Who are the deserving poor?

[RobHom]

Personally…I think that “charity” begins at home. I realize that there are many poor people, and many of them are in that state through little fault of their own. Many are there because of errors they made, or just simply because they were born into it.

Many of you have made good points… and its a huge problem, and there is no one sure answer or solution.

On a different note…the other night I was stopped at the Pilot Truck Stop in Baytown, TX for the night…and out of the blue a fellow approached my tractor. He looked in rough shape. Maybe he was an alcoholic and homeless…I waved him away, and he turned away and disappeared quickly. I was left with the strangest feeling. I felt like I had committed a sin.

I am not a fan of panhandlers…but in this instance…I felt as though I had “failed my fellow man”. There I sat… in my air conditioned 2007 International Tractor, with a secure job, a home, money in the bank, a loving wife, and just about all that one could hope for…including good health. Yet…I turned away a person in need. My next impulse was to find him…but he was completely gone. What made it strange was that I was where I could see an expanse of land in the direction he went…but he was completely GONE! Was it a test of my commitment to my faith, and the command to “feed the poor”? If so, I failed miserably. This happened a week ago…and its still bothering me.

The following day farther west on I-10 I came up on a driver who’s tractor overheated and was toting water to pour in his radiator. I had extra anti-freeze, and gave him what I had, and left. I felt I had done something right…but still the other incident comes back to bother me.

I think I know the answer, and its simple. We need to not complicate the issue with mounds of bureaucracies and employees…we need to be charitable to those less fortunate, without even thinking about it. Had I given that fellow $10.00 unconditionally…he would have been able to eat a meal or maybe even two. Yes, maybe he would have misused the funds, but who am I to place conditions on my charity.

I have in the past given foodstuffs to St. Vincent DePaul Society and directly to food drives, etc… I guess I need to do it again, and do it more often. I am fortunate to have what I have…so I can afford to give some of what I have… Did not James say: Faith without works is dead?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Again, we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. We are so far apart on this spectrum, it isn’t funny! We value different things, for sure.

I value helping people – really helping them, not feel-good, ineffective or counter-productive measures. It doesn’t make me feel good to support higher taxes for someone else, so we can subsidize self-destructive behavior. It does make me feel good to see someone get an LPN or RN and go on to be self-supporting.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I have in the past given foodstuffs to St. Vincent DePaul Society and directly to food drives, etc… I guess I need to do it again, and do it more often. I am fortunate to have what I have…so I can afford to give some of what I have… Did not James say: Faith without works is dead?

And you are right. Charity begins at home – or just down the street, or somewhere in your own town.

And charity is what we do – of ourselves with our own time and money. If each of us could mentor and encourage one poor person – as my wife does – we could eliminate most of the poverty in this country.

 

[emily47017]

Yes, maybe he would have misused the funds, but who am I to place conditions on my charity.

ah, thank you for this point.

i also feel that anyone who has to abase themselves to ask for money from a stranger is probably someone who needs my dollar more than i do. lord knows i have precious few dollars, but at least i have food and a roof and running hot water.

i was driving with my dad one day, and we stopped at a red light where a fellow was standing with his hand lettered cardboard “homeless and hungry” sign. i started to look away, pretending i hadn’t seen him – then wondered, what the heck am i doing? so i dug out a couple dollars and gave it to him. much better.

 

[s4angel]

ok I have experiance both sides of this issue.

I don’t think TANF, health insurance, food stamps etc to be a bad idea but from experiance I know they use it or dole it out inappropriatly.

Before my move to WA a couple of years ago I had set up a job and saved enough for rent and a deposit. When I reached Utah I broke down. I had to spend most of my rent and all of my deposit budget to fix my car. When I got to WA I asked for some help with just the deposit and I showed them proof I had a job lined up. I was shocked and upset when I was told I could not get help unless I did not have a job. I told them point blank that that was bitting off their nose to spite their face. All I needed to be on my feet was $400. So long story short I had to quit my job and go on welfare. Total cost to the taxpayers almost $2000 instead of $400.
Not to mention I ended up homeless my children were molested and the cost to the state for the investigation and jailing of the perpatrator. All which could have been avoided.

I have been on state aid twice once when I was forced when I moved to WA and again 2 years ago when I had cancer and became to sick to work. My childrens Father?? Well lets just say he is dead beat literaly.

My point is. The system needs to give the appropriate help needed to those willing to help themselves.
I did pay back the state of WA for what I recieved. But I still feel that it would have been better to have helped appropriatly.

 

[vern_humphrey]

When I got to WA I asked for some help with just the deposit and I showed them proof I had a job lined up. I was shocked and upset when I was told I could not get help unless I did not have a job. I told them point blank that that was bitting off their nose to spite their face. All I needed to be on my feet was $400. So long story short I had to quit my job and go on welfare. Total cost to the taxpayers almost $2000 instead of $400.

A system that would do this – force someone with a job into joblessness – is fundamentally wrong.

Not to mention I ended up homeless my children were molested and the cost to the state for the investigation and jailing of the perpatrator. All which could have been avoided.

My heart and my prayers go out to you.

I have been on state aid twice once when I was forced when I moved to WA and again 2 years ago when I had cancer and became to sick to work. My childrens Father?? Well lets just say he is dead beat literaly.

My point is. The system needs to give the appropriate help needed to those willing to help themselves.
I did pay back the state of WA for what I recieved. But I still feel that it would have been better to have helped appropriatly.

I couldn’t agree more. What a dispicable system!!

 

[emily47017]

ok I have experiance both sides of this issue.

i’ve run up against the no-aid-if-you’re-working-rule, too. the fellow who first reviewed my case looked at my pay stub for 8 hours per month and told me, “this shows you can work.” excuse me?! luckily it turned out he was being a little overzealous and i did get the aid without having to quit my teeny tiny little job…

your story shows that it’s not only a stupid policy, but it’s also dangerous. it makes my heart hurt. i’m so, so sorry any of this happened to you.

 

[josephdavid]

How many people do you know who work two full time jobs and also draw welfare?

Let me take you to a few neighborhoods in Chicago and rural Wisconsin and you will see. Also my mother was one of them.

 

[josephdavid]

I value helping people – really helping them, not feel-good, ineffective or counter-productive measures. It doesn’t make me feel good to support higher taxes for someone else, so we can subsidize self-destructive behavior. It does make me feel good to see someone get an LPN or RN and go on to be self-supporting.

To a certain point I agree. Many programs lack good management. The program maybe deserving of the funds. But need just a little tweaking (sometimes alot) but it does help. Much more moral than cutting the funds all together thus cancelling the social program, thus helping no one.

You have to realize a good chuck of our taxes used to fund social programs such as head start, school lunch, etc do affect and help those who truly need it.

I would rather pay higher taxes to fund education, welfare, healthcare than not. Sometimes I think those who are against paying taxes are only interested in their own wallet. I have a moral obligation and so does the politician to do things that will benifit the society I live. We can not turn the back on the poor . If the program seems broken then work to fix it not just cancel it all together thus helping no one.

 

[vern_humphrey]

To a certain point I agree. Many programs lack good management. The program maybe deserving of the funds. But need just a little tweaking (sometimes alot) but it does help. Much more moral than cutting the funds all together thus cancelling the social program, thus helping no one.

What about programs that do actual damage?

Doesn’t it make sense to radically re-structure those programs, or replace them with others that actually work?

You have to realize a good chuck of our taxes used to fund social programs such as head start, school lunch, etc do affect and help those who truly need it.

Head Start has never been shown to be effective. It is based on a study from the '50s, on an initiative that was not Head Start. Every study I’m aware of indicates that the “advantages” of Head Start is illusory – whatever it gives the children soon dissipates and by the 4th grade there is no difference between Head Start and non-Head Start children.

I would rather pay higher taxes to fund education, welfare, healthcare than not.

But I want strict controls. When I fund education, for example, I want the children to get an education. Right now, about 30% of children do not finish high school – they are in essense “thrown away” by the system.

Here in Arkansas, of those **who go on to college **-- the best and the brightest – 54% have to take remedial courses. Which means, of course, that they graduated from high school without achieving a high school standard of work.

Sometimes I think those who are against paying taxes are only interested in their own wallet.

It always helps to attack the other guy’s motive.

I have a moral obligation and so does the politician to do things that will benifit the society I live.

Then the things that are done should actually** benefit** the society – not hurt it, perpetuate the poverty cycle, increase the rate of out-of-wedlock births and the numbers of single parents.

We can not turn the back on the poor

Yet we do **exactly **that. We don’t educate the children of the poor, we don’t have programs that make productive citizens out of them, we just make it possible for them to live in poverty and dispair.

If the program seems broken then work to fix it not just cancel it all together thus helping no one.

When the program is counterproductive – when it does real harm – it should be replaced, not patched up.

 

[josephdavid]

Doesn’t it make sense to radically re-structure those programs, or replace them with others that actually work?

Not doubting you but show me some programs that never worked at all?
I am a believer in Constant Improvement methods and they work in business and they can work in government. So why not make those programs work? Cutting the funding will not.

But I want strict controls. When I fund education, for example, I want the children to get an education. Right now, about 30% of children do not finish high school – they are in essense “thrown away” by the system.

There is where funding needs to be increased and fresh management of the Dept. of Education needs to be revamped and retooled.

A good example is No Child Left Behind. Personally I thought it was brilliant, absolutely brilliant. I have a close friend who is a Vice Principal who also was cheering this but then it was grossly underfunded to make it work for everyone. It needs some tweaking (both in funding and I am sure in other areas) but I would never cancel it.

Then the things that are done should actually** benefit** the society – not hurt it, perpetuate the poverty cycle, increase the rate of out-of-wedlock births and the numbers of single parents.

There are many things we can do to fight poverty. Sadly we as a country do not look at the whole picture we always seem to find one cause or one solution but not looking at whole picture. Kind of like the Bible. If you read just one book in the Bible you would not get the whole picture of God’s divine plan for us AND we would not understand our faith very well would we?

Yet we do **exactly **that. We don’t educate the children of the poor, we don’t have programs that make productive citizens out of them, we just make it possible for them to live in poverty and dispair.

We do to a certain point and it goes back to my point above. We always find one thing which is only a small part when the problem(s) are so much larger with many different contributors to the problem.

When the program is counterproductive – when it does real harm – it should be replaced, not patched up

.

Give me a example please.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Not doubting you but show me some programs that never worked at all?

The public school system (30% of children never graduate). Head Start – it’s supposed benefits disappear by the 4th Grade.

I am a believer in Constant Improvement methods and they work in business and they can work in government. So why not make those programs work? Cutting the funding will not.

Neither will increasing funding – like the public school system, these programs ahve shown they can absorb unlimited amounts of money and produce only minimal results at best.

There is where funding needs to be increased and fresh management of the Dept. of Education needs to be revamped and retooled.

The Department of Education doesn’t run Head Start – it’s run by the Department of Health and Human Services.

A good example is No Child Left Behind. Personally I thought it was brilliant, absolutely brilliant. I have a close friend who is a Vice Principal who also was cheering this but then it was grossly underfunded to make it work for everyone. It needs some tweaking (both in funding and I am sure in other areas) but I would never cancel it.

How is it “underfunded?”

Let me point out, there is not a single peer-reviewed study that shows a correlation between dollars spent and quality of education. Good (or bad) examples for this include the District of Columbia, where they spend as much per child as it would cost to put a kid through Harvard – and have arguably the worst schools in the country. Then there’s Kansas City, where the courts ordered local government to raise taxes, spent literally billions – and when it was all over, Kansas City kids had fallen behind other kids of the same socio-economoic background.

There are many things we can do to fight poverty.

There are also many things we can do to perpetuate and increase poverty – and sadly, those are the things the government is pushing.

Sadly we as a country do not look at the whole picture we always seem to find one cause or one solution but not looking at whole picture. Kind of like the Bible. If you read just one book in the Bible you would not get the whole picture of God’s divine plan for us AND we would not understand our faith very well would we?

I recommend you hold that in mind when you debate these issues.

We do to a certain point and it goes back to my point above. We always find one thing which is only a small part when the problem(s) are so much larger with many different contributors to the problem.

And we fail – albeit, we succeed in spending a lot of money as we fail.

Give me a example please.

The welfare system itself – it has broken up Black families with the Man-in-the-house rule, relieved men of their responsibility to their families, promoted out-of-wedlock births (more than a third of all babies born in the US these days are born out of wedlock), and perpetuated welfare-as-an-economic-strategy, with as many as four generations of the same family being on welfare.

 

[Trader]

For whatever reasons, for many is easier to give money to relieve people in far off lands than to help that local alcoholic bum who urinates on the store windows and sleeps on the park bench you walk by on the way to work.

Many of those who need help have hair-raising personal histories that include an array of bad choices. Boozing, drugging, promiscuity, out-of-wedlock pregnancies, run-in’s with social agencies and law enforcement, school dropout, financial irresponsibility, poor language skills - you name it - dealing with these folks is not an uplifting experience. Then there qre the nutcakes and sociopaths who are scary and dangerous.

Up close and personal, many of these people are just ugly. Thats’ why it is easier for their advocates to go to Washington for help. The fewer people who actually know the people who are going to receive the benefits the better.

And the person who needs help has much less chance of getting the right help because of that.

True story: A local man was shot and killed in a grocery store parking lot by an off duty city police officer during an attempted armed robbery. The only time the family saw him as an asset was when they filed the wrongful death suit against the city. They were quoted in the newspaper, “We knew he was a thief and drug addict, but he wasn’t violent.” They just didn’t see it as their job to do anything about it.

 

[scarlet405]

Head Start has never been shown to be effective.

Right now, about 30% of children do not finish high school – they are in essense “thrown away” by the system.

OK, So I am a teacher and I find that “in my opinion” some of your opinions are not quite valid.

 

[boppaid]

A good example is No Child Left Behind. Personally I thought it was brilliant, absolutely brilliant. I have a close friend who is a Vice Principal who also was cheering this but then it was grossly underfunded to make it work for everyone. It needs some tweaking (both in funding and I am sure in other areas) but I would never cancel it.

One problem I see with NCLB is that they “punish” schools where students poorly by denying funds to them. Um, hello…the schools that do poorly need MORE funds, not LESS!

 

[scarlet405]

One problem I see with NCLB is that they “punish” schools where students poorly by denying funds to them. Um, hello…the schools that do poorly need MORE funds, not LESS!

I understand perfectly what you are talking about and the problems that it can create. Since I am a teacher, I have been here when we got NCLB, and we answered it with “Highly Qualified” teachers, Alabama Reading Initiative, the Alabama Math Initiative, involving our students in remediation and meeting Annual Yearly Progress. All teachers share in the learning of each student, whether through remediation, or just trying to regroup students into smaller groups to make learning an easier task. The teachers at my school must work together across the grade level and beyond into the whole school. We look at test results from “everywhere”, see where we are short and try to implement new plans. Many (myself included) apply for grants to get the necessary supplies to help our students learn. (I personally have won 4 in the last 5 years, and let me tell you that helps, and it is NOT funded by the local, state or federal governments.

You however are 100% correct, you cannot tell a school system they have failed their students, without giving them the opportunity to try again. Sometimes they meet with success and sometimes they do not, but funding certainly helps.

As I keep saying, to me the most needy and deserving of the poor are the children. We have to do what we can for them so that they have a fair and equal chance in life. It is our hope that we can “break” the cycle of poverty. Maybe that is a pipe dream, but it is what we, as teachers, aspire to.

 

[anniemart]

vern humphrey;2517244:

Head Start has never been shown to be effective.
Right now, about 30% of children do not finish high school – they are in essense “thrown away” by the system.

OK, So I am a teacher and I find that “in my opinion” some of your opinions are not quite valid.

this web site has a survey that started in 2003 and runs through 2009, with the improvements that have been made in education. Another web site is: www.highscope.org/Content.asp?ContentId=260 Here they compare those poor children who went to Head Start vs those who did not, or had other care. It shows how far they came from 4-5 year olds, how they stayed with their peers as OPPOSED to those with NO Head Start. It also discusses the absentee father, who makes a difference. You will find that they also discuss how much parental involvement goes on and how that affects the DROP OUT rate.

As for funding, schools cannot operate without it, and I live in one of the states that spends the least per capita and also live in a low-socioeconic, rural area. We depend upon funding to get the basics just to teach. I will tell you that I personally spend between $2,000 - $6,000 a year (that I keep records on). The needs that I provide for individual “needy poor students” I do NOT claim, I just feel that is my Christian duty. Here is a website that is not antiquated about funding the education system in the US.
www.npr.org/programs/specials/polleducation/education.front.html

As a first grade teacher, I can tell the poor children who had the opportunity to go to Head Start, vs those needy children who did not. The ones who went to Head Start have been given the advantage to be on level with their peers. Those who did not get a lot of remediation, but have a difficult time catching up for any number of reasons.

I think the important thing is to remember that the children NEED QUALITY education, and that starts at home. If they do not get it at home, then the teacher becomes teacher, mom, dad, social worker and police officer. You tell me, that I am not doing my job, when I take students who do NOT recognize letters or sounds and teach them to read. You tell me, that I am not doing my job, when I get a child who doesn’t know his colors, but by the end of the year reads the words without thought. You tell me, that I am not doing my job when I take students who have no clue how to count and teach them to add/subtract and regroup.

Think about what you are saying and realize that you can NOT make BLANKET statements in education. There are too many variables, and they are NOT all the teachers fault, she/he just gets blamed for them.

Now I am not trying to hurt your feelings, I just want you to be aware, that for every study done out there, there is another just the opposite. Not all teachers are lazy, and many have more jobs than you can fulfill in a lifetime. This is a high stress job, because you want the best for your students and sometimes YOU are the ONLY ONE who wants that, because the parents think of us as baby sitters.

About the drop out rate, I take that into consideration from day one. I know that if a child leaves my room and cannot read, write and do math at least on level with the average student, his/her chance of being a drop out comes into play. Am I the ONLY one responsible for that, NO. The parent who will not or cannot help their child has a part in that, and all of those parents who put athletics ahead of education are also to blame.

These children are the DESERVING POOR!!! We need to realize this, and work toward helping them become better educated, so that they do not live in poverty forever. Anyone can volunteer at a school, to help read with students, to be a mentor (of course you have to have a background check), but here is a way for everyone to help and it would only cost them about 30 minutes a week. Think about that. I am here for the children!!!

I was there for my own and still am, but I am here for those I teach. They are my priority in life, and I will do what I must to help them. Think about me and know that there are teachers like me in your school system, in your state and then decide the tax money is not necessary. If you still feel that way, donate your time, I guarantee you will not be turned away.

 

[anniemart]

scarlet405, Post #194,

Wow! Our Lord is smiling down on you for your response. There are too many variables to take liberty with blanket statements that given the right audience, can sound like spun gold. But, I too have witnessed the struggle these children go through…Here in Texas, I worked for several years with families receiving TANF and Food Stamps. (Our grand old state was the first to forego easing into public assistance time limits and we created our own system. We initially had hundreds upon hundreds of families on the “rolls.” Now, we have no extensive rolls as a result.)

When it comes to TANF, guess what, the cash public assistance provided is not intended to be enough, it isn’t vacation money or party money…the amount provided depends on the size of family and whether or not there are two parents or just one in the house…it was never intended to be enough to last the whole month so, therefore, it is meant to encourage the payee to search and secure good and steady employment.

Maybe once or twice did I find someone actually cheating the system but believe me that was all. Most families are not kicking back generation after generation…not with instituted time limits…besides, there are far more people on public assistance that would rather not be on it; despite Mr. Humphrey’s indicated beliefs.

Even more so, statistically speaking, all cash public assistance received per family totals to less than what two or even a single parent can make on minimum wage. These families are taught this rule of thumb and honestly, do work hard to get off of assistance quickly.

One factor that does need to be addressed is that as long as funded childcare can be provided, families on public assistance have a chance…a chance to secure entry level employment and with good and dependable case workers arming them with community resources including self-esteem building among other “human” skills, they can step up into careers and pay for these expenses completely on their own.

And since we live in a society that is service driven with households where both parents work, my bet is that there will always be a need for childcare workers. By the way, many families earn credit and experience by volunteering while receiving public assistance so they really aren’t looking out the window waiting for the check to come.

And you are absolutely correct, headstart is meant to provide an opportunity for these children to “catch up” and be on par with their fellow students when they initially enter school. It’s purpose was never meant to act as a “competive step up” on the rest of the kids.

God Bless us all indeed!

 

[scarlet405]

anniemart #197

Thank you. You are correct in what you say also, especially with regard to childcare. I didn’t think of childcare, just public school children.

The ultimate idea is still the same, at least in my opinion, and I feel that I am getting the same sense from you, and that is the children are the KEY. The children are the TRUE DESERVING POOR, and if we can do anything to break the cycle it will have to be with them.

Providing daycare for parents to get off of public assistance, is helping the children to learn social skills, behavioral skills, and K prep. This is also helping their parents, a classic example of how we must help these poor children.

Head Start puts them on the playing field with their peers and doesn’t leave them in the dug out. (excuse the analogy) You get my idea though, it puts them on the same page as their more advantaged peers and lets them compete and succeed.

We also have to support our teachers, because so many try to find a way to bring them down. If each parent volunteered for 30 mins., they wouldn’t even have to come once a week, but maybe once every 3 weeks. This cost them nothing and means the world to their individual child as well as the child they are helping. There are so many things parents and just regular citizens could do to help, that would be FREE, and oh so valuable to a teacher spread thin. That teacher would be so greatful.

You know Mahatma Ghandi said, “If we are to have true peace in this world, we must first begin with the children.” I believe this applies to so much more in life. It is one of my favorite quotes.

 

[stinkcat_14]

I am a believer in Constant Improvement methods and they work in business and they can work in government. So why not make those programs work? Cutting the funding will not.

These methods may work in business, but primarily because businesses have one primary objective, to make a profit, and it is pretty easy to see whether that goal is met.

I work in a government school and we tried Continuous quality improvement sixteen years ago when I first started, all that ever came of that was a bunch of meetings. It doesn’t help when whether we improve or don’t improve, we all get paid the same. We have also been doing assessment for the past 10 years, which the state mandated on us to increase accountability. Once again, there are no penalties if we do bad, plus we get to define how we assess ourselves, which means we always seem to end up doing good.