Which religion?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Peter_J
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Pope Benedict’s lifting of Williamson’s excommunication was a major blunder in my opinion and a mistake. Williamson is a loose cannon, a holocaust-denier, an a hardcore anti-Ameircan conspiracy theorist who spreads absrudities about how Bush and Cheney went in cahoots with the CIA to blow up the Trade Center towers. The man denounces the Vatican all the time and has little respect for the papacy at all. He is a paranoid nutjob. I wish the excommunication had stuck and the pope had kept this anti-semite out of the Catholic faith period. He’s a disgrace and an embarrassment. He’s a Catholic version of the Episcopalian timebomb maniac bishop Spong…🤷
 
As a catholic, I attended a chapel that was annually visited by Bishop Williamson after I left my diocesan parish. In my opinion the two groups held very similar faiths but the doctrine and worship at each was palpably different. There is as much similarity and difference between a diocesan parish and a traditionalist chapel as there is between a catholic and episcopal parish. I think it is reasonable to conclude they are different religions in the sense that they are different expressions of Christianity.
If it is true that the SSPX and Catholicism are different expressions of Christianity, then the SSPX are in the same boat as the Protestant communities of faith. They have separated themselves from the Church in protest against what they perceive as false practices within the Church. Is it your contention that the SSPX are Protestants?
 
If it is true that the SSPX and Catholicism are different expressions of Christianity, then the SSPX are in the same boat as the Protestant communities of faith. They have separated themselves from the Church in protest against what they perceive as false practices within the Church. Is it your contention that the SSPX are Protestants?
I realize this post wasn’t directed to me, but I would like to comment that your question doesn’t really make any sense. To be a Protestant, one must believe what Protestants believe. Simply separating oneself from the Catholic Church doesn’t imply becoming a Protestant, any more than separating oneself from Protestantism implies becoming a Catholic.
 
MercyMia,

After our earlier conversation about Sungenis, i.e.
The link you provided is a pretty dubious page run by Robert Sungenis - who is not representative of the Catholic Church. He is actually quite anti-semetic and has been publicly criticized by other reputable Catholic apologists.
I admit I don’t know a lot about Robert Sungenis, but EWTN presumably puts some stock in him – they did give him his own show, after all.

BTW, would you say that the opening paragraph (which I’ll quote below) is from Sungenis? That’s how I read it, but it isn’t completely clear.
… I spent a little time looking at his catholicintl website. I was struck first of all that he is not just a Traditional Catholic, but what I would consider a hard-core Traditional Catholic. It seems a little surprizing (to me anyways) that EWTN gave him a TV show. :hmmm:

I also found an article there about EWTN (it’s a review of Christopher A. Ferrara’s “EWTN: A Network Gone Wrong”). I haven’t read the whole thing, but I found this section particularly interesting:

**Contrasting Policies: Greg Popcak and Fr. Groeschel **
Although Ferrara himself admits that “EWTN still retains certain elements of
good Catholic programming” (p. 8), it is his position that the good programs are engulfed
by a prevalent set of bad programs that have virtually changed the face of EWTN.
Interestingly enough, we know that EWTN is listening to Mr. Ferrara, at least partially.
For example, immediately after Ferrara’s book was published, it could not be
coincidental that EWTN eliminated the program hosted by Greg Popcak: Marriage: For
Better, Forever . I had written an article about Popcak (pronounced: Popchak) a few years
ago, outlining his outlandish statements on sex and his dubious theological views, and
forwarded the information to Ferrara as he was writing his book. Popcak advocates such
things as God having “the cosmological orgasm we call the ‘Big Bang’ through which the
entire universe was created” (p. 201); that sexual relations are a prayer (p. 179); that sex
is a preparation for the beatific vision (p. 181); that boys should chart their mother’s and
sister’s fertility cycle in order to learn how to use NFP; and many other such off-the-wall
ideas, including chapter titles to his books such as “Holy Sex, Batman!” and “Der
Intimacy is Good, Jah?” EWTN had enough sense to admit that Popcak had crossed the
line once it was pointed out to them. But if Mother Angelica were still at the helm, and
Popcak were given her scrutiny before airing, his program would never have seen the
light of day.
But at the present time, determining who “crosses-the-line” is a somewhat
arbitrary exercise in EWTN’s assessment of its television personalities. While a man like
Greg Popcak is expendable without much backlash, EWTN would not be so quick to
judge a figure as prominent as Fr. Benedict Groeschel. Terminating the program Sunday
Night Live with Fr. Groeschel would send shockwaves throughout the world, but the
truth is, Groeschel has uttered some of the more outlandish theological miscues ever
uttered on Catholic television, and all without one word of criticism from the EWTN
staff. Popcak’s antics appear like boyish pranks compared to some of Fr. Groeschel’s
puzzling statements.
Ferrara makes quite a case against Groeschel. In one instance Ferrara points out
that when Groeschel was posed with a question on a call-in program of how we are to
understand Jesus’ statement in John 6:53: “ if you do not eat of the Son of Man and drink
his blood you have no life in you,” the ecumenically-predisposed Groeschel answered by
saying that the verse has a defect in the original Greek and should read: “ If you eat my
flesh…you will have life within you.” In his attempt to accommodate non-Catholics who
don’t believe in the Eucharist, Groeschel implicitly denied that the Greek of the New
Testament was inspired by the Holy Spirit, as well as denying our traditional sacramental
theology. Indeed, as Ferrara points out, Groeschel retorted “indeed you don’t” in answer
to a question by the caller of whether the sacraments were necessary for salvation (p. 87).
Groeschel opted to turn Jesus’ words into a mere “call” rather than a command, and a call
that one could take or leave at his own discretion.
As for the Greek that Groeschel cited, Catholic dogma maintains that, even if
Jesus spoke in Hebrew or Aramaic (which is not proven), the Greek of the New
Testament is a divinely inspired and totally accurate rendering of his words. In fact, we
have no other words to consult. As such, Groeschel’s treatment of John 6:53 is erroneous,
since the Greek literally says, “If you do not eat of the flesh…you have no life in you.”
The phrase “if…not” is from the Greek “ean mee,” which literally means “if not,” not
“if.” Unbeknownst to anyone at EWTN, Groeschel simply eliminated the word “not”
from the Bible and created his own ecumenical theology of the Eucharist. In
ecclesiastical terms, Groeschel’s error is much more serious than Popcak’s, for it hits
right at the heart of salvation theology. My guess is that no one on EWTN’s staff even
had an inkling to question Fr. Groeschel’s answer, much less scrutinize it for possible
heresy. It would have been much better if Groeschel had simply said, in certain instances
of invincible ignorance the sacrament of the Eucharist is not required for salvation, which
would have at least been a starting point for discussion. But to impugn the inspiration of
the Holy Spirit and twist the words of Scripture in order to give non-Catholics carte-
blanche relief of having to submit to Jesus’ command is simply beyond the pale. It also
shows the lengths that modern thinking will go in order to lessen the authority of tradition
and accommodate the clamor for the acceptance of all religions. There are many other
such instances Ferrara points out that demonstrate Fr. Groeschel’s penchant to reinterpret
Catholic doctrine in light of his own personal understanding of theology, but we do not
have room to cover them in this essay.

I don’t think we know for certain that “EWTN is listening to Mr. Ferrara, at least partially”, but it is a very interesting possibility.

P.S. I admit I haven’t read Sungenis’ writing concerning Judaism.
 
If it is true that the SSPX and Catholicism are different expressions of Christianity, then the SSPX are in the same boat as the Protestant communities of faith. They have separated themselves from the Church in protest against what they perceive as false practices within the Church. Is it your contention that the SSPX are Protestants?
No, that is an absurd assertion. The SSPX categorically rejects all the the doctrine and practice of the Reformers. The main stream catholic church has adopted many of the ideas and practices of protestantism.

It is the classic dilemna of catholic identity. What makes a roman catholic a roman catholic? Bishop Williamson doesn’t believe or worship in a manner that is divergent from Roman Catholics of 100 years ago. The RCC changed and left the traditionalists behind. To mainstream roman catholics, catholics identity is watered down to only one quality: obedience to the Pope. If the mass, the holy of holies in catholicism, that was celebrated for over 1500 years can be outlawed, what couldn’t be thrown out of the sanctuary next? Rosary, perhaps?

Since I have left the Roman catholic church and have joined a church that I believe is closer to the truth, I have no pony in this race. But I think that anybody who is fair must conclude that traditionalists roman catholics are maintaing the worship and doctrine that Roman Catholicism prayed and taught for at least the past 900 years before Vatican II. Vatican II changed the RCC (for the better in my opinion). Williamson and the SSPX represent the last hold outs of what Roman Catholicism used to be.
 
MercyMia,

After our earlier conversation about Sungenis, i.e.

… I spent a little time looking at his catholicintl website. I was struck first of all that he is not just a Traditional Catholic, but what I would consider a hard-core Traditional Catholic. It seems a little surprizing (to me anyways) that EWTN gave him a TV show. :hmmm:

I also found an article there about EWTN (it’s a review of Christopher A. Ferrara’s “EWTN: A Network Gone Wrong”). I haven’t read the whole thing, but I found this section particularly interesting:

.
Sungenis had a show on EWTN a long time ago. He became disillusioned with the JPII papacy because of it’s its ecumenical practices. He rubbed elbows with traditionalists but couldn’t accept the positions of traditionalists concerning VII. It was reading Sungenis’ site and Tan books that began my path towards traditional catholicism. After that, Venarri’s Catholic Family News and Mott’s Remnant Newspaper informed me of the extreme changes of faith and worship to the RCC only a few decades ago.

I was a pretty hard-headed lock step roman catholic. Would have never left the RCC because of the arguments of “fallible” protestant apologists. I had the unchanging rock of Peter. But Roman Catholic traditionalists opened my eyes as to how the papacy changes the faith and practices of the RCC. Not so firm a foundation after all.

Reading traditionalist venues can be a little scary for RCs. They spend a lot of energy arguing against protestants. They are caught off guard when it is suggested that the main stream church is very protestant as well. What is scarier still is that they are right. So they retreat from traditionalists in a knee jerk reaction and assert that the most important quality of catholic identity is obedience to the pope even to the point of replacing the mass that has been in use in the west for over 1900 years for an updated one with protestant influences. Would the saints and doctors of the RCC see it that way? You decide.
 
It is the classic dilemna of catholic identity. What makes a roman catholic a roman catholic? Bishop Williamson doesn’t believe or worship in a manner that is divergent from Roman Catholics of 100 years ago.
I’m not sure I would agree with that … Catholics of 100 years ago were a lot more ultra-montane than Williamson is.
 
I’m not sure I would agree with that … Catholics of 100 years ago were a lot more ultra-montane than Williamson is.
Possibly. I do know that Pius X would feel a lot more at home at Econe than in the Vatican. He would be absolutely horrified to see altar girls, communion in the hand, vernacular mass, Eucharistic prayer 2-4, and ecumenical prayer services.
 
But in the end this idea that Catholicism isn’t following the pope but rather following what things looked like 100 years ago, inaccurate? I’m not a fan of altar girls or communion in the hand or some of this koombaya-sounding mumbo jumbo at Mass. I miss incense and wouldn’t mind some Latin and a return to more traditional ritual. But essentially that’s not my call. While I wouldn’t call SSPXers “protestants” I sure don’t deem them truly Catholic either. They claim to respect Benedict XVI as their pope and yet they don’t have to follow the pope? HUH? SSPX figures that the pope is infallible until he says something they don’t agree with then it’s splitsville until he comes back to their line of thinking. And yet he’s still their pope? Focusing too much on the incense, the communion in the hand, which way a priest is facing, what language the Mass is in, this has nothing to do with the deposit of faith and the fundamentals of what it means to truly be Catholic. The truth of the Catechism that we read and profess is Catholic, period. And ecumenism is not some horrible apocalypse either. I loved the fact that John Paul II reached out to non-Catholics. It was his papacy that inspired me to come back to the Church after a long absence as an Anglican. Part of what I loved was not only his life-long living testimony to what it means to be a Christian, but I could see God working through this man reaching out to the rest of the world in love. The man did a world of good for Catholicism IMO. Catholicism will not grow and flourish and change lives just by following some SSPX recomendations about how the Mass should roll, it is vibrant evangelism, ardent devotion, a born-again heart, a new commitment to Christ and the Gospel message, and a determination to fight moral relativism (especially abortion and the culture of death) that will help Catholicism to change the world.
 
Possibly. I do know that Pius X would feel a lot more at home at Econe than in the Vatican. He would be absolutely horrified to see altar girls, communion in the hand, vernacular mass, Eucharistic prayer 2-4, and ecumenical prayer services.
But I wonder if he’d become a schismatic over it and encourage disloyalty to the Holy See and splinter groups? Reform from within and with a new conversion of the heart as well as a desire to preach the Good News as Catholics means more than if it’s a chick or a dude carrying the Cross down the aisle for me. And quite frankly, why is it evil or taboo or so negative that a girl be an altar girl? I’ve always preferred altar boys because, well, that’s just how I saw it take place when I was growing up. But what is actually objectionable to it? They’re not clergy? Female clergy is objectionable because it goes against the sacerdotal role and nature of the in persona christi charism of the priesthood itself. But what does it matter if a girl holds a Bible or prayer book for a priest? How is it sinful for a girl to light some candles or ring a bell during Mass? I think sometimes we dwell on these incidental chicken-feed “concerns” instead of real reform. What is the essential evil about altar girls? Just because we’re not used to something from our upbringing doesn’t necessarily make it diabolical. When it goes against the Gospels or the Church or violates the deposit of faith, then we need to worry. I personally hate communion in the hand because I view it as being a bit lacking in piety and it makes it easier for these jerks to steal the Host and do blasphemous things like try to sell it on Ebay or defile it, but essentially it’s not an evil act to take communion in the hand. These things aren’t worth rupturing the unity of Christ’s Church over?
 
But in the end this idea that Catholicism isn’t following the pope but rather following what things looked like 100 years ago, inaccurate? I’m not a fan of altar girls or communion in the hand or some of this koombaya-sounding mumbo jumbo at Mass. I miss incense and wouldn’t mind some Latin and a return to more traditional ritual. But essentially that’s not my call. While I wouldn’t call SSPXers “protestants” I sure don’t deem them truly Catholic either. They claim to respect Benedict XVI as their pope and yet they don’t have to follow the pope? HUH? SSPX figures that the pope is infallible until he says something they don’t agree with then it’s splitsville until he comes back to their line of thinking. And yet he’s still their pope? Focusing too much on the incense, the communion in the hand, which way a priest is facing, what language the Mass is in, this has nothing to do with the deposit of faith and the fundamentals of what it means to truly be Catholic. .
You kind of just made my point. To be truly catholic to you means following the pope even if he decides to radically change the religion in ways that were anathema to his predecessors. If the pope outlawed the mass that you and countless generations of catholics before you experienced God at the most intimate level, do you think your dispostion would be “oh well, that’s not my call”? Christianity has got to be more sacred and sentimental than obedience to an Italian prelate.

When I converted to catholicism, I thought I was joining the church that had always held to the teachings of Jesus that didn’t change with the times. I couldn’t have been more wrong. The faith and worship of the RCC certainly does change. There is no doubt that the pre-concillar Popes would have condemned the post-concilar Popes as modernist heretics. The traditionalists opened my eyes to that reality. Ultimately, I decided that Christianity had to be more than obedience to a Roman bishop. Once you take that step, you’ve got one foot out of the door of the RCC.
 
But I wonder if he’d become a schismatic over it and encourage disloyalty to the Holy See and splinter groups?
He probably would have never dreamed his sucessors would allow that kind of thing to happen. The point is that both him and Pius XI condemned many of the ideas implemented after VII.
Reform from within and with a new conversion of the heart as well as a desire to preach the Good News as Catholics means more than if it’s a chick or a dude carrying the Cross down the aisle for me.
Well, Pius X certainly wouldn’t have seen it that way. He would probably say that by condoning the radical changes to the liturgy that you have become complicent in the destruction of the “Good News”.
And quite frankly, why is it evil or taboo or so negative that a girl be an altar girl? I’ve always preferred altar boys because, well, that’s just how I saw it take place when I was growing up. But what is actually objectionable to it? They’re not clergy? Female clergy is objectionable because it goes against the sacerdotal role and nature of the in persona christi charism of the priesthood itself. But what does it matter if a girl holds a Bible or prayer book for a priest? How is it sinful for a girl to light some candles or ring a bell during Mass? I think sometimes we dwell on these incidental chicken-feed “concerns” instead of real reform. What is the essential evil about altar girls? Just because we’re not used to something from our upbringing doesn’t necessarily make it diabolical. When it goes against the Gospels or the Church or violates the deposit of faith, then we need to worry. I personally hate communion in the hand because I view it as being a bit lacking in piety and it makes it easier for these jerks to steal the Host and do blasphemous things like try to sell it on Ebay or defile it, but essentially it’s not an evil act to take communion in the hand. These things aren’t worth rupturing the unity of Christ’s Church over?
You’re asking the wrong guy. No doubt that Pius X would be disgusted at my parish as well. But he probably would not care that much because I’m a hell bound Anglican heretic in his eyes anyway. To see these things happening at a catholic parish would shock him.

But these things were a big deal to him and the popes after him. All of the changes in the liturgy were adopted from protestant heresy. Therefore, the new mass is heresy mixed with catholicism in the trad view. The pure catholic worship is to be found in the mass that catholics used for at least 1500 years. Not to mention the doctrinal and canonical changes that have happened.

It can be truly said that that Pope would probably view you much the same way as you view episcopalians.
 
You kind of just made my point. To be truly catholic to you means following the pope even if he decides to radically change the religion in ways that were anathema to his predecessors. If the pope outlawed the mass that you and countless generations of catholics before you experienced God at the most intimate level, do you think your dispostion would be “oh well, that’s not my call”? Christianity has got to be more sacred and sentimental than obedience to an Italian prelate.

When I converted to catholicism, I thought I was joining the church that had always held to the teachings of Jesus that didn’t change with the times. I couldn’t have been more wrong. The faith and worship of the RCC certainly does change. There is no doubt that the pre-concillar Popes would have condemned the post-concilar Popes as modernist heretics. The traditionalists opened my eyes to that reality. Ultimately, I decided that Christianity had to be more than obedience to a Roman bishop. Once you take that step, you’ve got one foot out of the door of the RCC.
I did not make your point for you, VARC. The reverse is true. The pope did not “radically change” the religion. He changed some disciplines and liturgical processes, the language of the Mass, etc. You give this outlandish example, “what fi the pope outlawed the Mass? Would you follow him?” What kind of scenario is that?" You might as well say, “what if the Pope declared Jesus wasn’t the son of God!?” It’s not going to happen and hasn’t happened? So what’s the point? You confuse religion with procedure. Catholicism hasn’t changed its stance on the priesthood, the Eucharist, the sacramental system, the salvific work of Christ, the theology of the body or theology of the communion of saints, the role of Mary, the truth of the Gospels, teachings on sanctification or homosexuality of abortion or the culture of death or…anything really. It became more ecumenical and more accessible to the lay people. How is that a complete change of “religion?” It’s a change of procedure and ritual applications but not religion? Christianity is not just obedience to the Roman Bishop but to the deposit of faith that the pope defends and preserves. He is its guardian and interpreter safeguarding the deposit.

Speculating on what former popes would’ve done to current popes is a waste of time and pure anachronism. I don’t really care what former deceased popes would say about Benedict XVI. The Good Lord took those popes back to heaven and they’re with Christ now. This pope is our living rock. God guides him and protects him. The opinions of the deceased are moot.

And I say this as a person who doesn’t really care much for many things that resulted from Vatican II. I think Vatican II in many ways is a bummer. But I respect the Church’s teachings and must follow the changes. It’s not for me to decide. And you’re correct about having one foot out of the RCC. When that foot steps out, it’s funny how we become our own popes. Trust me, I’ve been there and done that a lot. One way or another, you’ll be your own pope or substitute someone in his place because somewhere there must be objective truth.
 
I did not make your point for you, VARC. The reverse is true. The pope did not “radically change” the religion. He changed some disciplines and liturgical processes, the language of the Mass, etc. You give this outlandish example, “what fi the pope outlawed the Mass? Would you follow him?” What kind of scenario is that?"
That is exactly what he did. He made it illegal for preists to say the traditional form of the mass. He ordered that they must use the new protestantized mass.
You confuse religion with procedure. Catholicism hasn’t changed its stance on the priesthood, the Eucharist, the sacramental system, the salvific work of Christ, the theology of the body or theology of the communion of saints, the role of Mary, the truth of the Gospels, teachings on sanctification or homosexuality of abortion or the culture of death or…anything really.
But it has changed its stand on ecumenism and religious liberty. Both were condemned as errors by previous Popes.
It became more ecumenical and more accessible to the lay people. How is that a complete change of “religion?” It’s a change of procedure and ritual applications but not religion?
That’s your perspective but the pre-conciliar popes taught that ecumenism as it is understood today, was sinful.
Christianity is not just obedience to the Roman Bishop but to the deposit of faith that the pope defends and preserves. He is its guardian and interpreter safeguarding the deposit.
Yeah but the deposit of faith is defined Pope. Pope teach different things at differnet times. John XXII specifically condemned the idea of papal infallibility. Pius IX promulgated it. Who’s to say which one was right or wrong?
Speculating on what former popes would’ve done to current popes is a waste of time and pure anachronism. I don’t really care what former deceased popes would say about Benedict XVI. The Good Lord took those popes back to heaven and they’re with Christ now. This pope is our living rock. God guides him and protects him. The opinions of the deceased are moot.
Yes but it begs the question about when a pope is right or wrong. Pius IX specifically condemned religious liberty, ecumenism, and even public schools as wrong. If he wasn’t right then, who to say the current pope is right about "the role of Mary, the truth of the Gospels, teachings on sanctification or homosexuality of abortion or the culture of death ".
And I say this as a person who doesn’t really care much for many things that resulted from Vatican II. I think Vatican II in many ways is a bummer. But I respect the Church’s teachings and must follow the changes. It’s not for me to decide. And you’re correct about having one foot out of the RCC. When that foot steps out, it’s funny how we become our own popes. Trust me, I’ve been there and done that a lot. One way or another, you’ll be your own pope or substitute someone in his place because somewhere there must be objective truth.
I am quite content with pondering things with my own limited reason and discerning what I believe to be the truth. I don’t think that disposition makes one his own pope. Roman catholics do the same exact thing but arrive at a different conclusion. You have used your God given reason and the resources available to you and arrived at the conlusion that the Pope is infallible and that you must submit to him in all things religious. If using one’s reason to discern truth makes one his own pope then truly we are all are own popes.

And you need not feel that you “must” accept anything from the Vatican against your better judgement. Nobody’s got a gun to your head. The truth is that you choose to do so. I’m sure you have your reasons.
 
But in the end this idea that Catholicism isn’t following the pope but rather following what things looked like 100 years ago, inaccurate? I’m not a fan of altar girls or communion in the hand or some of this koombaya-sounding mumbo jumbo at Mass. I miss incense and wouldn’t mind some Latin and a return to more traditional ritual. But essentially that’s not my call. While I wouldn’t call SSPXers “protestants” I sure don’t deem them truly Catholic either. They claim to respect Benedict XVI as their pope and yet they don’t have to follow the pope? HUH?
I think that – generally speaking – “Traditionalist Catholic” and “ultra-montane” tend to go hand-in-hand. But of course they’re not interchangeable terms. Indeed, it would be very difficult for anyone to be both a hard-core “Traditionalist Catholic” and also a hard-core ultra-montane.
 
Cartoon
There is no doubt that the pre-concillar Popes would have condemned the post-concilar Popes as modernist heretics.
Well then call me a “Doubting Thomas”. 😉
Pius IX specifically condemned religious liberty, ecumenism, and even public schools as wrong.
I’m not so sure that’s correct. Just because a Pope says " ________ is incorrect", that doesn’t necessarily count as a condemnation.
 
One only needs visit the official website to conclude whether SSPX is the same “religion” as catholicism and whether they consider themselves under the authority of the Holy Father.

It’s pretty clear.
 
I’m not so sure that’s correct. Just because a Pope says " ________ is incorrect", that doesn’t necessarily count as a condemnation.
papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9syll.htm

You be the judge. It strains the limits of credulity that Pius IX wasn’t condemning aspects of VII 100 years before hand.

Among the errors condemned are:
  1. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true
  2. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation.
  3. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ
These “errors” are exactly what the RCC teaches today

“The council further declares that the right to religious freedom has its foundation in the very dignity of the human person as this dignity is known through the revealed word of God and by reason itself.(2) This right of the human person to religious freedom is to be recognized in the constitutional law whereby society is governed and thus it is to become a civil right.” DIGNITATIS HUMANAE

I could go on but I just remembered that I received a suspension and 10 “infraction points” for “agenda driven posting” a year ago for opining on this subject. CAF feels the need to censor the subject matter concerning the disparities of the pre and post conciliar popes.
 
gurneyhalleck1;:
quite frankly, why is it evil or taboo or so negative that a girl be an altar girl?
It is implicitly prohibited in the Torah.
But what is actually objectionable to it?
Going by the Torah, sexual attraction.

jonathon
 
papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9syll.htm

You be the judge. It strains the limits of credulity that Pius IX wasn’t condemning aspects of VII 100 years before hand.

Among the errors condemned are:
  1. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true
  2. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation.
  3. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ
These “errors” are exactly what the RCC teaches today

“The council further declares that the right to religious freedom has its foundation in the very dignity of the human person as this dignity is known through the revealed word of God and by reason itself.(2) This right of the human person to religious freedom is to be recognized in the constitutional law whereby society is governed and thus it is to become a civil right.” DIGNITATIS HUMANAE

I could go on but I just remembered that I received a suspension and 10 “infraction points” for “agenda driven posting” a year ago for opining on this subject. CAF feels the need to censor the subject matter concerning the disparities of the pre and post conciliar popes.
Without getting into the question (which has already had quite a few thread devoted to it) of why you’re here if you disagree with CAF’s agenda, let me just say that I’m pretty sure that you are permitted to quote Pius IX, and let the quotes speak for themselves.

Concerning those three condemnations, for the moment let me address #17,
  1. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ
This sounds very harsh and un-ecumenical (and even harsher toward non-Christians), but it’s not really problematic because he doesn’t say “all the unbaptized are not at all in the true Church of Christ” (bear in mind the possibility of “baptism of desire”) much less that all non-Catholic Christians are not at all in the true Church of Christ.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top