Which should I obey: the Bible or the Catholic Church

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The Bible is God’s holy Word, but the Catholic Church seems to disagree with it on certain points. Which should I follow and obey? For example, the Catholic Church says we must do good works to gain favor with God. But the Bible says in Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works], so no one may boast." To truely be saved then, is to “confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead…” (Romans 10:9) The Bible states that good works are not a part of our salvation.

In James 2:26, the Bible states, “*For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.” * Here James is writing to either the Jews or the churches throughout the land. Whichever it is, he is talking to people who already know God and have faith in Him that He has saved them from eternal death. So this passage doesn’t refer to salvation since James is talking to believers about their personal life IN Christ.

Also, I have never heard the Catholic Church says if it is possible to know you are saved or not. I have even heard Catholics on the street when questioned say they HOPE that they are going to Heaven, but they aren’t sure. The Bible, though, says we can be sure. In 1 John 5:13, it says, “I write these things to you so that you may know that you have eternal life, you who believe in the name of the Son of God.” Yet Catholics around the world are insecure about life after death.

So, who should I believe? God’s holy Word, *“inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work.” * (2 Timothy 3:16-17), or should I believe the Catholic Church?
 
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mich7891:
The Bible is God’s holy Word, but the Catholic Church seems to disagree with it on certain points. Which should I follow and obey? For example, the Catholic Church says we must do good works to gain favor with God. But the Bible says in Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works], so no one may boast." To truely be saved then, is to “confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead…” (Romans 10:9) The Bible states that good works are not a part of our salvation.

In James 2:26, the Bible states, “*For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.” * Here James is writing to either the Jews or the churches throughout the land. Whichever it is, he is talking to people who already know God and have faith in Him that He has saved them from eternal death. So this passage doesn’t refer to salvation since James is talking to believers about their personal life IN Christ.

Also, I have never heard the Catholic Church says if it is possible to know you are saved or not. I have even heard Catholics on the street when questioned say they HOPE that they are going to Heaven, but they aren’t sure. The Bible, though, says we can be sure. In 1 John 5:13, it says, “I write these things to you so that you may know that you have eternal life, you who believe in the name of the Son of God.” Yet Catholics around the world are insecure about life after death.

So, who should I believe? God’s holy Word, *“inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work.” * (2 Timothy 3:16-17), or should I believe the Catholic Church?
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Let your reason and moral conscience be the ultimate authority in your life.
 
To give a short answer to the question posed in the thread title, if you obey the Catholic Church you will be obeying the Bible. The rest of your arguments are based on either a false understanding of what Catholics believe, your erroneous interpretation of the Bible, or some combination of the two. Good luck on your trolling. I hope you catch something.
 
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geezerbob:
To give a short answer to the question posed in the thread title, if you obey the Catholic Church you will be obeying the Bible. The rest of your arguments are based on either a false understanding of what Catholics believe, your erroneous interpretation of the Bible, or some combination of the two. Good luck on your trolling. I hope you catch something.
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Can you then please tell me what the above mentioned passages are talking about? I used a Catholic Bible for those references, and unless you think God talks in circles, please give me a reasonable reply.
 
It is so easy to pick out a verse here & there & use it out of context to support some distorted view of God. Jehovah’s Witnesses do this all the time - as did David Koresh who led that church in Waco where all those people perished in the fire. Same Bible - same verses - taken out of context. Even the devil was able to quote scripture.

I love the Catholic Church because we read & consider a much larger portion of the Bible at every mass - and then the Priest explains the gospel reading. It’s never a random verse pulled out of nowhere…

Also, Catholic Priests study Greek & Hebrew - they study early Church History - our Priest studied in Rome for years & years before he came to our parish. Where did you recieve YOUR theological training, friend?
 
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askeptic:
Let your reason and moral conscience be the ultimate authority in your life.
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If I let my HUMAN(sinful) reason and HUMAN(sinful) moral conscience be the ULTIMATE authority in my life, why should I believe the Catholic Church is right? Or the Bible for that matter. HUMAN(sinful) reason points towards NO GOD. We can’t see Him, so why should we serve Him? Especially if HE is NOT the ultimate authority? Can you please help me here?
 
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mich7891:
If I let my HUMAN(sinful) reason and HUMAN(sinful) moral conscience be the ULTIMATE authority in my life, why should I believe the Catholic Church is right? Or the Bible for that matter. HUMAN(sinful) reason points towards NO GOD. We can’t see Him, so why should we serve Him? Especially if HE is NOT the ultimate authority? Can you please help me here?
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The person who reccomened this is an agnostic. It is his/her opinion, and not the opinion of Catholics. (hence the name “a skeptic” )
 
carol marie:
It is so easy to pick out a verse here & there & use it out of context to support some distorted view of God. Jehovah’s Witnesses do this all the time - as did David Koresh who led that church in Waco where all those people perished in the fire. Same Bible - same verses - taken out of context. Even the devil was able to quote scripture.

I love the Catholic Church because we read & consider a much larger portion of the Bible at every mass - and then the Priest explains the gospel reading. It’s never a random verse pulled out of nowhere…

Also, Catholic Priests study Greek & Hebrew - they study early Church History - our Priest studied in Rome for years & years before he came to our parish. Where did you recieve YOUR theological training, friend?
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From the authority of the Bible. Do you not believe this verse: "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, *so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work. * " And by the way, you can look at the surrounding texts. It all says the same.

Also, my dad studied old Greek and old Hebrew in college in a Bible course. He can read the Bible in it’s original languages, and yet he agrees with what I am saying.
 
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mich7891:
From the authority of the Bible. Do you not believe this verse: “All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, *so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work. *” And by the way, you can look at the surrounding texts. It all says the same.
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But Saint Paul was talking about what scripture when he wrote that? The canon of the New Testament hadn’t been formalized at all at the time he wrote that. He was talking about the OT, the canon of which also had not finally been caonized at that time. So which scripture? Who decided that this was “Bible” and this wasn’t “Bible?” The Catholic Church in council set the canon for the Bible. She seemed to think that she should include Saint Paul and Saint James (who said that faith without works is dead, ie, unable to save). The Bible means what the Church says It means.
 
Perhaps you could explain these verses to me?

“He that endures to the end will be saved.” Mat. 24:13 (endurance requires something on our part?)

or how about when the Apostle Paul said: “I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified” (1 Cor. 9:27).

He was concerned that he could lose his salvation… something you apparently aren’t concerned with… are you more spiritual than than Paul?

Philippians 2:12 says, “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, ***work out your own salvation *with fear and trembling.” ** So much for just having faith, eh?

And regarding “only having faith” - the demons believed in Jesus… but you don’t believe they are saved, do you? So obviously, saving faith is more than just believing in Jesus… maybe it require obedience as well… which reminds me of this verse:

“For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3).

Yikes… sounds like there’s some work needed on our part?
 
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mich7891:
Re: Which should I obey: the Bible or the Catholic Church
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The Church of course. By this I mean not to disobey the Bible but simply if your interpretation of the bible contradicts what the Church teaches that means that your interpretation of the Bible is incorrect.
 
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JKirkLVNV:
The Bible means what the Church says It means.
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And how do I know the Catholic church is right? The Church is formed of MEN, who have sinned too. They themselves are guilty of breaking tthe Ten Commandments. If God hasn’t preserved His Word and let’s HUMANS decide what it means, how in the world did most of the apostles understand what Jesus was saying? If Jesus spoke in circles and high above their level (they were only fishermen), did each one individually interpret Jesus’ words to his own understanding? The church didn’t exist back then, so it couldn’t interpret Jesus’ words for them.
 
carol marie:
Perhaps you could explain these verses to me?

“He that endures to the end will be saved.” Mat. 24:13 (endurance requires something on our part?)

or how about when the Apostle Paul said: “I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified” (1 Cor. 9:27).

He was concerned that he could lose his salvation… something you apparently aren’t concerned with… are you more spiritual than than Paul?

Philippians 2:12 says, “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, ***work out your own salvation ***with fear and trembling.” So much for just having faith, eh?
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Looks like you are take verses out of context now. Mathew 24:13 is talking about the end of times. It says so throughout the verses before the one you mentioned. 1 Corinthians 9:27 is talking about the preaching to others and then sinning yourself. If one can lose his salvation, what good is Jesus’ temporary and only good works salvation? Philippians 2:12 is talking about their faith bring ing forth fruit and showing that they are indeed saved by Christ.
GOD’S WORD CANNOT CONTRADICT ITSELF. IF IT DOES IN ONLY ONE SPOT, HOW CAN WE KOW WHAT IS TRUE AND WHAT ISN’T? CAN THE CHURCH KNOW GOD’S ORIGINAL PLAN FOR HIS WORD?

I have a sincere question: This webstie states “so the kind of salvation Paul is discussing in Ephesians 2:8–9 is initial salvation. It is the kind which we received when we first came to God and were justified, not the kind of salvation we are now receiving (1 Pet. 1:8–9, Phil. 2:12) or the kind we one day will receive (Rom. 13:11, 1 Cor. 3:15, 5:5).”
How many times must you need to be saved? A first salvation, the one we are now receiving, and the one we will receive. How many hells and eternal deaths are there?
 
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mich7891:
If I let my HUMAN(sinful) reason and HUMAN(sinful) moral conscience be the ULTIMATE authority in my life, why should I believe the Catholic Church is right? Or the Bible for that matter. HUMAN(sinful) reason points towards NO GOD. We can’t see Him, so why should we serve Him? Especially if HE is NOT the ultimate authority? Can you please help me here?
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I wouldn’t undercut human reason. Human reason has given us the immensely powerful technology we all use, the medicine which cures so many diseases, human reason and creativity has given us unprecendented understanding of our origins and of the universe.

Jesus said that prayer can move mountains, but I have never seen a mountain moved by prayer. On the other hand, human technology and effort could achieve this feat.

I don’t think that coming up with Catholicism is above human ability. We have come up with far more sophisticated concepts, just look quantum mechanics or general relativity.

If God exists, then in my opinion we are closest to him when we think and when we create and when we love and care for each other, not when we read a several thousand year old book which has many atrocities in it or when we listen to a several thousand year old Church that happens to be guilty of the Inquisition and many other injustices, and at the present time happens to condemn those who remarry after divorcing, those who have homosexual tendencies, those who don’t want to have large families but want to be involved in other areas of life, and the list goes on.
 
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mich7891:
From the authority of the Bible. Do you not believe this verse: “All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, *so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work. *” And by the way, you can look at the surrounding texts. It all says the same.
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Hello mich7891 and welcome to the forum. First of all please do what was recommended above and visit the main catholic answers website at www.catholic.com and search the various tracts. This way you will find out what Catholics really believe and why we believe it. Then you can come back here and question (not attack) our beliefs intelligently. I have been a member of this forum long enough to see that when you start posting with a title of a thread like you have done, you are soliciting negative confrontation. Many people on this forum are very knowledgeable and will provide the answers you require. If you are thinking that you are going to find ignorant cultural catholics on this forum and have come to evangelize, you have come to the wrong place. If you want to do evangelize, stand outside a Catholic Church and hand out tracts as your chances will be higher. I caution you that once you start discussing with us, you will truly see that we are not blindly following a faith created by man, but following a Church that was esablished by Jesus Christ himself. The reason why I caution you is as a former protestant myself I found myself no longer being able to remain protestant once I understood the link between Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. You will discover that Catholics are in full adherance and reverence to Sacred Scripture and are true Bible Believing Christians after all it was we that put the Bible together in the first place with guidance from the Holy Spirit, so why would be contradict something that we put together?

The above quotation is correct and every Christian should believe that ***all Scripture is inspired by God. ***So how are we Catholics in violation of this verse?
 
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askeptic:
If God exists, then in my opinion we are closest to him when we think and when we create and when we love and care for each other, not when we read a several thousand year old book which has many atrocities in it or when we listen to a several thousand year old Church that happens to be guilty of the Inquisition and many other injustices, and at the present time happens to condemn those who remarry after divorcing, those who have homosexual tendencies, those who don’t want to have large families but want to be involved in other areas of life, and the list goes on.
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If God does exist, He would have been the one to give us our reasoning capabilities. What good we achieve with these capabilities can then be considered blessings from God.

If God does exist, it would have been He who would have created us in the beginning. Why would He create us and then leave us without any knowledge about Him. There would have been no reason to create us.
 
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mastda:
Hello mich7891 and welcome to the forum. First of all please do what was recommended above and visit the main catholic answers website at www.catholic.com and search the various tracts. This way you will find out what Catholics really believe and why we believe it. Then you can come back here and question (not attack) our beliefs intelligently. I have been a member of this forum long enough to see that when you start posting with a title of a thread like you have done, you are soliciting negative confrontation. Many people on this forum are very knowledgeable and will provide the answers you require. If you are thinking that you are going to find ignorant cultural catholics on this forum and have come to evangelize, you have come to the wrong place. If you want to do evangelize, stand outside a Catholic Church and hand out tracts as your chances will be higher. I caution you that once you start discussing with us, you will truly see that we are not blindly following a faith created by man, but following a Church that was esablished by Jesus Christ himself. The reason why I caution you is as a former protestant myself I found myself no longer being able to remain protestant once I understood the link between Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. You will discover that Catholics are in full adherance and reverence to Sacred Scripture and are true Bible Believing Christians after all it was we that put the Bible together in the first place with guidance from the Holy Spirit, so why would be contradict something that we put together?
I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to attack. I was just trying to understand what Catholics believe, if it really is following the Word of God, and answer some questions I think are natural to the human mind.
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mich7891:
And how do I know the Catholic church is right? The Church is formed of MEN, who have sinned too. They themselves are guilty of breaking tthe Ten Commandments. If God hasn’t preserved His Word and let’s HUMANS decide what it means, how in the world did most of the apostles understand what Jesus was saying? If Jesus spoke in circles and high above their level (they were only fishermen), did each one individually interpret Jesus’ words to his own understanding? The church didn’t exist back then, so it couldn’t interpret Jesus’ words for them.
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“And with many such parables, he spoke to them the word, according as they were able to hear. And without parable he did not speak unto them; but apart, he explained all things to his disciples.” (Mark 4:33-34)

“But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother. And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.” (Matt 18:15-18)

Why would Jesus refer to the Church in His instructions to His disciples, if the Church did not exist.

Just because they were fishermen did not mean they were ignorant. I believe Jewish men had to ply a trade. Paul was a simple tentmaker after all.
 
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