Who are the deserving poor?

[drafdog]

Trader,
To get into YOUR car with YOU would require a great deal of trust on the part of the person in question. How many times have you accepted a ride from an absolute stranger? I probably wouldn’t either.

Vern,
Ah, for a perfect world in which every person who wants to work can find employment. It’s a good thing that the safety net is there for people like me with two college degrees and thirty years of working experience who is experiencing difficulty (again) in finding a new position after my last contract was terminated. That’s right, folks, I’m on unemployment which means eating without working.

Matthew

 

[Sixtus]

posted:

Sometimes it is difficult indeed. I am reminded of the woman found dead at the bus stop in front of HHS during the Clinton Administration. Henry Cisneros, the Secretary of HHS, took it very hard. But it transpired the woman had a wallet on a string around her neck – containing several hundred dollars and a ticket for that night at a woman’s shelter. And she also had a loving family who were out looking for her.

 

[Sixtus]

In my experience when we love as a person, they are receptive to natural love of humanity. when we love as a Christian, they are receptive to the supernatural love of God

 

[jman507]

In my experience when we love as a person, they are receptive to natural love of humanity. when we love as a Christian, they are receptive to the supernatural love of God

When it comes to who are the deserving poor, when it comes to things such as monetary assistance via a government program, part of the problem is there is no love there. Things that allow one on one assistance where you have someone to discern what a person needs is much better. It might not do any good and possibly harm, if huge programs are set up, that give assistance, but are not able to call others, as well as the recipiants (at least to a level that can be handled), to responsiblity.

 

[Sixtus]

When it comes to who are the deserving poor, when it comes to things such as monetary assistance via a government program, part of the problem is there is no love there. Things that allow one on one assistance where you have someone to discern what a person needs is much better. It might not do any good and possibly harm, if huge programs are set up, that give assistance, but are not able to call others, as well as the recipiants (at least to a level that can be handled), to responsiblity.

We are called only to love and bring love into the many situations we meet in life.

Where there is love there is God’s healing presence

 

[vern_humphrey]

Vern,
Ah, for a perfect world in which every person who wants to work can find employment. It’s a good thing that the safety net is there for people like me with two college degrees and thirty years of working experience who is experiencing difficulty (again) in finding a new position after my last contract was terminated. That’s right, folks, I’m on unemployment which means eating without working.

Matthew

First, I pray for you – I hope you get a job soon.

Currently, unemployment is running below 5% in this country, which economists call “full employment.” There are so many jobs in this country that people are actually sneaking across the border to take them – some 10 to 12 million illegal aliens have found work in this country, according to best estimates.

 

[vern_humphrey]

She did NOT chose option D. It was the most rational to her in what appears a state of complete apathy. That is not a free choice but a circumstantial one. Love helps people value themselves which lifts depression which THEN ENABLES informed choices to be made.

You miss the point entirely. No one said her choice was rational – but even you agree that she did make it.

And there was plenty of love – did you miss the part that she had a family that was out looking for her?

 

[Bennie_P]

First, I pray for you – I hope you get a job soon.

Currently, unemployment is running below 5% in this country, which economists call “full employment.” There are so many jobs in this country that people are actually sneaking across the border to take them – some 10 to 12 million illegal aliens have found work in this country, according to best estimates.

Vern, be careful using unemployment stats, there are probobly another 5 % or more not even counted for various reasons. Myself I’ve been unemployed since the end of June, but I know that I’m not counted, for I never applied for unemployment insurance, nor have I registered at the state emplyoment office. There are many different reeasons why people don’t work or are unable to find employment, it is not always by choice. Some are just unemployable, no skills, health problems, disabilities etc. and others that are employable are not considered “good” candidates for many of the postions advertised, under or overquailified, too young, too old, not available for times need, etc and etc.

Though I think I have a job lined up, myself I have to put in a lot of factors in before accepting a position, I cannot take any positon that will not bring more money into the family budget as to the cost of accepting employment, such as the cost of transportation to get my wife to work(she is unable to drive), get my kids to school, child-care cost, and I have to be able to attend one of the three masses with my family on the weekend. Then there are jobs that I cannot accept for moral reasons.

I’m blessed, my wife is employed and I have little leave way in my choices. We are not on welfare or any other government assistance program.

As to the welfare system, it is really messed up and it has been from the beginning. Because of worries about people might abuse it, they put in measures in the beginning that produced the welfare “cycle” of generational welfare, by having such restrictions of not giving assitances to families as a whole. by not factoring in employment cycles, skill levels, education, training, etc. they excluded able-body men out of the system. Families with children would only be able to get assitance as long as men left or abandoned their wives and families. This had a devastating affect on low income, low skill, working class famlies. It has totally destroyed family stability in low income sectors of the country, most evident, but not exclusive, in the African-American community. The result - less marriages, more fatherless families and more reliance on the welfare system.

Though the examples given on other post about abuses of the welfare system are really bad, what happens when we put our focus on those failures, and we try to weed them out, we continue to put hurdles up for the deserving poor and put them in jeopordy. The abusers are really an exception. The abusers will find ways to milk to the system as long as we have a welfare system. Short of eliminating the system, IMHO,we should spend more time concentrating, on how to strengthen the family and promote marriage and responsible fatherhood. My thoughts.

 

[boppaid]

First, I pray for you – I hope you get a job soon.

Currently, unemployment is running below 5% in this country, which economists call “full employment.” There are so many jobs in this country that people are actually sneaking across the border to take them – some 10 to 12 million illegal aliens have found work in this country, according to best estimates.

The only problem w/ unemployment rates is that once someone has been on unemployment insurance for so long that they are no longer eligible (6 months), then their name drops off the “unemployment” list. When these numbers of “unemployed” are reported for statistics, they are inaccurate because people are still unemployed, but no longer eligible to receive benefits. After 9/11, but husband was laid off for almost a year. 6 months after receiving benefits, he was dropped (ineligible), yet still not employed. HOWEVER, he was no longer “counted” as unemployed in the stats. Very tricky and deceiving, imo. (Not you, I mean the system.)

 

[vern_humphrey]

The only problem w/ unemployment rates is that once someone has been on unemployment insurance for so long that they are no longer eligible (6 months), then their name drops off the “unemployment” list. When these numbers of “unemployed” are reported for statistics, they are inaccurate because people are still unemployed, but no longer eligible to receive benefits. After 9/11, but husband was laid off for almost a year. 6 months after receiving benefits, he was dropped (ineligible), yet still not employed. HOWEVER, he was no longer “counted” as unemployed in the stats. Very tricky and deceiving, imo. (Not you, I mean the system.)

That’s all true – but we are still able to use the statistics, since they remain stable in their standards. And economists agree that 5% is “full” employment. And, as I said, we have 10 to 12 million aliens also employed in this country.

Now, does that mean everyone can get the job he or she wants? No. I suspect most of us, if we could choose a career would chose something other than what we presently do.

Some times you have to move to get a job – or be willing to work in some nasty, cold, hot, or otherwise undesirable places.

 

[boppaid]

That’s all true – but we are still able to use the statistics, since they remain stable in their standards. And economists agree that 5% is “full” employment.

I do agree w/ what you are saying to some degree. The only thing is, though, that we had a HUGE unemployment boom after 9/11. Then, the number dropped considerably, and the President announced “unemployment is the lowest since 9/11” at some point. Um, no, it was actually higher if you figure that all the people on UE for 6 mos were dropped (many) and many new people signed up. I was shocked at the time.

 

[RobHom]

I’d like to meet that HS Grad that makes $41,000+,

I can affirm to you that in fact many HS Grads do in fact make well in excess of $41,000.00 a year. One has but to look at the countries highways and byways. American Over-the Road Professional Truck Drivers with a year or two of experience do in fact exceed $41K per annum. I am a Professional Driver…and I do quite well. I am educated well beyond HS, but in my company…pay is not based upon education, but qualifications.

A first year Professional Driver, regardless of educational level can expect to exceed $31K to $35K in their first year.

Maybe, some of the lower wage earners could be retrained as Drivers…thus elevating their earnings potentials. The job has drawbacks, like any, but the Fed says there is a shortage of drivers, so its a possible option.

Maybe some charitable persons or organizations could fund their training…and open the door to better financial well being for these people.

 

[whatevergirl]

Saint Paul tells us who will not work, neither shall he eat. He tells us only real widows should be supported by the Church – women over 60 with no families to support them.

Whoever *will not *work–not those who are struggling to put food on the table, and need assistance. In other words, if you’re just plain old lazy…

 

[Sixtus]

Whatevergirl posted:

Whoever will not work–not those who are struggling to put food on the table, and need assistance. In other words, if you’re just plain old lazy…

While I am inclined to agree, there are reasons not extant such as Chronic Fategue Sydrome, where there is little or no evidence of a problem. Someone with this conditon who tries to force themselves to work become sick and often go to sleep while performing whatever it is they are doing. That then have health and safety implications for others.

Some do not possess the basic skills to get employment while others lack opportunity. So there are other factors which need taking into account before condemning someone as lazy.

 

[whatevergirl]

Whatevergirl posted:

While I am inclined to agree, there are reasons not extant such as Chronic Fategue Sydrome, where there is little or no evidence of a problem. Someone with this conditon who tries to force themselves to work become sick and often go to sleep while performing whatever it is they are doing. That then have health and safety implications for others.

Some do not possess the basic skills to get employment while others lack opportunity. So there are other factors which need taking into account before condemning someone as lazy.

Although, I didn’t state that…I implied that, I think. I agree with you totally.

 

[whatevergirl]

Whatevergirl posted:

While I am inclined to agree, there are reasons not extant such as Chronic Fategue Sydrome, where there is little or no evidence of a problem. Someone with this conditon who tries to force themselves to work become sick and often go to sleep while performing whatever it is they are doing. That then have health and safety implications for others.

Some do not possess the basic skills to get employment while others lack opportunity. So there are other factors which need taking into account before condemning someone as lazy.

Oh…and I don’t condemn or label people. I’m merely stating what St Paul was most likely inferring. He wasn’t inferring if someone is sick or incapable of working…then he/she shouldn’t eat. No…he meant basically, if you*** choose ***not to work…then, you shouldn’t eat.

 

[scarlet405]

I can affirm to you that in fact many HS Grads do in fact make well in excess of $41,000.00 a year. One has but to look at the countries highways and byways. American Over-the Road Professional Truck Drivers with a year or two of experience do in fact exceed $41K per annum. I am a Professional Driver…and I do quite well. I am educated well beyond HS, but in my company…pay is not based upon education, but qualifications.

A first year Professional Driver, regardless of educational level can expect to exceed $31K to $35K in their first year.

.

First let me say, forgive me I am a little behind in this thread. I have been out of state visiting my son.

I do agree with all of this, and really can only say I was so excited about my trip that I couldn’t think properly. We have truck drivers and coal miners… in our family, and I know they work very hard and that it is based on qualifications and experience, not education. These are not deserving poor.

I will have to look back, I believe that I was in a debate about the cost of education, what is being taught, teachers… and what it would take to decrease the drop out rate. If the drop out rate is lowered, that helps take care of some of the poor because they have more education. We were trying debating the best way to reduce the deserving poor, into the able worker.

 

[scarlet405]

QUOTE]=vern humphrey;2524091]While I realize you may not be reading this, I have a question – are your standards product-oriented, or process-oriented?

Product-oriented standards don’t pay a lot of attention to methodology, and instead focus on outcome. Process-oriented standards, on the other hand, don’t pay a lot of attention to what is being done, and concentrate on how it is done.

And how are the results checked?

We have both product and process for both the teacher and the student. “The ideal” is to be a teacher who knows how to teach and how to get results. The student would be learning and showing that improvement, but at the same time if taught correctly continue to be curious and want to learn more. These students will eventually work on their own to discover new things, “free thinkers”.

Off-site you have both systems experts and subject matter experts. So if the system isn’t working as it should, there is someone to contact, and if the student has a subject matter question, there is also someone to contact./COLOR]QUOTE]

Sounds a little “cold” to me, not bad, just cold. Now this is coming from a FIRST grade teacher, where students NEED more hands-on. This would probably be GREAT for HS.

Did I point out that in the private sector, the training and education industry averages about 100% burden rate? That means for each dollar the teacher gets, the company must get two dollars – the extra dollar pays for administrative expenses, equipment, rent, heat, light, and so on – and profit.

Now if each teacher has 25 students

,
The first part sounds ideal, I still have problems picturing it working. I however am a “hands-on” type person, and more visual. I would like to see a sample population, that is successful before I could really make a decision.

25 Students per teacher is WAY OVER THE LIMIT for K-3. That # would have to be reduced. It is recommended 14 for K-1, 18 for 2-3, and NEVER more than 18

Okay – what is your per-pupil expenditure in your state? And what is the average teacher salary.

Per pupil expenditure varies from year to year, and also varies from school systems. I would have to pull up my school report from last year to get that info, and I will try.

Now the average first year teacher makes $26,000.00 now, I believe. I would have to look that up also as it varies again like before.

We have a very “goofy” tax system, and some school systems get considerably more than others, based on taxes, property tax, alcohol sales, tobacco (alcohol is not available in all counties and those who do not sell it, like mine, do not get the monetary benefit).

Now I realize this looks a little goofy. I just got in a few hours ago and have jet lag. I could fix it, but my brain cells are over taxed tonight. Sorry.

 

[scarlet405]

…Now an alternate translation of you question would be that you accuse these hardworking women of “absentee parenting.” That’s both unChristian and untrue.

I really feel that we understand “absentee parenting” in the same way. I am not talking about those who are trying to better themselves. I am talking about a parent who will put a child in front of the TV and never supervise, a parent who doesn’t read to their child, a parent who doesn’t take just 30 mins. a day and talk to their child, a parent who puts EVERYTHING IN LIFE ahead of their child.

I know women and MEN, who have worked and finished school while taking care of young ones, even teens. I have seen the struggles, but I have also seen the bonding. This is NOT absentee parenting, but its opposite – Parenting at its BEST.

 

[scarlet405]

While I realize you may not be reading this, I have a question – are your standards product-oriented, or process-oriented?..It looks like it must be substantially over 100% – which is what one would expect in a non-competitive system.

I have reread your last few posts, and am beginning to understand what you are talking about and how to implement it. I still see difficulties here, but that may be because I have been in the public school system for quite some time. I can see with your business background how you can actually visualize this working.

I think about people living in the mountains and states where there is a tiny school with about 120 students, and just cannot see how this system would help them. There may not be another school around for more than 100 miles, it is possible. What happens to these students? I cannot see that they would have much of a chance at getting another choice of school to attend.

Can this system work for them?