Catholics. This made me read the Bible a lot.
THANK YOU ALLYOU NON-CATHOLICS. I LOVE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH MORE EACH AND EVERY DAY OF MY LIFE,
jpaul1953
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fbl9
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As sad as this story is it is just too funny,i mean like so much for once saved always saved …
now what kind of teacher could teach osas yet claim that one can become unsaved?.. not a very truthful one.
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jpaul1953
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*Dear flbl9,As sad as this story is it is just too funny,i mean like so much for once saved always saved …
now what kind of teacher could teach osas yet claim that one can become unsaved?.. not a very truthful one.
I have another story if you don’t mind with regards to how far some non-catholics take ‘Once Saved, Always Saved’ along with ‘If you desire a woman in your mind, you have already committed adultery in your heart’.
A protestant friend of mine states clearly that when Jesus said: “I am the truth, the life, and the way. No one gets to the Father except through me”, Jesus meant it just like it reads, if you don’t know Jesus while on earth regardless if it’s not your fault, you’re going straight to hell. Pope John Paul II taught this message through quite a different light. Please read Romans 2 at the end about the ‘Interior Law’. It sheds a beautiful light on this.
BUT, this is not the story. The story is that he believes everyone who doesn’t believe the way his preacher teaches this concept is ‘TOAST’, to say the least.
Well, he has been unfaithful to his wife probably a couple of thousand times by his own account. His wife, to the best of his knowledge, has never been unfaithful. He said to me in conversation that his wife had been more unfaithful in their marriage than he had ever been. She has had dreams, thoughts, and desires far more times than he has been unfaithful physically (obvoiusly forgetting his own thoughts and desires which leads him to his unfaithfulness).
Taking Jesus literally versus in a literal sense, this friend of mine continued saying that his wife was more unfaithful than him based on ’ her hearfelt desires’ as Jesus said and he’ll stand by his claim.
I said to him: “You are terribly offbase with Jesus’ meaning here. And I will explain. The next time you are going to be unfaithful to your wife physically and your wife is unfaithful to you emotionally, switch places. You only think about it and let her go out and perform the deed. The morning after, you tell me who commited adultery you, thinking about it, or her, doing the act. I believe you will agree with me that you got the short end of the stick this one time.” He immediately said: " I don’t want to talk about this any more. I’m getting mad."
That’s a trip. Don’t you think?
During our conversation, I mentioned to him that many times people feel like killing someone, but it never goes further than that. It stays a thought. It’s wrong, but it’s a thought that never transpired. If the person goes ahead and commits the murder. Tell me. Which is worse, the thought or the action? Needless to say he was unhappy about my analogy.
The Church teaches us to take the Bible in a literal sense so we can try to understand what was meant when it was said, being that languages evolve over time just like every thing else. That’s why so many non-Catholics think we’re non-Christian since they take the Bible literally, not understanding what was meant when it was originally said. Quite a different take isn’t it.
Take care and may God bless you.
jpaul1953*
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traillius
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Go ahead ye who consider me not christian because I am Catholic. " Blessed are ye when wicked tongues mock you on account of me." Being mocked and lied about because I am in the Church Christ founded only brings me closer to Jesus. So thank you, your persecution because I am “unsaved” only strengthens my salvation.
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RNRobert
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The attacks on the Church by non-Catholic Christians reminds me of a quote by Bishop Fulton Sheen:
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