Who are the deserving poor?

[vern_humphrey]

The Three Paper Solution
(Continued from previous post)

But wouldn’t the private schools “cherry pick” – take the best students and leave the problem students for the public schools?

Of course not! After all, you’re the one writing the rules. If you’re smart enough to figure they might do this, you’re also smart enough to write a standard to prevent them from doing it.

But wouldn’t the private schools avoid ghetto areas?

That’s what your Third Sheet of paper is for – if private industry or non-profit organizations aren’t willing to open a school in a particular area for $5,000 per child, bid $5,100 – and keep bidding until you get a good school there. You have the money because you held back 10% of the funds, remember?

What about rural areas, or parents in areas where there are no alternative schools? How will these children get to school?

When the money accompanies the child, schools will be where they are needed – aren’t there gas stations and fast food joints wherever they are needed? In addition, there are many alternatives to the traditional method of schooling. A good example is the Arkansas Virtual School. This is now linked to the public school system, and currently offers a complete curriculum up thorough the eighth grade via the Internet. This technology – already available throughout the state – will allow any child to attend a quality school.

But can it be done at the figures you use?

Absolutely! I have worked for a for-profit company as a training analyst, developer and program manager. I have costed out, bid on, and won contracts. In the commercial training industry, the “burden rate” – the cost of overhead, administration, benefits, profit, and so on – is about 100%. That means that for each dollar the company pays a professional (like myself) it must charge the customer two dollars to cover rent, salaries for administrative personnel, social security, benefits and the like, and still make a profit.

If we maintain one teacher for each 25-student classroom and assume $5,000 for each child (Arkansas currently spends over $9,000 per child), that teacher is generating $125,000 per year, and we can afford to pay the teacher about $62,500 a year in salary.

But in a competitive market, we can do innovative things. For example, instead of starting school once a year, we could start school every quarter. This would generate a one-third increase in efficiency, so now the teacher is generating a little over $165,000 a year.

We can do other things – for example, I mentioned the Arkansas Virtual School earlier. I have extensive experience with this type of technology. My company developed Computer-Based Instruction (CBI) programs in basic educational subjects for the Department of Defense. These programs were designed for military personnel who had graduated from the Public School System without the necessary reading, writing and math skills they needed.

We can use such programs combined with live classroom instruction to further increase the efficiency of the professional teacher, and raise the income generated to well over $200,000 per year – which means we could afford to pay teachers an average annual salary of about $100,000. Of course, starting teachers would receive less, while experienced, star-quality teachers would receive much more.

But what would happen to the public schools?

They would become part of the Public Education System – a system in which every child receives the same funding, and can attend any school the parents choose.

Bad public schools – and bad private schools – would fail. Good schools – public and private – would prosper.

What about rapidly-growing areas? How would they get schools?

Very easily. It typically takes the current bureaucracy-ridden system about five years to establish a new school.

But it doesn’t take private industry five years to put a shopping mall near a new subdivision, complete with fast food outlets, grocery and drug stores, video stores and gas stations. Private industry has shown that it can meet all the needs of the public, no matter how fast they change, if the profit is there.

Open up the Public Education System to private industry, and stand back and watch our schools improve.

 

[jman507]

We need to think outside the “money” box.

I guess you can never really say that enough, especially in a thread like this. Assets are always going to need planning on how best to allocate them, but informal systems that has nothing to do with material assets will have a huge effect on the efficiency of the use of those material assets.

Unfortunately I think mostly those informal assets are not any real big surprises, but are easier said than done. You have to try to maintain a responsible lifestyle. You need to care for others you know whom are sick. You need to understand what can cause you diseases and try to come up with plans to mitigate the risks. When ever we talk about rights, you must remember, if those rights are important, you also need to be responsible with the use and abuse of them.

 

[scarlet405]

Vern Humphrey #218 & 219

First let me say this will be my last post for a while, I am leaving to visit my son in Chicago before school starts. I will try to checkback while I am gone if time permits.

You make some interesting and valid points. About the standards you mentioned, we have standards. The teachers have criteria they must meet, and there is a constant check on it to see if they are fulfilling their requirements. We are also graded on our performance and if found lacking we get 1 year to improve. If we fail our Personal Professional Evaluation again, we are fired. That is it, quite simple. You perform or you parish, just as in any other job.

We have standards in each and every subject that is taught. If a parent wants to know on day 1 what will be taught this year, not only should the teacher be able to tell them, but there is a guide and a checksheet to show them. The checksheet is to be monitored closely by the teacher and principal, to insure that the teacher is teaching what she/he says they are teaching, they are writing down the dates (when started, finished, remediation). This is public information that the parent can check on at anytime.

Students are constantly monitored to see if they are meeting the standards through, testing, observation, checksheets and standardized testing.

As far as having a computer center set up for education, have you taken into consideration what happens when the student has a question? Are there teachers there to guide?

I understand how you would feel that making education a private industry could be useful based on your job experience, but I really cannot see it working. People complain about taxes now, and what they are paying now for education would be a small amount compared to the private sector.

Let me clue you in on some money that we get. Last year each teacher was alloted $450.00 to spend in the classroom for teaching supplies. Of that money $225.00 was taken out for such things as copy machines and general operating funds. This left $225.00 to purchase any extra materials for your students. Now do not get me wrong the books are in place, but any hands on activities that make education more real to the student was to come out of this money, as well as what the teacher put in out of pocket. Teachers spend more on their students (or employees) as you will than any other profession. I am not talking about salary, but things necessary for learning. I cannot imagine a corporation taking into consideration whether or not an employee has food, clothing, running water…nor do I see a corporation as concerned about this problem as the individual teacher.

 

[vern_humphrey]

You make some interesting and valid points. About the standards you mentioned, we have standards. The teachers have criteria they must meet, and there is a constant check on it to see if they are fulfilling their requirements. We are also graded on our performance and if found lacking we get 1 year to improve. If we fail our Personal Professional Evaluation again, we are fired. That is it, quite simple. You perform or you parish, just as in any other job.

While I realize you may not be reading this, I have a question – are your standards product-oriented, or process-oriented?

Product-oriented standards don’t pay a lot of attention to methodology, and instead focus on outcome. Process-oriented standards, on the other hand, don’t pay a lot of attention to what is being done, and concentrate on how it is done.

We have standards in each and every subject that is taught. If a parent wants to know on day 1 what will be taught this year, not only should the teacher be able to tell them, but there is a guide and a checksheet to show them. The checksheet is to be monitored closely by the teacher and principal, to insure that the teacher is teaching what she/he says they are teaching, they are writing down the dates (when started, finished, remediation). This is public information that the parent can check on at anytime.

And how are the results checked?

Students are constantly monitored to see if they are meeting the standards through, testing, observation, checksheets and standardized testing.

Now that’s encouraging – testing the students’ performance must be a measure of effectiveness!

As far as having a computer center set up for education, have you taken into consideration what happens when the student has a question? Are there teachers there to guide?

It’s a paradigm shift – you have a different kind of teacher – or I should say different kinds.

On-site you have a teacher who may assist, supervise and monitor a few dozen students in a dozen different subjects. This teacher is certified in the system as a whole and in the courses in question (and data is constantly compiled on the courses to keep this teacher up to date.)

Off-site you have both systems experts and subject matter experts. So if the system isn’t working as it should, there is someone to contact, and if the student has a subject matter question, there is also someone to contact.

I understand how you would feel that making education a private industry could be useful based on your job experience, but I really cannot see it working. People complain about taxes now, and what they are paying now for education would be a small amount compared to the private sector.

Did I point out that in the private sector, the training and education industry averages about 100% burden rate? That means for each dollar the teacher gets, the company must get two dollars – the extra dollar pays for administrative expenses, equipment, rent, heat, light, and so on – and profit.

Now if each teacher has 25 students, at $5,000 a student per year, the teacher is generating $125,000 a year. And at 100% burden rate, we can pay the teacher $62,500 a year.

Now in little old poverty-stricken Arkanasas we spend about $9,000 a year. So that teacher would generate $225,000 a year – and we could afford to pay him or her $112,500 a year!

And that’s without introducing any of the efficiencies I outlined – including CAI courses.

Let me clue you in on some money that we get. Last year each teacher was alloted $450.00 to spend in the classroom for teaching supplies. Of that money $225.00 was taken out for such things as copy machines and general operating funds. This left $225.00 to purchase any extra materials for your students. Now do not get me wrong the books are in place, but any hands on activities that make education more real to the student was to come out of this money, as well as what the teacher put in out of pocket. Teachers spend more on their students (or employees) as you will than any other profession. I am not talking about salary, but things necessary for learning. I cannot imagine a corporation taking into consideration whether or not an employee has food, clothing, running water…nor do I see a corporation as concerned about this problem as the individual teacher.

Okay – what is your per-pupil expenditure in your state? And what is the average teacher salary. From that, you can figure out what your burden rate is – what is it?

It looks like it must be substantially over 100% – which is what one would expect in a non-competitive system.

 

[Sixtus]

Abolute poverty in my experience [not of poverty but those who are poor] is often the result of individuals facing great tribulation and not being able to cope.

I am aware of one hobo who was a teacher and well respected. His wife left him for another man and took the children. He just could not cope without them, he simply went on the streets to look for them and after a period of mental illness, stayed there.

That is poverty. I am aware of another hobo who was until three years ago, an Anglican Priest, who upon being dismissed, just could not cope with life and its challenges.

Others have faced insurmountable problems not of their own making.

I think that we have an absolute duty of care and duty of love to help wherever we can, even if it is only to speak to them and not be afraid to be seen by Joe public of speaking.

I think it is a real priveldge and gift to be known to them and able to speak to them. In them I see the face of the suffering Christ

 

[emily47017]

I think it is a real priveldge and gift to be known to them and able to speak to them. In them I see the face of the suffering Christ

what a lovely post! do you do work with homeless folks?

 

[boppaid]

I think it is a real priveldge and gift to be known to them and able to speak to them. In them I see the face of the suffering Christ

Inspiring. Thank you.

 

[Sixtus]

emily47017

I think it is a real priveldge and gift to be known to them and able to speak to them. In them I see the face of the suffering Christ

do you do work with homeless folks?

---

boppaid

I think it is a real priveldge and gift to be known to them and able to speak to them. In them I see the face of the suffering Christ

Inspiring. Thank you.

No, THANK YOU for your kind words. It is but by the grace of God that I [or any of us] are not one of their number. But then again perhaps I am in my true sinful state. A hobo of the Kingdom eh!

I work with a Catholic Group who provide meals to anyone who cares to drop in. As as result of serving them, am known and often see them about town.

If I see them first, always make a point of going over to speak. They have very low self-esteem. They NEED to be spoken to, by ordinary folk. If anyone wants to give it a go, providing you are in a public place, just go up and say ‘Hello’ and if you can spare it, take them and buy them a cup of tea. You might be the first ‘normal’ person to speak to them or show any love in several years. So don’t be surprised if they look bewildered.

They are very rich in life’s experiences and often have amazing tales to tell. If you get rejected at first, please do not be put off or disuaded, as they have usually been hurt, I mean grieviously hurt by ‘ordinary folk’ that is why they are where they are.

I believe it is not ‘time wasted’ or ‘time spent’ but ‘time invested’

What you do, will be to them a miracle and may be the turning point and the first steps on their long road to recovery

 

[vern_humphrey]

Abolute poverty in my experience [not of poverty but those who are poor] is often the result of individuals facing great tribulation and not being able to cope.

I am aware of one hobo who was a teacher and well respected. His wife left him for another man and took the children. He just could not cope without them, he simply went on the streets to look for them and after a period of mental illness, stayed there.

That is poverty. I am aware of another hobo who was until three years ago, an Anglican Priest, who upon being dismissed, just could not cope with life and its challenges.

Others have faced insurmountable problems not of their own making.

I think that we have an absolute duty of care and duty of love to help wherever we can, even if it is only to speak to them and not be afraid to be seen by Joe public of speaking.

I think it is a real priveldge and gift to be known to them and able to speak to them. In them I see the face of the suffering Christ

Indeed – you have outlined one great problem of dealing with the poor. How do we help such people?

Some would have us institutionalize them – but that would merely add to their misery.

 

[Sixtus]

vern humphrey

Indeed – you have outlined one great problem of dealing with the poor. How do we help such people?

Some would have us institutionalize them – but that would merely add to their misery.

Institutionalisation is seen as repressive and custodial.

All many of them need to help stem their demise and turn their lives around, putting them on the road to recovery is a simple miracle

It is the miracle of Love which every Christian has to give. The fact that someone cares is more often than not, all it takes

Be nice to them, speak to them as you would a dear friend. Do not take offence at their first responses. You may want to ask them if they have time for you to buy them a coffee/tea

Don’t ask personal questions or ‘how they got in that state’ as they would see that as very condescending. Remember that most people who speak to them do so to offend and insult so do not be surprised if they are a bit weiry or suspicious. Trust has to be earned and sometimes it takes more than one encounter.

It really is worth persevering with. Just a few kind words could turn them around and put them on the road to recovery. The fact that someone cares is more often than not, all it takes

 

[vern_humphrey]

Institutionalisation is seen as repressive and custodial.

All many of them need to help stem their demise and turn their lives around, putting them on the road to recovery is a simple miracle

It is the miracle of Love which every Christian has to give. The fact that someone cares is more often than not, all it takes

Sometimes it is difficult indeed. I am reminded of the woman found dead at the bus stop in front of HHS during the Clinton Administration. Henry Cisneros, the Secretary of HHS, took it very hard. But it transpired the woman had a wallet on a string around her neck – containing several hundred dollars and a ticket for that night at a woman’s shelter. And she also had a loving family who were out looking for her.

She chose to spend the night on that bench. She had three other choices – go to the shelter, rent a room, or go home, and she picked Choice D.

Be nice to them, speak to them as you would a dear friend. Do not take offence at their first responses. You may want to ask them if they have time for you to buy them a coffee/tea

Don’t ask personal questions or ‘how they got in that state’ as they would see that as very condescending. Remember that most people who speak to them do so to offend and insult so do not be surprised if they are a bit weiry or suspicious. Trust has to be earned and sometimes it takes more than one encounter.

I could give you a long list of names of people like this - including some close to me and my family.

It really is worth persevering with. Just a few kind words could turn them around and put them on the road to recovery. The fact that someone cares is more often than not, all it takes

I only wish it were that simple.

I know a young man who is homeless and on drugs. When I talk to him, he’s always polite and ready to change his life. And the next time I see or hear from him, he’s zoned out and in jail.

I know a man and woman who together destroyed her marriage, wrecked her car, put themselves in the hospital – and continue in this behavior. There are children involved, which is the saddest part.

 

[emily47017]

She chose to spend the night on that bench. She had three other choices – go to the shelter, rent a room, or go home, and she picked Choice D.

perhaps she was on her way to one or the other, felt herself dying, and lay down to rest.

 

[vern_humphrey]

perhaps she was on her way to one or the other, felt herself dying, and lay down to rest.

The point is, she was on the street by choice. She chose to leave her family. She chose not to remain at the shelter when she got the ticket. She chose to pass hotels and motels on her way to that bus stop.

Many homeless people choose to be on the street. The choice may be irrational in our eyes, but they choose it.

These people have nothing – and cannot have anything. You can give them millions and they will soon dissipate it. The only thing they have is their freedom – the freedom to make their own choices, as irrational as they may seem to us.

Are we to take from them the only thing they have?

 

[drafdog]

The question from the original poster is: Who among the poor deserves our alms?

The Torah commands that we give alms to the poor. The original intent of the tithe law was to provide funds and food to be distributed by the Levites to the poor.
There is nothing in the Torah which can be considered as criteria for recipients of the alms from the tithe. The Torah does not talk about “deserving” or “undeserving.” There is only the commandment to give alms.

As Christians we are under a further injunction from God and that is to see that our righteousness exceeds that of the Scribes and Pharisees, those persons who follow scrupulously the dictates of the Torah. Thus our almsgiving should in its generosity and free-handedness exceed the generosity mandated by the Torah.

If the Torah makes no exception for immorality or foolishness on the part of the recipient of alms, it is doubly wrong for Christians to even think that there is a condition under which we are not to give alms to the poor. Let it suffice that they are poor. Give alms because they are poor and you are not. There is an old saying: “Let it be on their heads what they do with it. Let it not be on our heads that we did not give it them.”

Matthew

 

[vern_humphrey]

The question from the original poster is: Who among the poor deserves our alms?

The Torah commands that we give alms to the poor. The original intent of the tithe law was to provide funds and food to be distributed by the Levites to the poor.
There is nothing in the Torah which can be considered as criteria for recipients of the alms from the tithe. The Torah does not talk about “deserving” or “undeserving.” There is only the commandment to give alms.

As Christians we are under a further injunction from God and that is to see that our righteousness exceeds that of the Scribes and Pharisees, those persons who follow scrupulously the dictates of the Torah. Thus our almsgiving should in its generosity and free-handedness exceed the generosity mandated by the Torah.

If the Torah makes no exception for immorality or foolishness on the part of the recipient of alms, it is doubly wrong for Christians to even think that there is a condition under which we are not to give alms to the poor. Let it suffice that they are poor. Give alms because they are poor and you are not. There is an old saying: “Let it be on their heads what they do with it. Let it not be on our heads that we did not give it them.”

Matthew

Saint Paul tells us who will not work, neither shall he eat. He tells us only real widows should be supported by the Church – women over 60 with no families to support them.

 

[emily47017]

The question from the original poster is: Who among the poor deserves our alms?

EXCELLENT post! thank you!

 

[Trader]

The question from the original poster is: Who among the poor deserves our alms?

The Torah commands that we give alms to the poor. The original intent of the tithe law was to provide funds and food to be distributed by the Levites to the poor.
There is nothing in the Torah which can be considered as criteria for recipients of the alms from the tithe. The Torah does not talk about “deserving” or “undeserving.” There is only the commandment to give alms.

As Christians we are under a further injunction from God and that is to see that our righteousness exceeds that of the Scribes and Pharisees, those persons who follow scrupulously the dictates of the Torah. Thus our almsgiving should in its generosity and free-handedness exceed the generosity mandated by the Torah.

If the Torah makes no exception for immorality or foolishness on the part of the recipient of alms, it is doubly wrong for Christians to even think that there is a condition under which we are not to give alms to the poor. Let it suffice that they are poor. Give alms because they are poor and you are not. There is an old saying: “Let it be on their heads what they do with it. Let it not be on our heads that we did not give it them.”

Matthew

My parish church is in the heart of downtown. On two different occasions I have been greeted by someone in the parking lot asking for money for food. On both occasions I offered to drive the man a few blocks to the Saint Vincent dePaul Society where he would get a food voucher good at several grocery stores.

Guess what? On both occasions the men declined the offer. They only wanted cash. If I had the cash, which I rarely do, should I have financed his final overdose? Yes, that would have been on his head, but also on mine.

Prudence is also a gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[emily47017]

Guess what? On both occasions the men declined the offer. They only wanted cash.

of course, i don’t know these fellows or anything about them, but homeless people need more than food. in seattle, i know, it’s easier for homeless people to get food than anything else.

maybe they needed an asprin. or a new pair of socks. or bus fare. you can’t assume that they wanted money for something you would disapprove of just because they wouldn’t accept a food voucher instead.

 

[Trader]

of course, i don’t know these fellows or anything about them, but homeless people need more than food. in seattle, i know, it’s easier for homeless people to get food than anything else.

maybe they needed an asprin. or a new pair of socks. or bus fare. you can’t assume that they wanted money for something you would disapprove of just because they wouldn’t accept a food voucher instead.

I don’t know that either of these men were homeless. Fort Wayne has much more affordable housing than Seattle.

I do know that they asked for money for food, but would not accept food vouchers.

I do know that the Saint Vincent dePaul Society also provides clothing. They do not hand out cash for good reasons.

I do know that these men were only one block from our free Matthew 25 Medical/Dental Clinic, although it does specialize in children.

I do know that they were only four blocks from the homeless shelter, if they needed a place to stay.

I do know they were only two blocks from the Saint Mary Soup Kitchen.

I also know that just two blocks past the Soup Kitchen are our local crack houses. Even smaller cities have them.

This whole thread has not really been about who is deserving, but about how the poor can really be helped. Helping is not supposed to be about how it makes you feel. Enabling harmful behavior is not helping. Crack cocaine can kill.

 

[emily47017]

I do know that they asked for money for food, but would not accept food vouchers.

ah, sorry, i missed that detail.