Who are the deserving poor?

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The phraseology you’re using seems to come from the Wikipedia article on the subject – which also indicates some economists consider “full employment” to be a point or two higher than 5%.
No, no Wikipedia involved. However, yes 6% or so was what was presumed to be the lowest that employment could be at without runway inflation. We now know those theories are bogus.
What’s your point?
The principle point is that employment does not appear to be following any other commodity market. Otherwise, wages would have started to soar. They have remained flat, actually declining as employment peaked.
“Hopelessly flawed” in respect to what?
Not my theory. Presumably they believe that too many people fall out of, or never enter the workforce. If the number is artificially low, then wages could still be tracking supply and demand. There are also accusations of changes in statistical practices, but I have seen no evidence of that.
Let me see, the ability to have Chinese do the job at $0.35 an hour means more Americans are employed?
Again, not my theory, but the latest labor statistics actual give some credence to this. Put simply, the limiting factor on wages is the convenience point at which the job moves off shore. Since wages are held down, more people work multiple jobs and more family members work (which we actual do see in the most recent numbers). This results in high employement rates with no corresponding market pressure on wages, which is the phenomena we have now.

The actual theories are more complicated. They factor in things like the current negative savings rate, which also helps cut job mobility. But you get the basic idea.

Again you ask the point. The second point is that things are great if you are, say, a defense contract CEO (pay has gone up about 700%). But the unemployment rate has yet to generate much joy on main street.
 
I can’t recall a single thing that Jesus taught regarding the notion that we lay our “demands” on the poor. Am I mistaken? Has my memory failed me?
When he told the woman caught in adultery that he did not condemn her, he also told her to avoid that sin in the future. If you missed that detail, you missed a lot.
 
When he told the woman caught in adultery that he did not condemn her, he also told her to avoid that sin in the future. If you missed that detail, you missed a lot.
Apples and oranges - and quite pathetic. It’s very frightening too.

Are you equating sinfulness with POVERTY???

That’s an entirely new - and unacceptable - notion to me.
 
Apples and oranges - and quite pathetic. It’s very frightening too.

Are you equating sinfulness with POVERTY???

That’s an entirely new - and unacceptable - notion to me.
What I said is that the choice to disrepect marriage is the number one cause of poverty in America.

If the number of divorces and out of wedlock births were to decrease by half, do you think that the poverty rate would:

a) increase
b) decrease
c) stay the same–Strong families are irrelevant to poverty.
 
What I said is that the choice to disrepect marriage is the number one cause of poverty in America.

If the number of divorces and out of wedlock births were to decrease by half, do you think that the poverty rate would:

a) increase
b) decrease
c) stay the same–Strong families are irrelevant to poverty.
So your apparent conclusion is that children in poverty who are there as a result of unmarried parents are children who are undeserving. Your logic would lead to that conclusion.

Hmmmmmmm … Really?
 
So your apparent conclusion is that children in poverty who are there as a result of unmarried parents are children who are undeserving. Your logic would lead to that conclusion.

Hmmmmmmm … Really?
That is not even close to what I think. The children of people who choose to disrespect marriage are victims of their parents immoral choices. Even civil law requires parents to support their children, and failure to do so can carry criminal sanctions. The best outcome for children is for the parents to honor their obligation to their children. Among the most important of those obligations is the duty to provide their children with a good example.

Throughout the Bible the analogy of God’s love for us is the parents’ love for for their children. Isaih ch 49, asks “Can a mother forget her baby, or a woman the child within her womb?”
That was a few thousand years before any woman would choose cocaine over her child.

And of course, Jesus taught us to pray to our Father. I know of people who find that very difficult to do when they have been raped by their father, step-father, or mom’s live-in boyfriend.

Those children need our help, but the most effective help for them is to hold the parents accountable for their own choices, and to demand they change their destructive behavior.

This all seems so obvious to me that I have a hard time understanding your objection.
 
Those children need our help, but the most effective help for them is to hold the parents accountable for their own choices, and to demand they change their destructive behavior.

This all seems so obvious to me that I have a hard time understanding your objection.
The idea that charity to the poor should rest on the recipients’ cooperation with our demands (society’s values) seems to me only a few steps short of many other demands, such as the demand for government-sanctioned abortion. (Govt-sanctioned sterilization is not in our long-ago history; it was recent.)

Jesus fed the poor - without interrogating them or exacting promises of moral cooperation from them. To be hungry on a routine basis is to be incapable of willed conformity. So, no surprise, I can’t imagine your notion of conditional charity.
 
The idea that charity to the poor should rest on the recipients’ cooperation with our demands (society’s values) seems to me only a few steps short of many other demands, such as the demand for government-sanctioned abortion. (Govt-sanctioned sterilization is not in our long-ago history; it was recent.)

Jesus fed the poor - without interrogating them or exacting promises of moral cooperation from them. To be hungry on a routine basis is to be incapable of willed conformity. So, no surprise, I can’t imagine your notion of conditional charity.
Love is given. There is no price to pay. If there was a price it would cease to be love.

Perfect love to which we are all called but some of us sadly often fail, is as St Aquinas said: ‘giving and not counting the cost’. Oh if I could love that much, sadly I do not. But realising my limitations give what I can.

Love must be unconditional else it just is not love.
 
Love is given. There is no price to pay. If there was a price it would cease to be love.

Perfect love to which we are all called but some of us sadly often fail, is as St Aquinas said: ‘giving and not counting the cost’. Oh if I could love that much, sadly I do not. But realising my limitations give what I can.

Love must be unconditional else it just is not love.
Yes, Sixtus and thank you for your statement.
 
Those children need our help, but the most effective help for them is to hold the parents accountable for their own choices, and to demand they change their destructive behavior.
I agree with your theory. But I wonder, in the meantime, how do we ensure that they are properly fed, clothed, and have medical care while we hold the parents accountable?
 
No, no Wikipedia involved. However, yes 6% or so was what was presumed to be the lowest that employment could be at without runway inflation. We now know those theories are bogus.
What “theories” are you talking about, and how are they “bogus?”
The principle point is that employment does not appear to be following any other commodity market. Otherwise, wages would have started to soar. They have remained flat, actually declining as employment peaked.
And how does that relate to this discussion?
Not my theory. Presumably they believe that too many people fall out of, or never enter the workforce. If the number is artificially low, then wages could still be tracking supply and demand. There are also accusations of changes in statistical practices, but I have seen no evidence of that.
And how does that relate to this discussion?
Again, not my theory, but the latest labor statistics actual give some credence to this. Put simply, the limiting factor on wages is the convenience point at which the job moves off shore. Since wages are held down, more people work multiple jobs and more family members work (which we actual do see in the most recent numbers). This results in high employement rates with no corresponding market pressure on wages, which is the phenomena we have now.
And how does that relate to this discussion?
The actual theories are more complicated. They factor in things like the current negative savings rate, which also helps cut job mobility. But you get the basic idea.
I get the idea you’re off point.
Again you ask the point. The second point is that things are great if you are, say, a defense contract CEO (pay has gone up about 700%). But the unemployment rate has yet to generate much joy on main street.
And how does that relate to this discussion?

If you want to wander afield like this, you should start another thread.
 
What “theories” are you talking about, and how are they “bogus?”
I’ve already said, re-read my first post.
And how does that relate to this discussion?
And how does that relate to this discussion?
And how does that relate to this discussion?
I get the idea you’re off point.
And how does that relate to this discussion?
You asserted that jobs are so plentify that millions of immigrants stream across the border to meet the need. However, this is misleading on several fronts. First, the labor market is not currently following the simple rules of supply and demand.

Second, unemployment varies widely from state to state. For example, for a state that relied heavily on domestic manufacturing and steel, like Michigan, it is running over 7% at the state level and 10-15% in some counties.

Third, since you broached the concept of ‘full employement’, it seems worth investigating. We know, from historical levels that true full employment is down at about 2%. However, we attempt to use monetary policy to keep inflation in check - holding unemployment to about 5-6% - since it was believed that wages would soar, driving inflation. This means that, for the common good, we have kept the unemployment rate a few points higher than it would achieve in unregulated economic peaks.

Rather their sacrifice is voluntary or not, the folks impacted by this national policy for the common good would seem to be “deserving poor”.
 
Without subjecting myself to an in-depth research project regarding the historical notion of “the deserving poor,” I simply googled it. As I’d vaguely remebered, the notion of “the deserving poor” (as opposed to the pre-existing notion of “the poor”) seems to have come about in Elizabethan Englad as a part of England’s break with the Roman Catholic Church. A very brief exposition can be found at this link:

72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:tRq3ds8ihfkJ:www.elizabethan-era.org.uk/the-poor-law.htm+%22the+deserving+poor%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us&ie=UTF-8
 
I work in Washington, DC. On Pennsylvania Avenue, half way between the White House and the Capitol. And, each day, walking to and from the office, I pass the homeless and beggers. In the shadow of the Capitol of the richest nation in the world. Some are into drugs or alcohol, some are down on their luck, some are mentally or physically handicapped, and some are clever bums and con artists.

I always pray silently for them as I walk by, always respond to any who ask for money – even if it is just to say, “no, I can’t; but you take care” – and give what I am comfortable giving, when I can.

One day, I put a dollar in someone’s hand and a hard voice behind me said, “Why would you do that?” I turned to a well-dressed woman (who seemed to have no problem addressing a stranger’s choice in what to do with her own money) and said, “I beg your pardon.?”

“He’ll just use it for drugs or something,” she sad curtly.

“That’s not my problem,” I said. “My God calls me to give; what the person does with it is their choice.”

I guess that’s how I feel. I give as if it was Lazarus who is seeking my help. And, if it is used for ill, well, I did my part. Better that than to be the rich one in hell pleading with Lazarus, resting on Abraham’s busom. A Jewish friend explained, in his faith tradition, it is taught we are blessed by the presence of those to whom we can show charity. We are the ones being tried and tested . . .
 
To you, IrishAm, I say thanks - and yes I’m IrishAm too.

Now, another link re the notion of the “deserving poor,” this one form the Vincentian Center:

vincenter.org/97/rider.html#IIA

and a partial quote from that link:

"Growth of poverty and changing charity policies

Into the vacuum left by the end of the old social contract, new policies to deal with the poor were developed by upper class women who ran private charities, and politicians, all men, who administered public institutions and outdoor relief (Katz, 1986). The upper classes, political economists, and politicians almost universally believed poverty to be caused by personal failure. Charity was no longer a Christian duty to provide help to those incapable of helping themselves. The result of this work by private charities and politicians was a new social contract which had three facets: incarcerating the poor away from the community, removing children from indigent parents, and exploitation of the labor of the poor.

While there were no federal policies governing charity for the impoverished, there was a strong regional similarity in the new social contract. Throughout the 1820s, New York, Boston, Philadelphia and most counties throughout the northeast exchanged delegations whose sole purpose was to unify local charity policies for both public and private institutions (Rothman, 1971). Josiah Quincy authored a pamphlet in 1821 for the Boston City Council which influenced policies passed throughout the northeast in the 1830s. Quincy opposed the existing charity system which provided some care for people in their homes, and made an almshouse available for the completely destitute. In its place, he proposed a workhouse where labor would be the divining rod separating the deserving from the undeserving poor. His statements make clear that, in his view, there were very few deserving poor, that the impoverished were so through their own personal failings. “The … poor by reason of vice, constitute … probably to a full two thirds of … adult poor … indolence, intemperance, and sensuality, are the great causes of pauperism in this country … all this class can … perform, daily, the complete task of a day laborer.” Quincy included children in the category of undeserving poor with these remarks; “Intimately connected with this topic is that of providing for those idle and vicious children, of both sexes and different ages, which often under the company … of thoughtless and abandoned parents, are found begging in our streets … beginning a system of petty stealing, which terminates often in the penitentiary” (Quincy, 1821). It was from political statements like Quincy’s that the new three-pronged policies were developed.

First, the poor were incarcerated away from the community. Prior to 1800, there were almost no buildings to house the poor and criminal. By the 1830s, every county in the northeast boasted a workhouse, orphanage, jail, or other edifice whose sole purpose was to separate the poor away from the community at large (Katz, 1986). In 1810, Boston had one almshouse, no prison, and a temporary holding facility for criminals. By 1839, there were two work farms, a juvenile jail, several orphanages, a long term prison (whose population averaged 60% male, 40% female through the 1830s), and countless private charities (Boston City Council, 1834-1839).

Second, children were removed from indigent parents. By the 1830s, virtually all poor parents applying for either public or private aid had their children removed and sent to orphanages, juvenile jails, and workhouses (Abramovitz, 1992; Katz, 1986). Most of these children spent less than a year incarcerated before they were indentured out to businesses and farmers (Boston City Council, 1834-1839). The removal of children from indigent parents had two results. One, whether institutionalized or indented out, the children were educated to become part of a docile working class (Katz, 1986). In the absence of their parents, most communities hoped to inculcate solid middle class values (Rothman, 1971). Two, this made the parents’ labor more easily exploited. Women with children who applied for aid deserved charity, only as long as they held to the strict Victorian morality standards in vogue at the time (Abramovitz, 1992). Once the mother was childless, she was no longer deserving of charity and could be forced to take any low wage job. Men in charge of children were simply deemed unfit parents.

Third, the labor of the poor was exploited. Children in institutions either made garments and furniture for sale on the open market, or were hired out as day laborers for wages paid directly to the institutions. They were indentured or apprenticed out for a fee of $100 per contract, which was paid directly to the private or public charity (Boston City Council, 1834-1839)."
 
Thank you. I have to admit, however, to being terribly tempted to quote George Bernard Shaw’s characters in Pygmalion (from whence My Fair Lady came): 😃

Doolittle. Don’t say that Governor. Don’t look aat it that way. What am I Governors both? I ask you, what am I? I’m one of the undeserving poor: that’s what I am. Think of what that means to me as a man. It means that he’s up agen middle class morality all the time. If there’s anything going, and I put in for a bit of it, it’s always the same story: “You’re undeserving; so you can’t have it.” But my needs is as great as the most deserving widow’s that ever got money out of six different charities in one week at the death of the same husband. I don’t need less than a deserving man: I need more. I don" eat less hearty than him,; and I drink a lot more. I want a bit of amusement, cause I’m a thinking man. I want cheerfulness and a song and a band when I feel low. Well, they charge me just the same for everything as they charge the deserving. What is middle class morality? Just an excuse for never giving me anything. Therefore, I ask you, as two gentlemen, not to play that game on me. I’m playing straight with you. I ain’t pretending to be deserving. I’m undeserving; and I mean to go on being undeserving. I like it; and that’s the truth. Will you take advantage of man’s nature to do him out of the price of his own daughter what he’s brought up and fed and clothed by the seat of his brow until she’s growed big enough to be interesting to you two gentleman? Is five pounds unreasonable? I put it to you; and I leave it to you.

Higgins [rising, and going over to Pickering] Pickering: if we were to take this man in hand for three months, he could choose between a seat in the Cabinet and a popular pulpit in Wales.

Pickering. What do you say to that, Doolittle?

Doolittle. Not me, Governor, thank you kindly. I’ve heard all the preachers and all the prime ministers - for I’m a thinking man and game for politics or religion or social reform same as all other amusements - and I tell you it’s a dog’s life any way you look at it. Undeserving poverty is my line. Taking one station in society with another, it’s - it’s - well, it’s the only one that has any ginger in it, to my taste.
 
Thank you. I have to admit, however, to being terribly tempted to quote George Bernard Shaw’s characters in Pygmalion (from whence My Fair Lady came): 😃

Doolittle. Don’t say that Governor. Don’t look aat it that way. What am I Governors both? I ask you, what am I? I’m one of the undeserving poor: that’s what I am. Think of what that means to me as a man. It means that he’s up agen middle class morality all the time. If there’s anything going, and I put in for a bit of it, it’s always the same story: “You’re undeserving; so you can’t have it.” But my needs is as great as the most deserving widow’s that ever got money out of six different charities in one week at the death of the same husband. I don’t need less than a deserving man: I need more. I don" eat less hearty than him,; and I drink a lot more. I want a bit of amusement, cause I’m a thinking man. I want cheerfulness and a song and a band when I feel low. Well, they charge me just the same for everything as they charge the deserving. What is middle class morality? Just an excuse for never giving me anything. Therefore, I ask you, as two gentlemen, not to play that game on me. I’m playing straight with you. I ain’t pretending to be deserving. I’m undeserving; and I mean to go on being undeserving. I like it; and that’s the truth. Will you take advantage of man’s nature to do him out of the price of his own daughter what he’s brought up and fed and clothed by the seat of his brow until she’s growed big enough to be interesting to you two gentleman? Is five pounds unreasonable? I put it to you; and I leave it to you.

Higgins [rising, and going over to Pickering] Pickering: if we were to take this man in hand for three months, he could choose between a seat in the Cabinet and a popular pulpit in Wales.

Pickering. What do you say to that, Doolittle?

Doolittle. Not me, Governor, thank you kindly. I’ve heard all the preachers and all the prime ministers - for I’m a thinking man and game for politics or religion or social reform same as all other amusements - and I tell you it’s a dog’s life any way you look at it. Undeserving poverty is my line. Taking one station in society with another, it’s - it’s - well, it’s the only one that has any ginger in it, to my taste.
Poor Pickering, poor Doolittle, poor Higgins - actually more to the point, poor GB Shaw, subjected to the history of centuries of England’s renowned “reformation” Poor Laws.
 
We know, from historical levels that true full employment is down at about 2%.
Who knows that full employment is 2%? I happen to be an economist, and you are the first one I have heard suggest that 2% is full employment. If you can provide a citation for your hypothesis that would be quite helpful.

Thanks.
 
Who knows that full employment is 2%? I happen to be an economist, and you are the first one I have heard suggest that 2% is full employment. If you can provide a citation for your hypothesis that would be quite helpful.

Thanks.
Don’t go down this road – it’s just a ploy to pull the thread off track.
 
On the one hand, people with the means to do so have the obligation to contribute to the support of the poor.

On the other hand, if the government TAKES money by force from the citizenry, massages the money and takes some huge percentage for “administration” and gives a pittance to the poor, then is that the moral equivalent of “giving to the poor”?
 
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