Who are the deserving poor?

[vern_humphrey]

The deserving poor are the people who no fault of their own become sick, laid-off, injured in an accident, victim of a crime or natural disaster or such.
They are NOT the folks who make government hand-outs a way of life.
The are however people who think “the government will take care of me they have to, I got pregnant so the tax payer need to care for me, especially Christians, otherwise if they don’t then they are liars about being prolife” HOGWASH! I, like most Catholics, am pro-life, but I am not pro-promiscuity, one needs to control ones urges when you do not have the means to raise a child.

There is such a thing as an “enabeler” – a person who makes it possible for another person to be a drunk, drug addict, and so on. Years ago, we thought the kind and Christian thing to do was take on some of your co-worker’s load when he was hung over or strung out, to make excuses for him, to cover for him…

We finally realized how cruel that was – because it let him sink deeper into his habit.

We need to remember that Social Justice is more than mere charity – Social Justice means doing away with the conditions that cause poverty and suffering.

We have inflicted an excess of charity on the poor, and become enablers in the process – but I challenge anyone here to name a true Social Justice effort that we have made.

 

[Trader]

We have inflicted an excess of charity on the poor, and become enablers in the process – but I challenge anyone here to name a true Social Justice effort that we have made.

I agree with you in general, but I have to disagree just a little to maintain my independence.

What you call excess charity is not really charity at all. It is more like a bribe. “I will pay for public housing if it keeps you out of my neighborhood.” That is not totally unreasonable. If you bring your drug dealers, pimps, violence, and disease with you, I would prefer you go somewhere else, anywhere else.

Real charity also requires that the recipient acknowledges the obligation to change and that there be consequences for not making progress. A former US senator from Illinois once called a modest proposal communistic. It was proposal that able bodied people living in public housing would be required to do some of the maintenance in their own homes. It was about things like mowing the lawn and washing the windows.

I would like to see most aid programs to be in the form of loans. It would remove some of the entitlement mentality and recognize that the recipient also had an obligation to others. It should be a teaching experience rather than just a taking experience.

The closest I could come for true Social Justice effort that worked would be the GI Bill that made it possible for so many veterans to attend college and better themselves. It was not charity, it was part of their compensation for their service to the country.

Then people compained that those who had not provided that service should get the same aid, and so on. That was one of the principle reasons the cost of college education skyrocketed so that now few can afford college without some kind of aid.

 

[kim3260]

There is such a thing as an “enabeler” – a person who makes it possible for another person to be a drunk, drug addict, and so on. Years ago, we thought the kind and Christian thing to do was take on some of your co-worker’s load when he was hung over or strung out, to make excuses for him, to cover for him…

We finally realized how cruel that was – because it let him sink deeper into his habit.

We need to remember that Social Justice is more than mere charity – Social Justice means doing away with the conditions that cause poverty and suffering.

We have inflicted an excess of charity on the poor, and become enablers in the process – but I challenge anyone here to name a true Social Justice effort that we have made.

Truly and honestly NONE. We have created several generations of people dependent on government aide and it will take a major overhaul to return to the ideal of “God helps those who helps themselves” or “hard work never hurt anyone”
Government aide should be an “extreme need only” such as I stated in my above post. It should end in 6 months. That IMO is enough time to find another job (even if one must take 2 low paying jobs)
Another point, should be, if a woman unmarried, no family help and can’t afford her kiddies, adoption it is the most loving thing she can do for her child. This alone will get rid of 90 percent of the problem. watch the birthrate drop for out of wedlocks

 

[jman507]

the “how should health care work” thread has evolved into a debate about who among the poor is deserving of our help. it seems like that ought to be its own thread, so here we go!

who deserves assistance from the community, either through government or charities?

single mothers?
minimum wage workers?
minimum wage workers with large families? (it’s also been proposed that these folks don’t exist)
disabled?
elderly?
drunks?
gamblers?
mentally ill?
and what about the children of all these folks?

and what kind of assistance do they deserve?

cash?
food?
health care?
child care?
housing?
job training?
education?

as for myself, i like dorothy day’s quote: “I firmly believe that our salvation depends on the poor.”

discuss!

In my opinion I object that this is the proper way to frame the issue. Who is deserving? Deserving of what? Charity is not such a one dimensional thing as money and “education.” The some of the very best charity is what good parents can give their children.

There are some people who will not be able to take care of normal activities and planning of day to day living, they do need help. There are others who can, and need someone to teach them how, but not only that to believe in them, and try to make them do it. That is also help, but that is a different kind of help. Others yet are in a short term bad situation; they need another kind of help.

As I believe Man was saying the poor need their dignity. For some of the poor, that probably does mean constant care. For some of the other poor dignity might actually mean, not giving them a hand out of money, but of helping them out of their situation.

In the end, if you want to help people out, but neglect to show those who are able to be more productive to be more productive, then eventually, the whole system is going to end up collapsing on itself sooner than later. What are their children going to learn from them? How to make a living by negotiating where the next hand-out is or what it takes to be productive?

If you ask me what is more dignified it is to try to help those able to be able.

 

[vern_humphrey]

What you call excess charity is not really charity at all. It is more like a bribe. “I will pay for public housing if it keeps you out of my neighborhood.” That is not totally unreasonable. If you bring your drug dealers, pimps, violence, and disease with you, I would prefer you go somewhere else, anywhere else.

That is sadly true – we fought a War on Poverty because we were scared of the riots of the 60s and 70s. And Poverty won that war.

Real charity also requires that the recipient acknowledges the obligation to change and that there be consequences for not making progress. A former US senator from Illinois once called a modest proposal communistic. It was proposal that able bodied people living in public housing would be required to do some of the maintenance in their own homes. It was about things like mowing the lawn and washing the windows.

I wonder what he’d have said about my idea that parents on welfare should come to school with their children and help them learn?

I would like to see most aid programs to be in the form of loans. It would remove some of the entitlement mentality and recognize that the recipient also had an obligation to others. It should be a teaching experience rather than just a taking experience.

The closest I could come for true Social Justice effort that worked would be the GI Bill that made it possible for so many veterans to attend college and better themselves. It was not charity, it was part of their compensation for their service to the country.

The GI Bill was a great program – and had a great advantage – it was for people who earned it.

Then people compained that those who had not provided that service should get the same aid, and so on. That was one of the principle reasons the cost of college education skyrocketed so that now few can afford college without some kind of aid.

The entitlement idea has done incalculable damate to this country.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Truly and honestly NONE. We have created several generations of people dependent on government aide

Yes, we have – that is a grevious sin on our part. We have becoe enablers, encouraging more and more people to make welfare a way of life.

and it will take a major overhaul to return to the ideal of “God helps those who helps themselves” or “hard work never hurt anyone”

Indeed it will – yet look at those well-meaning people who reject any attempts to fix the system.

Government aide should be an “extreme need only” such as I stated in my above post. It should end in 6 months. That IMO is enough time to find another job (even if one must take 2 low paying jobs)

And if more help is needed, the recipient should work for it. If nothing else, parents on extended welfare should go to school with their children. Some will help kids, some will be in class themseves learning basic skills, some will care for younger children while other parents are doing their thing.

And those who don’t show up, don’t get paid.

Another point, should be, if a woman unmarried, no family help and can’t afford her kiddies, adoption it is the most loving thing she can do for her child. This alone will get rid of 90 percent of the problem. watch the birthrate drop for out of wedlocks

Every now and then we read a story of some children found eating dogfood while their parents use the welfare check to buy drugs – those children are being abused by us! We have to accept responsibility for creating the system that allowed this to happen.

 

[Man]

…

I raised 5 children on less then $30,000 and did not recieve government handouts. Cruel is me taking on a second job, because of rising inflation and taxes, taking away from my family so they can continue in their lifestyles.

I hear this comment all the time, but I remind people that $30,000 (30 years ago) is now only worth about $15,000.

 

[Man]

…

Then people compained that those who had not provided that service should get the same aid, and so on. That was one of the principle reasons the cost of college education skyrocketed so that now few can afford college without some kind of aid.

What did you say?; the system now charges the rich more money to go to school on both ends.

 

[emily47017]

HOGWASH!

part of what you’re missing here is that the pregnancy itself can sink a family deeper into poverty – she’ll have to take some time off school or work (no sick leave? fired.), she may not have health insurance (more complicated/dangerous pregnancy, lower birth weight, higher infant mortality), etc.

we oppose abortion regardless of the circumstances of conception. why don’t we support pregnant women in any choice they make except abortion regardless of the circumstances of conception? that’s what the pro-choice movement is calling you on.

the more a woman feels boxed in, the more likely she is to choose abortion. if we truly want to save every one of those souls, we’re going to have to lend a hand to women we may not like or approve of.

 

[boppaid]

we oppose abortion regardless of the circumstances of conception. why don’t we support pregnant women in any choice they make except abortion regardless of the circumstances of conception? that’s what the pro-choice movement is calling you on.

the more a woman feels boxed in, the more likely she is to choose abortion. if we truly want to save every one of those souls, we’re going to have to lend a hand to women we may not like or approve of.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. It just seems so hyppocritical to me. Have the baby, have the baby, have the baby! Now, let’s force you to give up the baby or let’s refuse to help you. Think about sidewalk rtl counselors. They tell women, “Have the baby! You can do it! God will see you through.” Yet, it’s a different story once they do have the children. It’s all about judgement again.

 

[sojo]

We were finally, after much prayer and a miracle able to give birth to our only birth-child 3 weeks before I hit full menopause… and then the amnio showed he had Down syndrome. Our family urged, no PUSHED abortion with the sole exception of my atheist sister who said “follow your heart and we’ll support you” and the total silence from my “born again” evangelical brother. Later we heard he was shocked but approving that his little papist sister made a decision not to murder her baby. But never an offer of help while we wondered if we were going to lose our home as a result of medical bills involved. Did I mention he just before that inherited over $1million to add to his already aquired fortune?

Last summer, my brother believed Christ wanted him to bring my Mom out for one last visit to us and her grandson before she died (opposite coasts). When asked why my son couldn’t do this or that that in her imagination, my disabled son should have been capable (denial), I shared a teeny-tiney bit about what our day-to-day life is like with a son with disabilities, and she said, “well, I TOLD you to get an abortion… any hardships now are your own fault, you should have aborted him.”

OK, so the whole visit crumbles… Oh, and I took off much time from my little internet biz I do so I can help put food on the table because of the big occasion of my mom’s visit.

Meanwhile, we still worry week to week about losing the house, paying for food, and trying to make my son’s life a total joy despite the circumstances. It would be easier without knowing my brother is worth $2 million dollars but felt the money was better spent to bring my Mother out to pour some salt around a wound. But OK, he did what he thought was right, and when I told him and his wife what Mom said, just didn’t have the guts to do more than stare in silence…

Lesson – not everyone can depend on family. And an atheist could end up being the most understanding and supportive in a family, even if just emotionally.

99.9% of my family still believes we deserve no help or support 'cause we shoulda/coulda/ougha aborted Sam. Sam who is learning his times tables… rides a horse with a giant grin on his face… falls asleep with a toy catalog on his pillow (and now, we have no clue how we’re going to buy those toys this coming Christmas), who stops mid-stream down the aisle at Mass to hug some stranger his Guardian Angel must have pointed out really needed a hug…

God Bless those few government programs that have paid for Sam’s therapies and provided a caseworker to just say “good job, you’re doing great” when there was no family to do so…

Just saying…

sojo

 

[kim3260]

Emily and Boppaid,
I’m sorry, I think you miss my point, I am not speaking of the young woman who gets in trouble, or the young married who is struggling, but the REPEAT offender and we know who they are, we see it but deny it’s there, but face it, there are the girls out there with 3 or 4 kids without fathers, most do not even know who they slept with. They have drug addicted babies and will do it all over again. By removing the children we might actually save the next generation.
Most of them don’t care if you say “save your baby”, they see more money. Most of them would have an abortion if no money offered.

 

[kim3260]

I hear this comment all the time, but I remind people that $30,000 (30 years ago) is now only worth about $15,000.

may I remind you this is what we earned last year to be exact $29,569, want to see my tax return we live just fine and don’t waste. 30 years ago I was 17.

 

[Trader]

I wonder what he’d have said about my idea that parents on welfare should come to school with their children and help them learn?

I don’t think you would have much in common with that former senator. You don’t even use the same restrooms. It was Carol Mosely Braun.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Hi,

I run a homeless ministry in my church through a private organization. It is totally run by volunteers(except the office staff of 4)and is run through churches in our county(whoever signs up)

Sadly, not all the churches participate

It is called IHN(Interfaith Hospitality Network)they are nationwide based in California. Our church house mostly women and children six times a year. The people in our program are people who really want to make a better life for themselves. IHN staff train them, teach them how to budget, get them jobs and financial assistance, among other things. The bottom line is most of these people get back on their feet they just need a little help doing so. The people in the program are 60% children. We have them coming to our church tom. and there is one young lady that is in a quandry of what to do. LISTEN TO THIS STUPID STATE SET UP She can either get financial assistance and not be able to work or work and lose her financial assistance. The point is most people want to work but even still just need a little help to get out of poverty. IT seems to me the government in my state want to keep these people oppressed.

The Lord tells us over a hundred times to help the needy and poor. So, I say ALL people deserve at least one chance. I would say if they are abusing the system then they should be cut off until they are ready to REALLY try to do better.

But, ultimately we are to always give a person a chance if they are sincere.

 

[kim3260]

ALLFORHIM,
God Bless you, I feel for this young lady and this is what I mean, a different system is needed ASPA, if people want to work to better themselves they should not be punished. She should have help to better herself.
What happened is we encouraged generations of folks to “live off the system” and pass it down to the kids. Everyone makes a mistake or has a tough break and we need to help them out, but when we are paying for sneakers, ipods and “fancy” cell phones (not the old pre-paid that are quite cheap and many deserving poor have them) it gets me a bit upset.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

ALLFORHIM,
God Bless you, I feel for this young lady and this is what I mean, a different system is needed ASPA, if people want to work to better themselves they should not be punished. She should have help to better herself.
What happened is we encouraged generations of folks to “live off the system” and pass it down to the kids. Everyone makes a mistake or has a tough break and we need to help them out, but when we are paying for sneakers, ipods and “fancy” cell phones (not the old pre-paid that are quite cheap and many deserving poor have them) it gets me a bit upset.

When the director told me of this I THOUGHT HOW STUPI IS THAT!!!

She has 3 little kids and is currently getting her GED and wants to go to college. She wants to help herself but yet the system wont let her.
The laws REALLY need to change. I know we have an organization that is working on it but these politicians are ridiculous.

 

[boppaid]

Sojo, God Bless you and your wonderful son. He has a purpose in life and is here by God’s soverign will. Give your son another hug tonight and tell all the nay-sayers and negative people in your life to get a life of their own!

 

[boppaid]

Emily and Boppaid,
I’m sorry, I think you miss my point, I am not speaking of the young woman who gets in trouble, or the young married who is struggling, but the REPEAT offender and we know who they are, we see it but deny it’s there, but face it, there are the girls out there with 3 or 4 kids without fathers, most do not even know who they slept with. They have drug addicted babies and will do it all over again. By removing the children we might actually save the next generation.
Most of them don’t care if you say “save your baby”, they see more money. Most of them would have an abortion if no money offered.

I understand that there are people like that, but the MAJORITY aren’t. If a few jerks who milk the system fall through the cracks, it’s still better to save the people who are deserving. You can’t start saying, “okay, you have 1 child, your child and you can have health care.” “oops, you have two children while unmarried…your first one gets health care, b ut you don’t.” Do you see what I’m saying?

 

[Trader]

I think you hit the nail on the head here. It just seems so hyppocritical to me. Have the baby, have the baby, have the baby! Now, let’s force you to give up the baby or let’s refuse to help you. Think about sidewalk rtl counselors. They tell women, “Have the baby! You can do it! God will see you through.” Yet, it’s a different story once they do have the children. It’s all about judgement again.

It seems more consistent than that to me. It really is about what is best for the baby. The baby and the mother are not equal in resources. The baby is totally defenseless. Before birth it is best for the baby to live.

After birth it is best for the baby to have a stable loving two parent family. In many cases the only way to do that is adoption. That isn’t hypocrisy. It is reality. Just how much aid would it take to turn a single mother into a two parent family? If the mother is very young the best option besides adoption is usually to live with her parents. If she is older it may be the right thing to marry the father of the baby.

Every mother eventually has to give up her baby. Ideally the baby has grown into competent and resposible adult by then. That is also about what is best for the baby, not what meets the emotional needs of the mother. I’ll bet you know some real horror stories about mothers who won’t let go at the appropriate time and do real damage to the child they claim to love.