while confessing, is the presence of a priest required?

[JRKH]

Is this really official as for the intent to Confess? From what I understand, one must make an Act of Perfect Contrition with the intent to Confess. In other words, one must be sorry primarily for having offended God but also because of Hell or one can be sorry solely for offending God and then tell God that and firmly intend to amend one’s life and go to Confession.

I don’t see that what you wrote here is different than what I wrote in any substantive way.

Peace
James

 

[onHisteam]

Ok then ,

“Work out you salvation with fear and trembling.”
If Paul cannot convince you that salvation is a process, I doubt anyone here can.

“we must endure trial and withstand the test in order to receive the crown of life.”.
If James cannot convince you, I doubt anyone here can.

“by His mercy we have been born anew to a living “hope”
through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.”.
If Peter cannot convince you, I doubt anyone here can.

“and everyone who thus “hopes” in Him purifies himself as He is pure.”.
If John cannot convince you, I doubt anyone here can.

concretecamper, I understand all this, I do not need convincincing… I am sorry you believe I do,
maybe it is because I am not catholic so therefore I am one who you call “protestant”,
So are you concluding I believe in the

…false doctrine that salvation is a one time event and salvation cannot
be lost.?

of course Salvation can be lost, I will say it once more…SALVATION CAN BE LOST…Do you hear me now?

Please here what I am saying when I say I am saved.
It is not a 1 time event, done and thats it.

of course the bible says …“Work out you salvation with fear and trembling.”

as I said in the previous post…

onHisteam View Post
you mean to tell me that right after you go to confession and pour your heart
out to the priest and confess those grave sins you may have comitted, repent,
say your penance you do not believe you are in a state of grace?

Of course - but to remain in a state of grace you must remain
in the Church and do what is required of Catholics.

And one of the requirements is to … “Work out you salvation with fear and trembling.” right?

and why is that? because as I posted…
And after you sin again after that, you have to repeat the process
all over again with confession right???

Right.

ok then…
But … let me insert my own but …you may not get a chance to …
“Work out you salvation with fear and trembling.”
What do I mean?
to repeat my last post

onHisteam View Post
you mean to tell me that right after you go to confession and pour your heart
out to the priest and confess those grave sins you may have comitted, repent,
say your penance you do not believe you are in a state of grace?

Of course - but…

STOP RIGHT HERE …LIGHTS OUT >>>>> YOUR HEART JUST STOPPED >>>
DEATH OCCURRED >>>>
are you saved or not right after you just said your penance?
You might go to purgatory you believe but certainly not hell right???
You are saved …you will eventually go to heaven right??

 

[HumbledSinner]

Beyond the scriptural basis of the Sacrament of Reconciliation (which in itself should be sufficient for any Christians) one can take into account the human aspect of this sacrament as well:

In the early churches, where communities were still small, a sin committed is not only displeasing to God but in many ways affected the Church as well (stealing can bring unwanted attention to the community; adultery can break the unity of the members, etc.). Confessing one’s sin to the Church leader (priest, bishop) was ones’ way of ‘reconciling’ himself back to the community (usually after a very long penance). By openly asking the priest for forgiveness and reconciliation, the sinner is making a sincere effort to be included back into the Church/community. A private confession cannot replace this act since the community has no way of knowing if the person is repenting for the sins he has committed and wishes to rejoin the community as a faithful follower of Christ.

Another aspect (I think I heard this from an Orthodox priest) is that without a confessor, one does not have absolute knowledge that their sins are forgiven. Only thru God’s agent - a priest, in persona Christi, can one be given absolute confirmation that one’s sins are forgiven.

One cannot simply argue that God will always forgive me if i ask for his forgiveness - since Jesus himself commanded

[BIBLEDRB]John_20:23[/BIBLEDRB]

this implies that a sin can be ‘retained’ - If the apostles where given this ability - I think it is safe to say the God can also enact such things. Without this confirmation that one’s sins are completely forgiven - one can linger in doubt and further endanger one’s soul.

- Dominus Vobiscum!

 

[JRKH]

Beyond the scriptural basis of the Sacrament of Reconciliation (which in itself should be sufficient for any Christians) one can take into account the human aspect of this sacrament as well:

In the early churches, where communities were still small, a sin committed is not only displeasing to God but in many ways affected the Church as well (stealing can bring unwanted attention to the community; adultery can break the unity of the members, etc.). Confessing one’s sin to the Church leader (priest, bishop) was ones’ way of ‘reconciling’ himself back to the community (usually after a very long penance). By openly asking the priest for forgiveness and reconciliation, the sinner is making a sincere effort to be included back into the Church/community. A private confession cannot replace this act since the community has no way of knowing if the person is repenting for the sins he has committed and wishes to rejoin the community as a faithful follower of Christ.

Another aspect (I think I heard this from an Orthodox priest) is that without a confessor, one does not have absolute knowledge that their sins are forgiven. Only thru God’s agent - a priest, in persona Christi, can one be given absolute confirmation that one’s sins are forgiven.

One cannot simply argue that God will always forgive me if i ask for his forgiveness - since Jesus himself commanded

[BIBLEDRB]John_20:23[/BIBLEDRB]

this implies that a sin can be ‘retained’ - If the apostles where given this ability - I think it is safe to say the God can also enact such things. Without this confirmation that one’s sins are completely forgiven - one can linger in doubt and further endanger one’s soul.

- Dominus Vobiscum!

Excellent post…

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

(Snip)

ok then…
But … (let me insert my own “but”) …you may not get a chance to …
“Work out you salvation with fear and trembling.”
What do I mean?
to repeat my last post

onHisteam View Post
you mean to tell me that right after you go to confession and pour your heart
out to the priest and confess those grave sins you may have committed, repent,
say your penance you do not believe you are in a state of grace?

Originally Posted by jmcrae >>
Of course - but…

If I my butt in here…
You say that a person might not have a chance to work out their salvation in fear and trembling…
In point of fact this person HAS “worked out their salvation with fear and trembling”.
Why would you think that s/he has not?

Peace
James

 

[onHisteam]

If I my butt in here…
You say that a person might not have a chance to work out their salvation in fear and trembling…
In point of fact this person HAS “worked out their salvation with fear and trembling”.
Why would you think that s/he has not?

Peace
James

ok …let me spell it out for you …man why you keep adding additional thoughts, and not answering my question…

Today as I post this is 8:45 and you as a Catholic have,

to paraphrase concretecamper …
Worked out your salvation with fear and trembling.
you have endured trial and withstood the test in order to receive the crown of life.
and
by His mercy you have been born anew to a living “hope”
through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
and you who thus “hopes” in Him purified yourself as He is pure…

and know whoever desires to answer this, falls into a grave sin for whatever reason.
we all agree God will not save you, if that sin is not confessed…right???

fortunately there is open confession at 8:46.
you go to confession and pour your heart out to the priest and confess that grave sin and/or any others you may have comitted, repent, say your penance …
and
as you are getting up from your knees…

BAM >>>> LIGHTS OUT >>>>> YOUR HEART JUST STOPPED >>>
DEATH OCCURRED >>>>
You might go to purgatory to be purged if that is what you believe but certainly not hell right???
if this is true then eventually you will go to heaven right??
God has saved you right???

So then at the immediate moment you get off your knees in penance, you are saved, Right??

I am not asking what may happen tomorrow, or next week,
All I am asking is are you saved at the moment you say amen in you pentinant prayer.

If yes, then you are saved until the moment when you fall again right???

that’s why I posted this a few back
"And after you sin again after that, you have to repeat the process all over again with confession right??? "

to which jmcrae answered

Of course - but to remain in a state of grace you must remain in the Church and do what is required of Catholics.
Right.

All I am looking for is another simple yes or no to a few questions

Is that to hard to ask?

So based on the scenario I just posted, I am asking what you as a Catholic believe for you as an individual when you go to confession.
I am not asking for your opinion about me or anyone else JUST YOU
I AM INTERESTED IN WHAT YOU BELIEVE ABOUT YOU
Are YOU saved right after you say your pentinant prayers?
A yes answer means you believe will go to heaven with a temporary stop in purgatory.

 

[JRKH]

So based on the scenario I just posted, I am asking what you as a Catholic believe for you as an individual when you go to confession.
I am not asking for your opinion about me or anyone else JUST YOU
I AM INTERESTED IN WHAT YOU BELIEVE ABOUT YOU
Are YOU saved right after you say your pentinant prayers?

YES…In this case I am assured heaven. I am saved.

Sorry that I did not specifically answer your question before…I got sidetracked by your comment…
"But … (let me insert my own “but”) …you may not get a chance to …
“Work out you salvation with fear and trembling.”
…Which, from the way the post was written, seemed to be the premise upon which you were building. Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying.

Peace
James

 

[rcwitness]

I’ve read many early posts in this thread. Lots of good ones…and discussion.

A couple aspects that i didnt notice (if they were, sorry):

 We have been talking about sins committed by the Baptized believer, right?  So, to become a saved believer, we need to acknowledge we are sinners before the Church in order to receive baptism. We dont pray to God alone and then baptize ourselves. Then, as a new man, with a new Spirit, in a new fellowship with brothers and sisters in Him, we sometimes revert to our old ways. The ways of when we were in the world. This is betrayal to our family, the Church, too! Sin is against God, but not God alone. God has united Himself to His people through His son. We are one body...the Catholic Reconciliation recognizes this.

The denominations fails to incorporate the bonds of the mystical body of Christ. This is a result of diminishing the Holy Communion of His body and blood. All Sacraments are connected to the Holy Sacrament of His Eucharist.

You are right to pray to God and seek His forgiveness. I believe you can be forgiven. Only you know your relationship with Him. Catholics, however, choose a greater way. It is bonded to humility, Apostolic teaching, unity with all believers and a continual service to each other for the forgiveness of sins. God bless your relationship in Him.

Michael

 

[JRKH]

I’ve read many early posts in this thread. Lots of good ones…and discussion.

A couple aspects that i didnt notice (if they were, sorry):

 We have been talking about sins committed by the Baptized believer, right?  So, to become a saved believer, we need to acknowledge we are sinners before the Church in order to receive baptism. We dont pray to God alone and then baptize ourselves. Then, as a new man, with a new Spirit, in a new fellowship with brothers and sisters in Him, we sometimes revert to our old ways. The ways of when we were in the world. This is betrayal to our family, the Church, too! Sin is against God, but not God alone. God has united Himself to His people through His son. We are one body...the Catholic Reconciliation recognizes this.

The denominations fails to incorporate the bonds of the mystical body of Christ. This is a result of diminishing the Holy Communion of His body and blood. All Sacraments are connected to the Holy Sacrament of His Eucharist.

You are right to pray to God and seek His forgiveness. I believe you can be forgiven. Only you know your relationship with Him. Catholics, however, choose a greater way. It is bonded to humility, Apostolic teaching, unity with all believers and a continual service to each other for the forgiveness of sins. God bless your relationship in Him.

Michael

 

[onHisteam]

Sorry that I did not specifically answer your question before…I got sidetracked by your comment…
"But … (let me insert my own “but”) …you may not get a chance to …
“Work out you salvation with fear and trembling.”
…Which, from the way the post was written, seemed to be the premise upon which you were building. Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying.

Do not feel bad, mostly everyone else does too.
I am a “protestant” in your eyes and every other Catholic therefore I must believe in OSAS, right?

Well OSAS is a bunch of _____________ you can fill in the blank, lol

Lets move on, Now we getting somewhere

So based on the scenario I posted, I asked what you as a Catholic believe for you as an individual when you go to confession.

I asked, Are YOU saved right after you say your pentinant prayers?
you answered,

YES…In this case*** I am assured*** heaven. I am saved.

Well God bless you. thank you.

For that moment in time you are saved, guaranteed heaven, should the Lord call you home right there.

GREAT…

But, there is that but again, you realize if your heart does not stop right there, there is a good chance at some point in the future you may lose that salvation and fall out of a state of grace and will need to become saved again through confession, right??

I assuming you will agree.

Now let me try to ask a question again.
This one is directly related to why I started this thread

If you are cruising the Carribean and you happen to fall into a grave sin…
Let’s say you had a heated argument and you took the Lords name in vain …
what would you do at the moment when things calmed down and you realize you committed a grave sin and now, more importantly, you have sinned resulting in being denied access into heaven by God?
Would you?

A) get on your knees and confess, repent, ask God to forgive you while you are still on the ship

or

B) Wait until you arrived back home and go to the next available confession?

If you answered A, do you believe then you are saved.??

The reason I ask is because
unknown to you the ship you were on would suffer a fatal explosion and you were one of the fatalities

If you answered B, then …
what is your belief if you never made it back home alive to confess that sin.?
i.e. you died in a plane crash on the return trip home

sorry for the morbid questions, it is the only way I know how to EXACTLY ask the question I want to minimize all misunderstanding

 

[Reuben_J]

I am not asking for your opinion about me or anyone else JUST YOU
I AM INTERESTED IN WHAT YOU BELIEVE ABOUT YOU
Are YOU saved right after you say your pentinant prayers?

Knowing how this will be perceived, a Catholic cannot answer this satisfactorily without being faulted in some ways. The reason is because ‘being saved’ is very much a Protestant’s language and even if a Catholic is using it, we probably are not in the same wave wavelength.

You see, we cannot say we are saved even after going to the Confession. The reason is simply because only God knows whether we are truly forgiven or not, the earlier condition for forgiveness notwithstanding. Is my regret genuine enough? Have I done sincere penance and the necessary restitution? Thus we assume in faith that we are forgiven because we have followed the necessary step required of the Sacrament of Confession but ultimately it is God who decides. We can only believe in His promise on the forgiveness of sin.

Personally I would feel that a Protestant’s question to Catholics, “Are you being saved” is a trap that always contradicts with our belief somehow. For we know that we are truly saved only after receiving the Judgment and be with God in heaven or at least in Purgatory. But far from it, this does not mean we do not have hope and confidence in the Lord’s saving power. We just do not wish to be presumptive and would not take what is to be God’s own prerogative.

 

[JRKH]

Do not feel bad, mostly everyone else does too.
I am a “protestant” in your eyes and every other Catholic therefore I must believe in OSAS, right?

Wrong - there are many Catholics here who realize that there are many protestants who deny the error of OSAS…

I admit that very early on I thought you probably believed in OSAS - based on your description as “pentecostal” and I think (though maybe I’ wrong) that OSAS is a commonly held belief among pentecostal communities.
However you long ago - either on this thread or the other one - made it cleat that you are not an adherent of OSAS.

Lets move on, Now we getting somewhere

So based on the scenario I posted, I asked what you as a Catholic believe for you as an individual when you go to confession.

I asked, Are YOU saved right after you say your pentinant prayers?
you answered,

Well God bless you. thank you.

For that moment in time you are saved, guaranteed heaven, should the Lord call you home right there.

GREAT…

But, there is that but again, you realize if your heart does not stop right there, there is a good chance at some point in the future you may lose that salvation and fall out of a state of grace and will need to become saved again through confession, right??

I assuming you will agree.

uh-oh----That’s what you get for assuming…
I have never once left confession thinking that, “there is a good chance at some point in the future you may lose that salvation and fall out of a state of grace…”

1. When one come to the Lord - or returns to Him after having fallen away - their intent is to firmly adhere to the Lord and to be humbly obedient to Him…The desire is to remain in a state of grace, and to grow in holiness - getting stronger and stronger. Certainly there will be failures…but those failures, so long as they are not deliberate and willful do not separate one from God’s grace.
   Such failures will weaken one but a deliberate and consistent participation in the sacraments can prevent one from EVER falling out of grace again…

To better understand what I am talking about above…you need to have a good understanding of the Catholic teaching on sin - Mortal sin and venial sin…THIS might help

Now let me try to ask a question again.
This one is directly related to why I started this thread

OK - and I will answer as clearly as I can…but we may need further clarification…Again - I suggest that you read the link I provided above.

If you are cruising the Carribean and you happen to fall into a grave sin…
Let’s say you had a heated argument and you took the Lords name in vain …
what would you do at the moment when things calmed down and you realize you committed a grave sin and now, more importantly, you have sinned resulting in being denied access into heaven by God?

Before going on - let me note here that, in the scenario above, the grave sin would not likely be considered mortal - grave yes, but not mortal - because in the heat of argument I did not deliberately and intentionally commit the sin. Therefore…I would not be denied access to heaven by God - though I would be culpable for the sin…more time in purgatory…

Would you?

A) get on your knees and confess, repent, ask God to forgive you while you are still on the ship

or

B) Wait until you arrived back home and go to the next available confession?

If you answered A, do you believe then you are saved.??

Now - in the interest of answering your question - If I did at some point on the cruise…Deliberately and intentionally deny God’s lordship over my life and return to sin (this is really a fundamental basis for all mortal sin) - then - once I realized what I had done and repented, I would do - “A” followed by getting to confession at the earliest opportunity. Since the Caribbean has many Catholic Churches - if we stop at one of the islands I would seek one out and go to confession. I might also ask on board ship if there happened to be a priest on board and go to confession that way…
In either case - I would commit to getting to confession as soon as possible…

The reason I ask is because
unknown to you the ship you were on would suffer a fatal explosion and you were one of the fatalities

If you answered B, then …
what is your belief if you never made it back home alive to confess that sin.?
i.e. you died in a plane crash on the return trip home

The belief is that the sincere intent and plan to confess would be sufficient. I have already repented and placed myself before God’s mercy.
If I should die before I am able to confess to a priest, (actin “in persona Christi”) then I will confess directly to Christ at my judgement. It will then be up to Him to deal with me as I deserve.

sorry for the morbid questions, it is the only way I know how to EXACTLY ask the question I want to minimize all misunderstanding

No problem…We are use to all sorts of “yea but what if…” scenarios…

I hope the above is fairly clear for you…

Though at this point I have to say it sounds like we have already been over this…So - is it a matter of you trying to get a better handle on Catholic teaching - or are you trying to prove some point or……?

I’m willing to let you lead with questions and I’ll try to answer them…But it can be helpful to know what your goal is.

Peace
James

 

[onHisteam]

Michael, thank you so much for acknowledging that I believe in the same God as you without all the “let me test him” questions.

Only you know your relationship with Him. God bless your relationship in Him.

Amen, thank you again Mike

I’ve read many early posts in this thread. Lots of good ones…and discussion

yes they are

A couple aspects that i didnt notice (if they were, sorry)

no sorrys

Catholics, however, choose a greater way.

ah a greater way you believe, I admire your faithfulness, but not the only way one can be forgiven, in what you believe, right?

You are right to pray to God and seek His forgiveness. I believe you can be forgiven.

When I confess my sins before God, I can promise you that my confession is no less sincere,
contrite or repentant than your confession.

…the Catholic Reconciliation recognizes this.

Here is another difference, I know this is what you believe,
many “protestant” churches believe that you belong to the body of believers in Christ if…just that…
One believes who Jesus Christ is and what He has done for us…that is …
God in the flesh, who went to the cross, died, rose, and ascended into heaven.
nd He(God) is the only way by which our sins are forgiven at the moment of confession
The only difference is between you going to confession and I is the fact that there is no priest present.

relationship to God …

is bonded to humility,

Amen, It is quite humble for me to give a testimony in front of members of the church,
sharing with them a sinful addiction I have. And then asking one to be an accountability partner
who I give permission to ask me question on how I am progressing in my struggles

Apostolic teaching

Have pastorial teaching and devotion from the bible… twice on Sunday and once on Wed night.

unity with all believers and a continual service to each other for the forgiveness of sins.

The opportunity to love support and have fellowship and forgive each other within the body of believers
and to be united with them for the cause of Jesus Christ is a true blessing

We have been talking about sins committed by the Baptized believer, right?

right

So, to become a saved believer, we need to acknowledge we are sinners before the Church in order to receive baptism.

Here is where we have a disagreement in our beliefs,
I would say it this way…
So, to become a saved believer, we need to acknowledge we are sinners before God in order to receive baptism.
It is good to be baptized in front of many witnesses of the church body, but my acknowledgement and admission of sin is always made to God

after we are baptized, we then become as you said …

a new man, with a new Spirit, in a new fellowship with brothers and sisters in Him,

amen

we sometimes revert to our old ways. The ways of when we were in the world. This is betrayal to our family, the Church, too! Sin is against God, but not God alone.

Amen to all… Sin against God is the most important

God has united Himself to His people through His son. We are one body

Amen…one body of believers in our Lord Jesus Christ…Amen

The denominations fails to incorporate the bonds of the mystical body of Christ.

And from your above illustrations, I fail to see what bonds you are referring…
What bonds?

This is a result of diminishing the Holy Communion of His body and blood. All Sacraments are connected to the Holy Sacrament of His Eucharist.

Ok so you believe we are diminishing Holy Communion because you believe that we are denying ourselves taking in the body every Sunday and having done so there is a mystical power which takes place.

Ok, I will let you know the only difference between you receiving and communion and me is that onefact. Otherwise, it is a time to remember that we are sinners in a lost world saved by the gracious unconditional love our God has for us through the sacrifice of His son Jesus Christ on the cross.

We don’t pray to God alone

you do not??
when you are at the altar reciting the Lords Prayer, who are you praying to besides God?

and then baptize ourselves.

I have not heard of one person who baptized themself… where did you here that

 

[onHisteam]

The Goal is to understand the exact difference between the way Catholics and who you call “protestants” view sin and how it is forgiven

And if the following is true belief of all Catholics, then by George goal accomplished …

If I should die before I am able to confess to a priest, (actin “in persona Christi”) then I will confess directly to Christ at my judgement.

It is my belief that we can not be forgiven of any sin after physical death…

As Christ followers, what we will be judged on after death is not whether or not we still have sin on our soul but rather on the works we did for God’s kingdom

your missionary work will definitely be rewarded and count wonders over my hobby to build model airplanes and race cars for a living

 

[onHisteam]

Knowing how this will be perceived, a Catholic cannot answer this satisfactorily without being faulted in some ways. The reason is because ‘being saved’ is very much a Protestant’s language and even if a Catholic is using it, we probably are not in the same wave wavelength.

You see, we cannot say we are saved even after going to the Confession. The reason is simply because only God knows whether we are truly forgiven or not, the earlier condition for forgiveness notwithstanding. Is my regret genuine enough? Have I done sincere penance and the necessary restitution? Thus we assume in faith that we are forgiven because we have followed the necessary step required of the Sacrament of Confession but ultimately it is God who decides. We can only believe in His promise on the forgiveness of sin.

Personally I would feel that a Protestant’s question to Catholics, “Are you being saved” is a trap that always contradicts with our belief somehow. For we know that we are truly saved only after receiving the Judgment and be with God in heaven or at least in Purgatory. But far from it, this does not mean we do not have hope and confidence in the Lord’s saving power. We just do not wish to be presumptive and would not take what is to be God’s own prerogative.

I can understand all you are saying Reuben but

to this James answered with a thumbs up…

so based on the scenario I posted, I asked what you as a Catholic believe for you as an individual when you go to confession.

I asked, Are YOU saved right after you say your pentinant prayers?
you answered,yes

Well God bless you. thank you.

For that moment in time you are saved, guaranteed heaven, should the Lord call you home right there.

GREAT…

James gave me a thumbs up

So who is correct, Is James being presumptuous?

Isn’t that what John 3:16 says?
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but **have eternal life. **

God’s promise, isn’t it?

Remember how free you felt the other night, do not let those chains bind you again
That is what the enemy wants

 

[ffg]

Hi all,

If he, while on the sands of the seashore, looks up to heaven and prays to God
confessing and repenting his sin/s,

**Do you believe …
God will forgive him of his sin/s and restore his soul to a state of grace? **

If you believe God will forgive him,** then there is no need to confess the same sins again **in confession to a priest because there is no sin to confess.
God forgave him and restored his soul to a state of grace when he confessed on the shore…yes?

if no, then you believe…
**God will not forgive him of his sin/s and not restore his soul to a state of grace
until he goes to confession with a priest present, correct? **
thank you in advance,

God bless

God can do anything, we don’t dictate what God does, nor is it good to assume we know what he will do. God’s mercy is great. This we know. Scenario’s to play with are many, this we know too.

There is great confusion here over 2 very different subject matter - what the State of Grace is and what lasting damage sin does to the soul. I’m going to focus on the first, I responded to the second in our ealier conversation.

State of Grace is not a state of perfection. It’s an open communication channel, a delivery route between the human and God. The avenue in which to blossom a relationship.

The State of Grace closes down through mortal sin.

As we are the one’s who close the channel, it is not in our power to open it.

One of God’s purposes in coming to earth was to institute the process to reopen the channel. It is in God’s mercy and love that the channel be opened through our sincere application of sacraments. But we have to decide and act (go to confession) to display that sincerity.

sidenote: It would be great to stand on a beach without having to tell a soul about misgivings and be absolved. It’s just not what God put in place for HIM to do repairs on what we break.

Just to help understand, there is much more to confession than telling sins and absolution, you have sorrow, confession, absolution, penance, restitution (if necessary).

To understand better this point is first to understand the value in suffering, in humility.

It’s not easy to go to confession when you know you have to say some serious stuff. There is purpose and value here. We need to understand our sinfulness.

Most of us don’t know our sinfulness, thus the example we went through ealier with those who spend the most time in confession. They don’t look like people that would sin much, but they understand their sinfulness much more than the rest of us who zip in and out (or for that matter, those that don’t go to confession).

 

[JRKH]

I can understand all you are saying Reuben but

to this James answered with a thumbs up…

James gave me a thumbs up

So who is correct, Is James being presumptuous?

Isn’t that what John 3:16 says?
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but **have eternal life. **

God’s promise, isn’t it?

Remember how free you felt the other night, do not let those chains bind you again
That is what the enemy wants

OHS…Please be very careful in how you compare the answers given. Actually My answer and Rueben’s answer are not really contradictory to each other.
It must also be remembered that my answer was to the very specific point of if one died directly after making an honest, sincere and forthright confession. You were looking for the simplest and most direct answer to your specific scenario. That is what I gave you.

Reuben’s response is taking a somewhat different approach - dealing Somewhat with terminology and understandings between the Catholic view and the protestant one.
While I think that Reuben perhaps takes a bit too pessimistic attitude in regards to our condition directly after confession…One cannot totally discount the issues that he raises.

It is not reasonable to take my very simplistic answer to your very simplistic scenario and try to set it against the more detailed answer that Reuben gave.

You said in your post above that, “The Goal is to understand the exact difference between the way Catholics and who you call “protestants” view sin and how it is forgiven”.
This is a laudable goal. I hope that you read the section of the catechism I linked to earlier. This will provide the best answer to the matter or how we view sin.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

The Goal is to understand the exact difference between the way Catholics and who you call “protestants” view sin and how it is forgiven

And if the following is true belief of all Catholics, then by George goal accomplished …

It is my belief that we can not be forgiven of any sin after physical death…

As Christ followers, what we will be judged on after death is not whether or not we still have sin on our soul but rather on the works we did for God’s kingdom

your missionary work will definitely be rewarded and count wonders over my hobby to build model airplanes and race cars for a living

Something that you might find interesting ---- as you felt compelled to share the video with me, I feel compelled to share this with you.

St Catherine of Sienna is a “Doctor of the Church” and a mystic. During a period of time in her life she asked God to answer four questions for her…She prayed deeply on the matter and at various times went into ecstasies during which she would speak - as though God was speaking through her. I share this because you will find what I link to here to be written in the first person…as the Father is the one speaking.

Anyway - go HERE and scroll down to the 6th paragraph and begin reading. It is an account of what happens at the moment of death to souls in one of three conditions.
To me - this description is a beautiful expression of what we are trying to get at here.

Peace
James

 

[rcwitness]

Michael, thank you so much for acknowledging that I believe in the same God as you without all the “let me test him” questions.

of course we are in communion through the word of God and our baptism…though I dont know, only the Lord of hearts

I know you havent that was my point. Why then do we expect to repent to god alone after rejecting His gracious life in us?

thanks so much for hearing me out and sharing your agreements and dissagreements. I am not offended by any of your faith. It is good.

Michael

 

[rcwitness]

Sorry for the botched quotes! I have to fix that next time

Michael