whither faith?

[Figaro_Jones]

I’m curious to hear some thoughts about faith. Mine seems to be mostly gone–faith in many of the specifics of Catholicism (and, for that matter, Christianity), that is. I’m not happy about this; I miss the days when I believed. And I used to be quite the believer, or at least I found solace of a kind in the details of Catholic dogma and doctrine. But my “faith” was likely always a fairly thin soup, and in recent years it seems to have drained away almost completely. Here are a few examples of where my thinking is at this point:

• The Bible as the word of God and Church Tradition as a rock of truth—who says?
• A “personal relationship with Jesus”–I can’t say I’ve ever had that, and frankly I don’t know what it even means. My guess is that it’s likely just a set of emotions, thoughts, feelings, that a person consoles himself with—not an objective reality. Impossible to say, really. Human psychology is complex.
• “Just ask for faith and you will receive it.” This sort of advice requires an intellectual maneuver akin to pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps—i.e., you have to have a certain amount of faith to even make the plea. If you don’t believe in a thing, how do you “make yourself” believe in that thing?
• “Just pray about it.” Same problem as above.

All that said, I believe in God. I believe there’s a moral law underlying all of creation. I believe we are to be moral people and do our best to practice selfless service to others. That much I can feel in my bones, as I think any reasonably attuned human can. Beyond that, though, it’s hard to discern any details that one can really embrace as objectively true.

I’m not sure what I’m asking for here. Just thoughts, I suppose. As I say, I miss the days when I believed.

 

[sawman]

Dear Figaro Jones,

You sound to me like your faith is at a very basic, good level.
Jesus said, the greatest commandment was to love the Lord your God with your whole heart soul and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself.

It sounds to me as if you’ve got those bases covered. Sometimes we need a new source of information or some new events in our lives to stimulate a new perspective on things. Maybe tis is the case with you. To believe in Him is a way to love Him. The moral law is about how we love our neighbor.

You know computer guys have that saying, garbage in-garbage out. Maybe your in need of a new routine, change of habits, something like that.

I’ll pray for you. God bless you.

 

[beckycmarie]

Someone I know converted to the Catholic faith after being a Baptist minister.

He had a hard time accepting some things about the faith, and I think what he has to say applies in your situation.

Basically he just accepted the faith out of cold obedience, and then the understanding followed:

I have found obedience to be a salvation. Two examples:

My Conversion to the Catholic Church: When I finally sat down and took a look at Scripture honestly (and literally) I found that it was the Catholic Church, not the Baptist Church who truly interpreted Scripture literally. (i.e., the Real Presence, the Chair of Peter). When I looked at history I found that, too, the Catholics were right after all. When confronted with these Truths, I had a decision to make. Either obey Truth, or follow delusion—either become Catholic, or remain Protestant. I obeyed the Truth even though I didn’t understand it all.

My devotion to Mary: Although I was convinced of the authority of the Church, the Real Presence, and all, I was not so convinced about the communion of the saints and the doctrine on Mary. That took a little while longer. But since I knew that the Church had the AUTHORITY to declare these doctrines, I simply OBEYED.
Was my “belief” from the heart? No. Did I “feel” the devotion to Mary? No. I merely obeyed the Church and believed in the doctrine of Mary and the communion of the saints out of shear cold obedience.

But then something odd happened. Almost immediately after I obeyed the Church on this and submitted my mind and will to the Church’s teachings, all of a sudden, I began to understand the doctrine. It was almost like magic. I began to “know” what these doctrines were about. In short order I found myself no longer obeying in cold submission, but in understanding also. I had come to understand and to agree with the doctrine through the reason of my mind.

Still, something was missing—the devotion of my heart. Within one month after the cold obedience, followed by the revelation of intellect given to me to understand (only after the obedience), finally came an understanding of the heart.

*-From Obedience, the First and Foundational Virtue *
by Bro. Ignatius Mary (a Hermit of St. Michael)

 

[Figaro_Jones]

sawman, thanks for the good thoughts. You’re absolutely right, too, about the change of habit, change of routine being a help. I appreciate your prayers.

beckycmarie, I appreciate your thoughts too. I’ve actually tried that route more than once–just act as though I believe it, and eventually real faith will come. I think that can work for some people–and maybe it would work for me if I stuck with it long enough–but if you followed such a route, how would you ever know that you weren’t just fooling yourself? To me, that comes to little more than “I believe it because I believe it,” and that’s not a terribly compelling line of reasoning, I’m afraid. Even taking that first step “I’ll just go on cold obedience at first” seems an impossible route to take genuinely–as my question at this point would be obedience to who? And why them?

Thanks

 

[sawman]

Dear Figaro Jones,
I don’t know how long you’ve had this condition,but I have in the past experienced a similar period of lethargy and slippage. It was always followed by a resolve to change and get more serious about my relationship with God,etc.

Much to my sorrow, it’s taken so many years to have my relationship with God to mean enough to do some real changing to my routine and habits. It is an incredible thing for me to realize what a distaction from God and Godly things so much of my life had become.I guess it depends how much any of this stuff really means to one. It’s like my son says,“Dad, I know this stuff is important, but I just don’t care right now.”.

I’m not saying your in that conditon,but you could be if you can’t or won’t “light the fire” to reconcile the condition.

Peace!

 

[beckycmarie]

beckycmarie, I appreciate your thoughts too. I’ve actually tried that route more than once–just act as though I believe it, and eventually real faith will come. I think that can work for some people–and maybe it would work for me if I stuck with it long enough–but if you followed such a route, how would you ever know that you weren’t just fooling yourself? To me, that comes to little more than “I believe it because I believe it,” and that’s not a terribly compelling line of reasoning, I’m afraid. Even taking that first step “I’ll just go on cold obedience at first” seems an impossible route to take genuinely–as my question at this point would be obedience to who? And why them?

Thanks

Figaro,

I don’t know if this will help at all, but I’ll share the experience I had and how it brought about that deep understanding so that I don’t have to rely on “cold obedience” anymore.

When I finally decided to stop being a cafeteria Catholic, I just accepted the teachings as true and right even if they were hard to follow.

I made the first good confession of my life, and resolved to go to Mass every Sunday and Holy Day (more often if I can make it to daily Mass.) I haven’t missed a Sunday or Holy Day since.

I made an effort to avoid sin, and to pray/meditate every morning.

Soon afterwards, I began to experience some consolations from God - the warm fuzzy feelings God sends beginners to encourage them to continue in their journey. Those feelings tend to go away over time, but you are often left with a sense of peace that lets you know you are heading in the right direction.

Faith is usually not a feeling at the beginning, but a choice. Over time if you stick with it, God will give you little glimpses of Himself that will make it pretty hard to doubt His existence and that what His Church says is true.

 

[JohnJFarren]

JMJ / MMM 080516 Friday –
Greetings Figaro –
You wrote you never had “a personal relationship with Jesus.” I wonder if you’re not mistaken about that. Let me explain. In this regard you wrote the words “feelings” and “emotions.” There is no essential relationship between a personal relationship with Jesus … and feeling or emotionally experiencing that you have or did have such a personal relationship. I further explain. (Be patient, please.) Consider (imaginary, perhaps) someone whom you dislike intensely. George? Thomas? Adolf Hitler? Obviously you don’t like this particular person. Now here’s a truth > You could love that person SO MUCH that someday you might even begin to like that person. The “love” in that sentence is a deliberate free choice act … totally devoid in this instance of any good feeling or any good emotion.
I strongly suspect that in the past when you did believe in the basic truths of Christianity, you did have a personal relationship with Jesus. But you never distinguished, you never separated your feelings, your emotions, from your deliberate free choice actions. Think back. Did you never have in you sincerely attitudes of worship and thanksgiving toward God? toward Jesus Christ? I think you did. Then … you did have a personal relationship with God … with Jesus.
You expressed disappointment with the advice, “Just ask for faith and you will receive it.” Most people misunderstand what “Ask and you will receive” means. It is obvious to everyone that not every child who asks “in Jesus’ Name” for a red bicycle for Christmas gets one. As a matter of fact the vast majority of such children don’t get their red bicycle.
Jesus Christ himself got a firm NO from his Father. “Father, if it be possible, let this chalice [suffering and death] pass from me” I’m scared. I’m overwhelmed with fear and darkness. Please! “Yet not my will but Your Will be done.” And the Father’s answer?
We need to have a more mature understanding of what that promise of Jesus means. “If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.” “Ask the Father anything in my name and He will grant it.” God does have a Great lan for His creation. And it doesn’t have primarily to do with red bicycles … nor with a vast array of other things. Throughout the vast inter-twinings of this tapestry there runs one all encompassing purpose and goal … the Eternal Salvation of every intelligent creature. Whatever is related to that Final Purpose is what we should pray for … and it is that to which these “He will do it” promises pertain.
Figaro, I don’t like all that either. But that’s the way it is. And God IS right. And I tell God I DON’T LIKE IT’
Praying for the gift of faith is not like pulling ourselves up by our own bootstraps. There’s a basis within ourselves that draws forth our prayer for faith. First of all, faith IS a gift and we do not and cannot merit it. You wrote, “I miss the days when I believed.” Yes, and is there no lingering hope for those days? No lingering trace for a return to them … that they were “true” days and “right” days? I think in you there is. Anyone who prays for the gift of faith – or a return of that gift – certainly has some faint hope, a desire for faith.
And have you actually prayed, insistently, regularly, for God to make clear to you whatever is the true and right way? How many times we might say to someone, “Yes, I will pray for you.? And did we do it? Really? I assume without question you are sincere. You wrote, “I believe in God.” A God Who has interest in right and wrong? In so many words you say yes. Well then, how about actually asking this God, regularly, to help you? Or do you think you’ll handle it all yourself?
You rightly distinguish between what you think is true and what is objectively true. Yes, of course. If we think, we all do. There are only one or two things between which there is an exact correspondence between the objective thing and our understanding. Only one or two. All the other things we know involve, more or less, a good or better or poor focusing. Oftentimes we can have a true and partial understanding that is certainly not perfect but is true. And we continue over the years to focus better and better … and the understanding sees more and more. Because you do not have a perfectly focused understanding of something, certainly does not call for you to discard what is only partially understood. Stephen Vincent Benet wrote a short story named, Truth Is a Hard Deer to Hunt. I think you might enjoy it.
Figaro, may the God you believe in let you know how very much He/She Loves you! – even enough to IDENTITY with you and all of us and all our garbage and sins.
John (JohnJFarren) Trinity5635@aol.com

 

[CatsAndDogs]

I’m curious to hear some thoughts about faith. Mine seems to be mostly gone–faith in many of the specifics of Catholicism (and, for that matter, Christianity), that is. I’m not happy about this; I miss the days when I believed. And I used to be quite the believer, or at least I found solace of a kind in the details of Catholic dogma and doctrine. But my “faith” was likely always a fairly thin soup, and in recent years it seems to have drained away almost completely. Here are a few examples of where my thinking is at this point:

• The Bible as the word of God and Church Tradition as a rock of truth—who says?
• A “personal relationship with Jesus”–I can’t say I’ve ever had that, and frankly I don’t know what it even means. My guess is that it’s likely just a set of emotions, thoughts, feelings, that a person consoles himself with—not an objective reality. Impossible to say, really. Human psychology is complex.
• “Just ask for faith and you will receive it.” This sort of advice requires an intellectual maneuver akin to pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps—i.e., you have to have a certain amount of faith to even make the plea. If you don’t believe in a thing, how do you “make yourself” believe in that thing?
• “Just pray about it.” Same problem as above.

All that said, I believe in God. I believe there’s a moral law underlying all of creation. I believe we are to be moral people and do our best to practice selfless service to others. That much I can feel in my bones, as I think any reasonably attuned human can. Beyond that, though, it’s hard to discern any details that one can really embrace as objectively true.

I’m not sure what I’m asking for here. Just thoughts, I suppose. As I say, I miss the days when I believed.

This sounds like a condition that I’ve cycled through all my life, which was never “attached” to my religion, as I was never religious at all in any way.

I liken it to being on a tree limb,
trying to pick and hold onto as
many of the “fruits of salvation” as I can,
rapidly discovering that I’m becoming
unstable in my footing,
dropping as many “fruits” as I’m picking,
feeling more and more desparate that my
dropping the plucked “fruits” is a MAJOR “sin”,
that I’m crushing the plucked “fruits”
in trying to hold onto them more and more forcefully,
and that this attempt to gain “salvation”
is a really BAD idea in the first place
because it produces more EVIL (“fruits” abuse)
than progress toward any “salvation”.

… my answer is to pluck the best looking “fruit” within reach, find a safe place to enjoy it, eat it to find the maximum joy in the eating, savor it’s recent presence and present absence from my mouth,

… and move on to the next most beautiful “fruit”.

Being able to humbly accept that every fruit brings everything we need at that time, and that delving deeply into each “fruit” allows us to not need to be THRILLED with the “DANGER” of acquisitive addiction, which leads only to burn-out and overwhelm.

What is truth? What is real? What is Help? These are the questions I see in your “symptoms”.

Pick one sacrament. Taste and enjoy it’s truth until it’s truth is real to you, and ponder how it is that that “fruit” was helped to come to you.

 

[Figaro_Jones]

Thanks again, all, for the thoughts.

CatsAndDogs, I’m not sure I understand your advice. The only fruit within my reach at this point seems to be my rather plain belief in God. Also, not sure what you mean when you say you were “never religious at all in any way.” What do you mean there?

JohnJFarren, I appreciate your effort, and I think I’m following you, though frankly it might help me to see your ideas expressed more concisely. If you’re saying what I think you’re saying – that we don’t always get from God what we ask for, that faith is a gift, that my current understanding of “truth” is hazy but that I should hope and pray for light–then I agree with you, but I’m not sure any of that gets me a step further out of my starting gate. i.e., those are more or less restatements of my problem as originally posed.

It’s appreciated, though.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Thanks again, all, for the thoughts.

CatsAndDogs, I’m not sure I understand your advice. The only fruit within my reach at this point seems to be my rather plain belief in God. Also, not sure what you mean when you say you were “never religious at all in any way.” What do you mean there?

Your first “problem” was about the Bible and Church Tradition being true.

You have a “rather plain” belief in God. While being as humble as possible, let your “plain” belief in God completely consume you. Let it seep into your entire being. You already know the absolute reality of God, which is your belief, without ANY supporting material, such as a book or what a bunch of people say.

When that “fruit” is fully savored, let it pass from your mouth into your inside. Remember how wonderful it tasted in your mouth shortly ago. Feel how no longer having it in your mouth creates a longing for it which simply won’t be denied.

You know God. But why? Because the tree you are perched in brought it to you. What is that tree?

The tree was described by others before it bore fruit so that those they loved could find it and recognize it. The tree bore fruit which many have tasted. The fruit was described by others for those they loved. You found the tree in fruition due to those who loved you before you were born.

The elder’s words. The Christ. The new people’s words. You.

You have God. Next you must use that certainty to find God in the words of those who lovingly pointed you toward Him, which you cannot fail to do as long as you remember your savoring of Him.

If you have God, which you do, and you don’t yet feel “a personal relationship (feeling!)” it is only because you have yet to savor Him as described above.

You can’t STRUGGLE to relax. That is the essence of your problem with “faith”. To relax you must RELAX.

Christians RELAX by becoming more and more humble.

Humility brings faith. Faith let’s us relax and savor the fruit. Savoring the fruit gives us reason to believe in the goodness of the tree. The reality of the tree is our hope, our motiveation, our world.

Humility. Faith. Prayer. Sacrament. Doing as God commands.

But first comes humility, the key.

(PS: I was never religious except in trying to find out what “religion” meant. I was always religious, as I discovered when I found out what religion means, in acting on what I truly believe. When I understood what religion meant, I had to find beliefs which would have me act not evilly, which I found expressed as truths to be believed [dogmas] most fully in the Catholic Church.)

 

[fhansen]

Basically he just accepted the faith out of cold obedience, and then the understanding followed:

Becky, I don’t know if you’ve seen this quote before but I thought you might be interested if you haven’t. I can’t help but love Augustine.

**Seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. **
Saint Augustine

Here’s another SA quote for Figaro that applied to me, at least. No offense intended as it may not be applicable but I’ve learned there’s no end to the extent which humility before God can take us-and there’s no end to the amount of it we need.

It was pride that changed angels into devils; it is humility that makes men as angels.
Saint Augustine

 

[Figaro_Jones]

Thanks, CatsAndDogs, for the further explanation. It does make sense, and you’ve given me some helpful thinkgs to think about. I appreciate it.

 

[beckycmarie]

Becky, I don’t know if you’ve seen this quote before but I thought you might be interested if you haven’t. I can’t help but love Augustine.

**Seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. **
Saint Augustine

fhansen,

I hadn’t heard that quote before - thanks! I really like that quote.

Another of my favorite St. Augustine quotes is,
The Church has spoken; the debate is ended.