'Who am I to judge?': The pope's most powerful phrase in 2013

[McCall1981]

Guys, this is nothing like the '60s. And frankly, one can make a very good argument that the problems the Church faces in the Western world are much worse than in the '60s.

Could you explain what you mean by this?

 

[esieffe]

I like the article and I like what our Holy Father is doing.

He is also invigorating those within the Church to get off their duffs and act like Christians.

For a 77 year old man; that’s a lot of accomplishments in less than a year!

:christmastree1:

 

[esieffe]

Could you explain what you mean by this?

In the 1960s the Catholic Church had a lot of leaves falling from the tree during the “love-in” Metaphysics movement. This happened mainly in the Convents I think. Sisters of the I.H. I believe was the worst victim.

IMHO the US was just starting puberty during the 1960s. There was the hippie movement, VietnamNam, war protests, draft cards being burnt, pot, the civil rights movement. Woodstock, metaphysics, Edgar Cayce, Timothy Leary, and volkswagon busses, and Watergate.

 

[ProVobis]

Guys, this is nothing like the '60s. And frankly, one can make a very good argument that the problems the Church faces in the Western world are much worse than in the '60s.

Maybe but I can’t see rules (Canon Law) and regulations (GIRM, Missale Romanum, etc) being thrown out altogether, can you? I mean even if he does throw all the rules out, who’s to say the next Pope won’t reinstate still harsher rules? Then what? Everyone cries foul and leaves the Church?

 

[Tigg]

I don’t want to pass judgement but I remember similar things being said in the mid 60’s.

Good catch! Of course we have evolved with the passage of time and in our younger rebellion we weren’t yet bold enough to completely throw off the shackles of oppressive religion and demand a “new” church without rules.

 

[Tigg]

What political animals we are! As usual, the lines are divided between conservatives and liberals which equates to the orthodox and non, with each camp emphasizing what they hope the pope means by conveniently only quoting the parts which fit their agenda.

Emphasis mine:

It is unquestionably the fundamental duty of man to orientate his person and his life towards God. But man turns properly to God when he acknowledges His supreme majesty and supreme authority; ***when he accepts divinely revealed truths with a submissive mind; ***when he scrupulously obeys divine law, centering in God his every act and aspiration; when he accords, in short, due worship to the One True God by practicing the virtue of religion.

~Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei~

 

[_Abyssinia]

Most Reverend Salvatore J. Cordileone

While the Church does not judge individuals, the Church does judge actions, for we know that some acts violate human dignity while others make us more truly human according to the image in which God originally made us. With regard to sexual acts, the Church has always faithfully taught, and always will, the teaching she has received from her Lord, namely, that they find their proper order and purpose within the marital union of husband and wife, and outside of the bond of marriage they are sinful. Both natural and revealed law teach us this truth. While everyone struggles with this to some degree, healthy societies encourage and support people to live in accordance with it.

sfarchdiocese.org/about-us/news/2013/Statement-of-Most-Reverend-Salvatore-Cordileone-3764

Cardinal Dolan

“What the pope is saying is, don’t forget there’s another element to God’s teaching, namely that we treat everybody with dignity and respect, that we don’t judge their heart, that we love and respect them,” he told TODAY’s Matt Lauer.

…

“It’s been a pretty clear teaching of the church based on the words of Jesus that we can’t judge people; we can judge actions,” he said.

But he emphasized that those actions — specifically, sexual relationships between gay people — are still considered immoral in the eyes of the Catholic church.

“Homosexual people deserve love respect and dignity, while homosexual acts are immoral,” Dolan said.

“The church’s teaching, which is based on the Bible and God’s revelation, is that sexual love is reserved only between a man and woman in the life-long, life-giving relationship of marriage and any relations outside of that, hetero or homo, would be less than God’s intention," he said. “That hasn’t changed.”

today.com/news/cardinal-dolan-popes-gay-remarks-we-can-judge-actions-not-6C10791364

Disclaiming a right to “judge” others is something that goes back to Jesus. It does not mean a failure to recognize the moral character of others’ actions, however.

One can form a moral appraisal that what someone else is doing is wrong (Jesus obviously does not forbid that) without having or showing malice toward them.

The statement that they should not be marginalized is similarly in keeping with the Holy See’s approach to the subject, as 1986 Vatican document On the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons.

The statement that same-sex attraction “is not the problem,” when understood correctly, is also nothing new. “The problem,” as Pope Francis seems to here be understanding it, is going beyond merely having a sinful tendency–a temptation to which one is subject.
Obviously, temptations are problem, but if we resist temptation we do not sin. “The problem,” on this understanding, is giving into the temptation and sinning or–worse–building an ideology around the sin and trying to advocate the sin.

Finally, the statement that “they’re our brothers” is also no novelty. Christians, like everyone, have struggled with every sort of temptation all through history.

Same-sex attraction is just one temptation among numerous others, and the fact that a person suffers from this temptation no more deprives him of the status of being a brother in Christ than any other temptation does.

ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/7-things-you-need-to-know-about-what-pope-francis-said-about-gays#ixzz2oJGc1p9t

 

[_Abyssinia]

Most Reverend Salvatore J. Cordileone

While the Church does not judge individuals, the Church does judge actions, for we know that some acts violate human dignity while others make us more truly human according to the image in which God originally made us. With regard to sexual acts, the Church has always faithfully taught, and always will, the teaching she has received from her Lord, namely, that they find their proper order and purpose within the marital union of husband and wife, and outside of the bond of marriage they are sinful. Both natural and revealed law teach us this truth. While everyone struggles with this to some degree, healthy societies encourage and support people to live in accordance with it.

sfarchdiocese.org/about-us/news/2013/Statement-of-Most-Reverend-Salvatore-Cordileone-3764

Cardinal Dolan

“What the pope is saying is, don’t forget there’s another element to God’s teaching, namely that we treat everybody with dignity and respect, that we don’t judge their heart, that we love and respect them,” he told TODAY’s Matt Lauer.

…

“It’s been a pretty clear teaching of the church based on the words of Jesus that we can’t judge people; we can judge actions,” he said.

But he emphasized that those actions — specifically, sexual relationships between gay people — are still considered immoral in the eyes of the Catholic church.

“Homosexual people deserve love respect and dignity, while homosexual acts are immoral,” Dolan said.

“The church’s teaching, which is based on the Bible and God’s revelation, is that sexual love is reserved only between a man and woman in the life-long, life-giving relationship of marriage and any relations outside of that, hetero or homo, would be less than God’s intention," he said. “That hasn’t changed.”

today.com/news/cardinal-dolan-popes-gay-remarks-we-can-judge-actions-not-6C10791364

Disclaiming a right to “judge” others is something that goes back to Jesus. It does not mean a failure to recognize the moral character of others’ actions, however.

One can form a moral appraisal that what someone else is doing is wrong (Jesus obviously does not forbid that) without having or showing malice toward them.

The statement that they should not be marginalized is similarly in keeping with the Holy See’s approach to the subject, as 1986 Vatican document On the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons.

The statement that same-sex attraction “is not the problem,” when understood correctly, is also nothing new. “The problem,” as Pope Francis seems to here be understanding it, is going beyond merely having a sinful tendency–a temptation to which one is subject.
Obviously, temptations are problem, but if we resist temptation we do not sin. “The problem,” on this understanding, is giving into the temptation and sinning or–worse–building an ideology around the sin and trying to advocate the sin.

Finally, the statement that “they’re our brothers” is also no novelty. Christians, like everyone, have struggled with every sort of temptation all through history.

Same-sex attraction is just one temptation among numerous others, and the fact that a person suffers from this temptation no more deprives him of the status of being a brother in Christ than any other temptation does.

ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/7-things-you-need-to-know-about-what-pope-francis-said-about-gays#ixzz2oJGc1p9t

 

[_Abyssinia]

Most Reverend Salvatore J. Cordileone

While the Church does not judge individuals, the Church does judge actions, for we know that some acts violate human dignity while others make us more truly human according to the image in which God originally made us. With regard to sexual acts, the Church has always faithfully taught, and always will, the teaching she has received from her Lord, namely, that they find their proper order and purpose within the marital union of husband and wife, and outside of the bond of marriage they are sinful. Both natural and revealed law teach us this truth. While everyone struggles with this to some degree, healthy societies encourage and support people to live in accordance with it.

sfarchdiocese.org/about-us/news/2013/Statement-of-Most-Reverend-Salvatore-Cordileone-3764

Cardinal Dolan

“What the pope is saying is, don’t forget there’s another element to God’s teaching, namely that we treat everybody with dignity and respect, that we don’t judge their heart, that we love and respect them,” he told TODAY’s Matt Lauer.

…

“It’s been a pretty clear teaching of the church based on the words of Jesus that we can’t judge people; we can judge actions,” he said.

But he emphasized that those actions — specifically, sexual relationships between gay people — are still considered immoral in the eyes of the Catholic church.

“Homosexual people deserve love respect and dignity, while homosexual acts are immoral,” Dolan said.

“The church’s teaching, which is based on the Bible and God’s revelation, is that sexual love is reserved only between a man and woman in the life-long, life-giving relationship of marriage and any relations outside of that, hetero or homo, would be less than God’s intention," he said. “That hasn’t changed.”

today.com/news/cardinal-dolan-popes-gay-remarks-we-can-judge-actions-not-6C10791364

Disclaiming a right to “judge” others is something that goes back to Jesus. It does not mean a failure to recognize the moral character of others’ actions, however.

One can form a moral appraisal that what someone else is doing is wrong (Jesus obviously does not forbid that) without having or showing malice toward them.

The statement that they should not be marginalized is similarly in keeping with the Holy See’s approach to the subject, as 1986 Vatican document On the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons.

The statement that same-sex attraction “is not the problem,” when understood correctly, is also nothing new. “The problem,” as Pope Francis seems to here be understanding it, is going beyond merely having a sinful tendency–a temptation to which one is subject.
Obviously, temptations are problem, but if we resist temptation we do not sin. “The problem,” on this understanding, is giving into the temptation and sinning or–worse–building an ideology around the sin and trying to advocate the sin.

Finally, the statement that “they’re our brothers” is also no novelty. Christians, like everyone, have struggled with every sort of temptation all through history.

Same-sex attraction is just one temptation among numerous others, and the fact that a person suffers from this temptation no more deprives him of the status of being a brother in Christ than any other temptation does.

ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/7-things-you-need-to-know-about-what-pope-francis-said-about-gays#ixzz2oJGc1p9t

 

[_Abyssinia]

Most Reverend Salvatore J. Cordileone

While the Church does not judge individuals, the Church does judge actions, for we know that some acts violate human dignity while others make us more truly human according to the image in which God originally made us. With regard to sexual acts, the Church has always faithfully taught, and always will, the teaching she has received from her Lord, namely, that they find their proper order and purpose within the marital union of husband and wife, and outside of the bond of marriage they are sinful. Both natural and revealed law teach us this truth. While everyone struggles with this to some degree, healthy societies encourage and support people to live in accordance with it.

sfarchdiocese.org/about-us/news/2013/Statement-of-Most-Reverend-Salvatore-Cordileone-3764

Cardinal Dolan

“What the pope is saying is, don’t forget there’s another element to God’s teaching, namely that we treat everybody with dignity and respect, that we don’t judge their heart, that we love and respect them,” he told TODAY’s Matt Lauer.

…

“It’s been a pretty clear teaching of the church based on the words of Jesus that we can’t judge people; we can judge actions,” he said.

But he emphasized that those actions — specifically, sexual relationships between gay people — are still considered immoral in the eyes of the Catholic church.

“Homosexual people deserve love respect and dignity, while homosexual acts are immoral,” Dolan said.

“The church’s teaching, which is based on the Bible and God’s revelation, is that sexual love is reserved only between a man and woman in the life-long, life-giving relationship of marriage and any relations outside of that, hetero or homo, would be less than God’s intention," he said. “That hasn’t changed.”

today.com/news/cardinal-dolan-popes-gay-remarks-we-can-judge-actions-not-6C10791364

Disclaiming a right to “judge” others is something that goes back to Jesus. It does not mean a failure to recognize the moral character of others’ actions, however.

One can form a moral appraisal that what someone else is doing is wrong (Jesus obviously does not forbid that) without having or showing malice toward them.

The statement that they should not be marginalized is similarly in keeping with the Holy See’s approach to the subject, as 1986 Vatican document On the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons.

The statement that same-sex attraction “is not the problem,” when understood correctly, is also nothing new. “The problem,” as Pope Francis seems to here be understanding it, is going beyond merely having a sinful tendency–a temptation to which one is subject.
Obviously, temptations are problem, but if we resist temptation we do not sin. “The problem,” on this understanding, is giving into the temptation and sinning or–worse–building an ideology around the sin and trying to advocate the sin.

Finally, the statement that “they’re our brothers” is also no novelty. Christians, like everyone, have struggled with every sort of temptation all through history.

Same-sex attraction is just one temptation among numerous others, and the fact that a person suffers from this temptation no more deprives him of the status of being a brother in Christ than any other temptation does.

ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/7-things-you-need-to-know-about-what-pope-francis-said-about-gays#ixzz2oJGc1p9t

 

[_Abyssinia]

Most Reverend Salvatore J. Cordileone

While the Church does not judge individuals, the Church does judge actions, for we know that some acts violate human dignity while others make us more truly human according to the image in which God originally made us. With regard to sexual acts, the Church has always faithfully taught, and always will, the teaching she has received from her Lord, namely, that they find their proper order and purpose within the marital union of husband and wife, and outside of the bond of marriage they are sinful. Both natural and revealed law teach us this truth. While everyone struggles with this to some degree, healthy societies encourage and support people to live in accordance with it.

sfarchdiocese.org/about-us/news/2013/Statement-of-Most-Reverend-Salvatore-Cordileone-3764

Cardinal Dolan

“What the pope is saying is, don’t forget there’s another element to God’s teaching, namely that we treat everybody with dignity and respect, that we don’t judge their heart, that we love and respect them,” he told TODAY’s Matt Lauer.

…

“It’s been a pretty clear teaching of the church based on the words of Jesus that we can’t judge people; we can judge actions,” he said.

But he emphasized that those actions — specifically, sexual relationships between gay people — are still considered immoral in the eyes of the Catholic church.

“Homosexual people deserve love respect and dignity, while homosexual acts are immoral,” Dolan said.

“The church’s teaching, which is based on the Bible and God’s revelation, is that sexual love is reserved only between a man and woman in the life-long, life-giving relationship of marriage and any relations outside of that, hetero or homo, would be less than God’s intention," he said. “That hasn’t changed.”

today.com/news/cardinal-dolan-popes-gay-remarks-we-can-judge-actions-not-6C10791364

Disclaiming a right to “judge” others is something that goes back to Jesus. It does not mean a failure to recognize the moral character of others’ actions, however.

One can form a moral appraisal that what someone else is doing is wrong (Jesus obviously does not forbid that) without having or showing malice toward them.

The statement that they should not be marginalized is similarly in keeping with the Holy See’s approach to the subject, as 1986 Vatican document On the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons.

The statement that same-sex attraction “is not the problem,” when understood correctly, is also nothing new. “The problem,” as Pope Francis seems to here be understanding it, is going beyond merely having a sinful tendency–a temptation to which one is subject.
Obviously, temptations are problem, but if we resist temptation we do not sin. “The problem,” on this understanding, is giving into the temptation and sinning or–worse–building an ideology around the sin and trying to advocate the sin.

Finally, the statement that “they’re our brothers” is also no novelty. Christians, like everyone, have struggled with every sort of temptation all through history.

Same-sex attraction is just one temptation among numerous others, and the fact that a person suffers from this temptation no more deprives him of the status of being a brother in Christ than any other temptation does.

ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/7-things-you-need-to-know-about-what-pope-francis-said-about-gays

 

[clem456]

Perhaps the reason there’s so much confusion around this statement is that people focus on the words “to judge” and not on the words “who am I”.
This is a fundamental question for us to answer. God tells us who he is, but do we listen to his Word, and do we know ourselves in His light?

To begin with we are

1. Not God
2. human sinners

 

[estesbob]

Unfortunately for the MM no matter how they parse his words they will soon find out the Pope is indeed catholic.

 

[NiceanParadox]

The Holy Father’s full quote was “If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?”

The press was quick to latch on to the “who am I to judge?” part but seem to have missed the “searches for the Lord” part.

Francis did not imply that the Church is going to lighten up on gay marriage and such. Following the teachings of Christ would certainly preclude homosexuality.

My :twocents:

Christ had teachings precluding homosexuality?

searches Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John

Where, exactly?

 

[Nacho45]

Perhaps the reason there’s so much confusion around this statement is that people focus on the words “to judge” and not on the words “who am I”.
This is a fundamental question for us to answer. God tells us who he is, but do we listen to his Word, and do we know ourselves in His light?

To begin with we are

1. Not God
2. human sinners

Another problem is people do not look at the Popes entire statement, rather they cherry pick bits and pieces they can warp and manipulate. Just today I was reading a news website which talked about how “new” and “great” Pope Francis was and how he was taking the Church in a new/different direction.

Imagine their surprise when they realize they are wrong.

 

[Nacho45]

Christ had teachings precluding homosexuality?

searches Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John

Where, exactly?

This disingenuous approach frustrates me very much. One could easily ask this style of question about a lot of things. For instance, if I spend hours speaking at a conference on the proper use of prescribed medicines, the extremely limited use of what are commonly viewed as recreational drugs (i.e., controlled substances) and the dangers of their misuse, but I never say I oppose recreational drug use or that it is outright wrong and should be illegal, some people would falsely conclude (for their benefit) I have no problem with recreational drug use because I didn’t specifically say it was wrong.

Whenever Jesus spoke of marriage, it was only within the context that the Church defines marriage. Sexual relations had already been clarified and Jesus made no alterations. He maintained what was right and wrong. And when considering Jesus is God and God instructed those in the Old Testament, Jesus already clarified His views on the matter.

 

[estesbob]

Christ had teachings precluding homosexuality?

searches Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John

Where, exactly?

If one believes Scripture I’ve the inspired word of God then something written be Paul or in the OT carries just as much authority as something said by Jesus. If one doesn’t believe Scripture is the inspired word of God then out doesn’t matter in the least who said what.

 

[ProVobis]

If one believes Scripture I’ve the inspired word of God then something written be Paul or in the OT carries just as much authority as something said by Jesus.

I think these are included in what’s called the Deposit of Faith.

 

[novusCatholic]

Pope Francis has said that he is a “son of the Church” and wrote the following in his Apostolic Exhortation EVANGELII GAUDIUM (bolding is mine):

1. This is not the time or the place to examine in detail the many grave social questions affecting today’s world, some of which I have dealt with in the second chapter. This Exhortation is not a social document, and for reflection on those different themes we have a most suitable tool in the Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church, whose use and study I heartily recommend.

When we refer to the Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church, which was written by Pope John Paul II, we read the following (bolding is mine):

1. De facto unions, the number of which is progressively increasing, are based on a false conception of an individual’s freedom to choose [501] and on a completely privatistic vision of marriage and family. Marriage is not a simple agreement to live together but a relationship with a social dimension that is unique with regard to all other relationships, since the family — attending as it does to caring for and educating children — is the principal instrument for making each person grow in an integral manner and integrating him positively into social life.

Making “de facto unions” legally equivalent to the family would discredit the model of the family, which cannot be brought about in a precarious relationship between persons [502] but only in a permanent union originating in marriage, that is, in a covenant between one man and one women, founded on the mutual and free choice that entails full conjugal communion oriented towards procreation.

1. Connected with de facto unions is the particular problem concerning demands for the legal recognition of unions between homosexual persons, which is increasingly the topic of public debate. Only an anthropology corresponding to the full truth of the human person can give an appropriate response to this problem with its different aspects on both the societal and ecclesial levels[503]. The light of such anthropology reveals “how incongruous is the demand to accord ‘marital’ status to unions between persons of the same sex. It is opposed, first of all, by the objective impossibility of making the partnership fruitful through the transmission of life according to the plan inscribed by God in the very structure of the human being. Another obstacle is the absence of the conditions for that interpersonal complementarity between male and female willed by the Creator at both the physical-biological and the eminently psychological levels. It is only in the union of two sexually different persons that the individual can achieve perfection in a synthesis of unity and mutual psychophysical completion”[504].

Homosexual persons are to be fully respected in their human dignity [505] and encouraged to follow God’s plan with particular attention in the exercise of chastity[506]. This duty calling for respect does not justify the legitimization of behaviour that is not consistent with moral law, even less does it justify the recognition of a right to marriage between persons of the same sex and its being considered equivalent to the family[507].

“If, from the legal standpoint, marriage between a man and a woman were to be considered just one possible form of marriage, the concept of marriage would undergo a radical transformation, with grave detriment to the common good. By putting homosexual unions on a legal plane analogous to that of marriage and the family, the State acts arbitrarily and in contradiction with its duties”[508].

 

[JourneyForTruth]

Everyone is missing the point here…of course the pope is asking all good Christians to judge, just not whether their going to heaven or hell, only God can have that judgement. Here on earth the gospel calls us to judge others actions not the person.

See Catholic Answers on judging others.

Jesus then explains how to judge rightly: “First take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.” Much to the point of this article, there can be no doubt that those final words—“take the speck out of your brother’s eye”—are, indeed, permission to judge so long as it is done rightly.

Other Bible passages which seem on the surface to indicate a condemnation of judging others’ behavior may be treated similarly in their full context. The idea of rightly judging the behavior of others can be found throughout the New Testament.

Jesus told the Jews, “Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment” (John 7:24).
catholic.com/magazine/articles/judge-not