Who are the 144,000?

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Nelka said:
So what is the difference between their idea of Heaven and their idea of the happiness on earth? Sounds similar?

Why don’t JW’s get jealous that they want to ascend from earthly happiness to Heaven?
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It seems that they have never studied Church History, and what the Catholic Church truly teaches.

It never ceases to astound me how people can so easily be led into false teaching.

It causes me all the more to thank the Lord for the gift of faith in His Church, and the God-given authority that the Church has, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit in its doctrines and moral teachings.

Lord help us all to grow in faith, hope, and love!
 
Dorothy said:
Correct! It is the number twelve squared.

Sadly, the Jehovah’s Witnesses are quite confused and need our prayers. There are many other errors in their thinking as well. They work hard to bring Catholics away from the faith.

They need our prayers.
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Besides prayers…a good lesson on theology and some church history.
 
ajcstr said:
As Catholics, we view the 144,000 as a symbolic number as we do the 1,000 reign of Christ. JW take both literally. The JW leaders in the 30’s declared that the 144,000 was complete for those baptized prior to 1935 I believe, so current JW’s can only aspire to be part of the “great crowd” on Earth.

catholic.com/quickquestions/what-is-the-significance-of-the-number-144000-to-jehovahs-witnesses
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I was told by a JW, years ago that the 144,000 would never die and will be taken up at the end. Now if anyone knows of a JW that was born at the beginning of JW’s and is still alive at least about 150 years. let me know. or let the scientists know. Don’t think they are even supposed to grow old. God Bless, Memaw
 
Memaw said:
I was told by a JW, years ago that the 144,000 would never die and will be taken up at the end. Now if anyone knows of a JW that was born at the beginning of JW’s and is still alive at least about 150 years. let me know. or let the scientists know. Don’t think they are even supposed to grow old. God Bless, Memaw
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Well, I guess there are JW’s that don’t know their faith. This is mixing beliefs. The great multitude on earth supposedly won’t grow old and may actually get younger. There are not too many of the 144,000 alive today. I mean I think the 144,000 includes Peter, Paul and Mary (not the musical group, though maybe them too - the JW’s must be peeking at the Mormon’s ancestry records to know who they all are).
 
SAVINGRACE said:
Who does this refer to in Scripture?

Jehovah’s Witness knocked on my door an hour ago. They kept referring to this number of people are the only ones entering Heaven. Had no idea what they were on about.

Any ideas?

Thank you.
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Hi Savingrace.

May I explain who the witnesses understand the 144,000 are, and why they believe this? Then you can weigh it up and decide whether it makes sense or is off the mark. 😉

The 144,000 are mentioned firstly in Revelation 7:1-8. Where they are described as “sealed” with the seal of God, and are 12,000 from 12 tribes of Israel (=144,000)
Again the 144,000 are mentioned at Rev 14:1,4 Where they are seen standing alongside “the Lamb” (Jesus)on Mount Zion and are described as “virgins brought from mankind” as “firstfruits” by God and the Lamb.

Lots of clues here! 👍

Firstly, while many consider 144,000 to be a symbolic number, Jehovah’s Witness’ believe it is literal.

The book of revelation is full of symbolic language, but the reason they believe the number is literal is because straight after the 144,000 being introduced in Chapter 7:1-8, a “great crowd who no man can number” is also introduced in verse 9.
Logically, a specific number, followed by an indefinite number means one is specific.
(if I told you my watch cost “$82.50,” and my car cost “alot of money” you can tell which amount is exact)

Verses 4-8 list the tribes of Israel. Is this a reference to literal, fleshly Israel?

Well Jesus told the Jewish religious leaders: “The kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits.” (Matthew 21:43)
Also, Revelation 7:4-8 diverges from the usual tribal listing. (Numbers 1:17, 47)

Logically, the listing here is not for the purpose of identifying fleshly Jews by their tribes but to show a similar organizational structure for “spiritual Israel.”

At Galatians 6:16, after confirming the law of ancient Israel ws no longer in affect, Paul calls these Christians “the Israel of God”. Israel was the original chosen nation of God. What a logical symbolic description of this new nation Jesus prophesied! 👍

So are all Christians in the 144,000?
That’s not many places for the hundreds of millions of sincere followers of Christ that have walked the earth!:confused:

Well in Revelation 20:4, we read of followers of Christ, coming back to life and being given the role of “Kings and priests with Christ”.
Jesus promised his faithful apostles a role as kings in his kingdom, also at Luke 12:32 he said: “Have no fear, little flock, for your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom.” and Paul and others in the first century mention their hope of ruling as Kings in the kingdom.

Of course not everyone in a Kingdom can be a king! They need subjects. So this “little flock” is a comparably small number of Chrisitnas who are chosen for this kingly role.
The faithful apostles and numerous ones chosen by God in the first century were clearly of this “little flock”. 👍

JW’s understand this chosen group of rulers are the 144,000 in Revelation.
That is why they are called “first fruits” – a reference to be the choicest or prime of a harvest. (And being called “virgins” would also be symbolic of holy, clean and undefiled.)

This seems to add up with where Jesus says in John 10:16 “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those too I must bring in…” So another class besides the ruling “little flock”.
As we see in Revelation 7, besides this specific “144,000” is an un numbered “great crowd”. It all seems to fit together like a jigsaw. 👍

So in summary, -
Jehovah’s Witnesses believe the 144,000 are selected Christians who God and Jesus have chosen to rule in heaven as part of the new Kingdom government we pray for. They will rule over all other true Christians.

Does that make sense or have I confused things wonderfully! 😃

I look forward to any comments. All the best.

Logically
 
Logically said:
Hi Savingrace.

May I explain who the witnesses understand the 144,000 are, and why they believe this? Then you can weigh it up and decide whether it makes sense or is off the mark. 😉

The 144,000 are mentioned firstly in Revelation 7:1-8. Where they are described as “sealed” with the seal of God, and are 12,000 from 12 tribes of Israel (=144,000)
Again the 144,000 are mentioned at Rev 14:1,4 Where they are seen standing alongside “the Lamb” (Jesus)on Mount Zion and are described as “virgins brought from mankind” as “firstfruits” by God and the Lamb.

Lots of clues here! 👍

Firstly, while many consider 144,000 to be a symbolic number, Jehovah’s Witness’ believe it is literal.

The book of revelation is full of symbolic language, but the reason they believe the number is literal is because straight after the 144,000 being introduced in Chapter 7:1-8, a “great crowd who no man can number” is also introduced in verse 9.
Logically, a specific number, followed by an indefinite number means one is specific.
(if I told you my watch cost “$82.50,” and my car cost “alot of money” you can tell which amount is exact)

Verses 4-8 list the tribes of Israel. Is this a reference to literal, fleshly Israel?

Well Jesus told the Jewish religious leaders: “The kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits.” (Matthew 21:43)
Also, Revelation 7:4-8 diverges from the usual tribal listing. (Numbers 1:17, 47)

Logically, the listing here is not for the purpose of identifying fleshly Jews by their tribes but to show a similar organizational structure for “spiritual Israel.”

At Galatians 6:16, after confirming the law of ancient Israel ws no longer in affect, Paul calls these Christians “the Israel of God”. Israel was the original chosen nation of God. What a logical symbolic description of this new nation Jesus prophesied! 👍

So are all Christians in the 144,000?
That’s not many places for the hundreds of millions of sincere followers of Christ that have walked the earth!:confused:

Well in Revelation 20:4, we read of followers of Christ, coming back to life and being given the role of “Kings and priests with Christ”.
Jesus promised his faithful apostles a role as kings in his kingdom, also at Luke 12:32 he said: “Have no fear, little flock, for your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom.” and Paul and others in the first century mention their hope of ruling as Kings in the kingdom.

Of course not everyone in a Kingdom can be a king! They need subjects. So this “little flock” is a comparably small number of Chrisitnas who are chosen for this kingly role.
The faithful apostles and numerous ones chosen by God in the first century were clearly of this “little flock”. 👍

JW’s understand this chosen group of rulers are the 144,000 in Revelation.
That is why they are called “first fruits” – a reference to be the choicest or prime of a harvest. (And being called “virgins” would also be symbolic of holy, clean and undefiled.)

This seems to add up with where Jesus says in John 10:16 “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those too I must bring in…” So another class besides the ruling “little flock”.
As we see in Revelation 7, besides this specific “144,000” is an un numbered “great crowd”. It all seems to fit together like a jigsaw. 👍

So in summary, -
Jehovah’s Witnesses believe the 144,000 are selected Christians who God and Jesus have chosen to rule in heaven as part of the new Kingdom government we pray for. They will rule over all other true Christians.

Does that make sense or have I confused things wonderfully! 😃

I look forward to any comments. All the best.

Logically
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Thank you Logically for your JW interpretation of the 144,000.

I hope all that view this interpretation understand it for just that, an interpretation and begin to see how easy it is for anyone to distort the original intent of the Holy Scriptures. The Scriptures have only one intent, one truth, one author. Anyone reading this or any interpretation should first ask themselves “who has to authority to properly interpret Scripture?”

Peace!!!
 
Logically said:
Logically, a specific number, followed by an indefinite number means one is specific.

Logically, the listing here is not for the purpose of identifying fleshly Jews by their tribes but to show a similar organizational structure for “spiritual Israel.”

What a logical symbolic description of this new nation Jesus prophesied!

Logically
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Sorry, but your logic escapes me.

Sounds more like “stringing pearls” to me.

But I DO thank you for taking the time to post and present your argument that we may understand how you reason your position.
 
adf417 said:
Thank you Logically for your JW interpretation of the 144,000.

I hope all that view this interpretation understand it for just that, an interpretation and begin to see how easy it is for anyone to distort the original intent of the Holy Scriptures. The Scriptures have only one intent, one truth, one author. Anyone reading this or any interpretation should first ask themselves “who has to authority to properly interpret Scripture?”

Peace!!!
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You are absolutely right.

I tried to make it clear in my opening paragraph that this is simply what JW’s believe, and why.
Jehovah’s witnesses are well aware interpretation of the scriptures is only by God’s grace. He will reveal it in his good time to those he wants to.

Perhaps they are onto something with their understanding of the 144,000, or perhaps they have read too much into how these scriptures all relate and are quite wrong.

Either way, I believe God will reveal it according to his timetable. 🙂

“As for you Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end. Many will rove about and the true knowledge will become abundant.”(Daniel 12:4)
 
The current understanding of the Jehovah’s Witnesses is in fact changing. It has been the subject of several meetings of the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses, and it may well change to something similar to what the rest of Christianity believes–that this number is symbolic.

Originally the Jehovah’s Witnesses believed that God had called the “remnant” of the 144,000 by the late 1800s, and they all expected to go to heaven around October of 1914.

But when that time came and went they felt that perhaps they had been mistaken to believe God had ended the heavenly call and that perhaps there were still more of the 144,000 to be gathered.

By the 1920s their numbers had increased to well over 144,000. According to their doctrine, the first century Christians were among the 144,000 and all that remained in modern times was a “remnant” of that number. In 1935 the Witnesses adopted a view similar to what the Catechism of the Catholic Church mentions beginning at section 1042, “The Hope of the New Heaven and the New Earth.” The Witnesses claimed that the relatively new ones among them were being added to them because they were now calling those who would live in the “new earth.”

Their theology from this point was that the “remnant” was the “faithful and discreet slave” class of Matthew 24:45, and they were the “teaching group” through whom God worked to call and teach this new group of people who would have the hope of living forever in a paradise on earth.

Their theology also included the following: the number of the “remnant” would decrease as the years leading to the end of the world went by. This was taught to be proof that they were living in the final generation that was to see Armageddon.

By the late 1980s the number of the “faithful and discreet slave” class/“remnant” was around 8800. But something happened: the number began to increase. As of last year almost 5000 new people had been included in this number of the “remnant,” and there has been a steady increase of those claiming to be of the 144,000 among them each and every year.

Recently the Governing Body has declared the following:
  • That the belief that God stopped calling people to the heavenly hope in 1935 was incorrect.
  • That members of the “remnant” were not the “faithful and discreet slave” of Matthew 24:45 and thereby were never used as a teaching class or had such authority (even though the Witnesses believed this for about 100 years).
  • That the Governing Body was now the only ones who could be rightly considered as the “faithful and discreet slave.”
  • That relatively new claimants to the heavenly hope may have emotional problems, difficulties with pride, or can’t let go of previously-held religious ideas, and this may account for why the number has increased over the years.
The Governing Body’s recent change regarding the identity of the “faithful slave” and their reversal on the 1935 “close-off” date for adding any more to the 144,000 may be the first of future changes to come. The doctrine has been under discussion for some years now, and allegedly changes to the doctrine have been delayed due to the fact that the Governing Body votes on whether or not to agree to a new doctrine. All doctrinal changes require a 2/3 vote among the group, and some in the group are not yet willing to side with those pushing for change.

If there are no changes soon, the increasing numbers of the remnant will no longer be able to be used as “proof” that they are in the last days. Being that there were approximately 90,000+ Witnesses who once claimed to be of the 144,000 over the past century, any continued increases will make it impossible for any of the first century Christians to be included (the remnant is now up from 8800 to over 13,000).

Either the Witnesses will have to change who they include in the group now or stop considering the number to be literal.
 
I have always understood it to mean: The 12 Tribes of Israel = The old covenant X The Preaching work of the 12 Apostles = The Church or new covenant X 1000 = bought to perfection.
I.e the full revelation of God bought to perfection.
 
I took a few hours to do some calculating. If the number is literal, as the Witnesses say, we are left with the following:

According to statistics there were 106,137 claimants of the 144,000 in 1925.

The number decreased until there was an increase to partakers of approximately 5000 between 1940 and 1945.

The number generally decreased yearly again until after 1990 when it again increased by about 5000.

So while it’s a rough estimate, according to Yearbooks of the Jehovah’s Witnesses and several other Watchtower publications going back to 1919, there have been around 116, 137 individuals who have claimed to be of the 144,000 among the Jehovah’s Witnesses from 1919 until today.

The JW theology teaches that the number of 144,000 also includes the apostles, other first century Christians, and a few faithful Christians throughout the centuries until the time of Charles Taze Russell and his work to call the “remnant” together. That means there were only 27, 863 true Christians from the 1st century until the time of Russell (because only true Christians would have the heavenly hope). The millions of other claimants to faith in Christ, according to this literal count, would be counterfeit.
 
DelsonJacobs said:
I took a few hours to do some calculating. …

So while it’s a rough estimate, according to Yearbooks of the Jehovah’s Witnesses and several other Watchtower publications going back to 1919, there have been around 116, 137 individuals who have claimed to be of the 144,000 among the Jehovah’s Witnesses from 1919 until today.

The JW theology teaches that the number of 144,000 also includes the apostles, other first century Christians, and a few faithful Christians throughout the centuries until the time of Charles Taze Russell … The millions of other claimants to faith in Christ, according to this literal count, would be counterfeit.
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Delson my old rival! Did you follow me? I only posted a day ago. 😃

I’m sure your calculations are quite correct.
Except the yearbooks do not count “the number remaining of the 144,000” they simply mention “memorial partakers worldwide”

These JW’s believe they are of the 144,000.

So it is quite possible many of these partakers are mistaken in their belief. I myself know personally two who partake at the memorial, (and while I won’t go into details, one is clearly mistaken and I strongly suspect the other is also.)
You used the word “counterfeit” – perhaps “mistaken” would be kinder. 😉

When the difference between the “144,000” and the “great crowd” was explained at an convention in the 1930,s, the speaker then asked: “will all those of the great multitiude please stand!” Immediately half of the audience stood up and showed they humbly acknowledged they were not of that kingly class!
(perhaps many more did so before the next memorial)

Remember Revelation 7:3 shows these ones are chosen by God.
So apart from the ones the Bible says were to rule with Christ, we humans cannot say: “These ones are but these are not.”

God chooses who are to rule with Jesus in his kingdom.

Perhaps they have averaged 8,000 a century since Jesus was on earth, but I would assume there would be a greater number when the congregation began and again in the last days of this system when the congregation faces it’s greatest test. 🤷
I’m not using a figure of speech when I say: “God knows.” 😉

However, as one who understands alot about the JW’s understanding, do you agree with their general understanding of their identity?
A specific number of people chosen from earth to rule with Christ in his kingdom?
 
Logically said:
However, as one who understands alot about the JW’s understanding, do you agree with their general understanding of their identity?
A specific number of people chosen from earth to rule with Christ in his kingdom?
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While I don’t agree with the current understanding of the Witnesses, that the number is literal, I do agree that the number represents humans who are to inherit the heavenly kingdom.

In line with the Catholic understanding, I believe that the 144,000 is likely the same as the “great multitude.” And there are similarities between our two theologies:

    • The 144,000 is believed to be contrasted with the “great multitude, which no one could count.”–Revelation 7:4, 9.
    • The contrast is between two visions: one where the 12 “tribes” of Israel are counted as 144,000 and the great multitude is made up of “every nation, race, people, and tongue.”
    The only difference is that Catholic theology believes the two groups are the same, just mentioned differently in two side-by-side visions. The 144,000 is the same as the great multitude. They are both spiritual Israel, consisting of Jews and Gentiles, but in the first vision they are represented by twelve tribes of Israel and in the second they are referred to as all the nations.

    They key is that the 12 tribes of the first vision are not the actual listings of tribes: there was no tribe of Joseph and the tribe of Dan is missing, and Levi was not one of the 12 tribes. If there number 144,000 is literal then the tribes would have to be literal, but they cannot be since Levi was never counted in the census of the 12 tribes and the tribe of Joseph never existed. So the Catholic teaching is that the number 144,000 cannot for equal reasons be literal.

    My contacts from within the headquarters have reported that the Governing Body has been preparing the Witnesses for a major change that may eventually lead you to accept a teaching similar to these lines. Allegedly some of the new information about this will be announced at this summer’s conventions, or at least that is what the current set of votes in the Governing Body has been reported to be leaning towards.

    There is concern that immediate change may shake the Witnesses and cause an upset as was seen with the Worldwide Church of God (WCG) when Armstrong passed and they dismissed his teaching (many left and a plethora of splinter groups came forth afterwards). So the changes have been subtle up till now:
    • The “generation” that will not pass away is made up of a set of relatively “new” anointed ones that “crossed paths” (so to speak) with the relatively “older” anointed
    • The 1935 “cut-off” date for the heavenly calling was abandoned
    • The anointed no longer make up the “faithful and discreet slave” class (in fact that “class” no longer exists)
    I am not sure if the changes will be employed quickly or exactly what they will be (or that they will match ours), but the Governing Body will eventually phase out what you currently believe over the next few years. Two main possibilities have been discussed: 1) that all Witnesses are in the New Covenant, and thus all are anointed and 2) the 144,000 is a symbolic number representing those who are currently appointed to positions of oversight over others (and these are the only ones who will gain heavenly life, but their number is not limited).
 
Oh, and Logically, I don’t want you to get the idea that I am trying to debate you. I just added my two cents as I specialize in the subject, as you know.

And I also don’t want people to get the idea that any changes the Governing Body may be planning are set in stone either. They have been struggling to make sense of things in the face of great challenges.

I don’t mean this in the wrong way, either, but I was one of the children to whom they said:

If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things. Why not? Because all the evidence in fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that this corrupt system is due to end in a few years… Therefore, as a young person, you will never fulfill any career that this system offers. If you are in high school and thinking about a college education, it means at least four, perhaps even six or eight more years to graduate into a specialized career. But where will this system of things be by that time? It will be well on the way toward its finish, if not actually gone!–Awake! May 22, 1966, p.15.

Of course I did grow up. I have gone through high school and college and have had a very successful career. And the men who told me this would likely never happen all died, even though they believed and preached that they likely never would see death.

They clearly did not expect to be here 100 years after 1914, nor did they expect the recent increase among partakers claiming to be of the anointed. There are answers to all of this, and I believe that if they follow the leadings of God’s Spirit the Governing Body will find them. Regardless…

My prayer is that the Governing Body will be guided by God to make sense of all things. Regardless of our differences in belief, faith in the God of the Bible is under attack. I hope we can find ways of working together instead of seeing one another as on opposite sides., not just you and me, but Jehovah’s Witnesses and all Christians.
 
DelsonJacobs said:
…
My contacts from within the headquarters have reported that the Governing Body has been preparing the Witnesses for a major change…
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Wow. That kinda sounds like something out of a spy thriller.
(Did you ever see “the sum of all fears” where the CIA director had a contact in the Kremlin who passed him info)

I wish I could mention “my contacts in the Vatican have reported to me the Pope is preparing to do this or that.” 😉

Why do they “report” to you? Are they quite high up in the organisation? (Surely not of the governing body themselves.) But you talk as if they know what the governing body is up to. :confused:

or am I not cleared for this information. 😃
 
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