G
guanophore
Guest
I Think it is better to give cash to organized programs and give zip lock bags of food or hygiene supplies to the people on the street.
- Status
V
vern_humphrey
Guest
I agree – if you give directly, give food or clothing, not cash.
Of course Everet Koop, the former Surgeon General once said, “Give them what they want, for Heaven’s. So what if they use it on drugs or alcohol? That’s the only comfort they have.”
I’m not sure I agree with that, but it’s an interesting perspective.
S
Sixtus
Guest
Other ‘deserving poor’ are the athiests who have contributed to this forum - See 'Atheism and the Church.
Surely these poor impoverished and ‘malnourshised - starving’ individuals are also precious to our unfathomable awesome all loving Almighty God.
Should we not pray for them and pray hard for an end to their povetry and misery?
Surely these poor impoverished and ‘malnourshised - starving’ individuals are also precious to our unfathomable awesome all loving Almighty God.
Should we not pray for them and pray hard for an end to their povetry and misery?
T
Trader
Guest
I left this one alone for a long time because my first reaction was not very nice. I wanted to pray over it.
First, I do not see the connection between respect for marriage and forced abortion and sterilization. They are not a few steps apart, they are barely in the same universe.
Second, where did you get the notion that Jesus went around feeding the poor? Was he a social worker setting up soup kitchens and homeless shelters? The only times I recall him feeding anyone was in John 6 when he fed the multitude and saw most of them leave when he told them they must eat his body and drink his blood or they would have no life in them(a kind of demand). The other time was at he Last Supper when he fed only a few of his friends. He gave them a demand there too, “Do this in memory of me.”
I don’t want to analyze you on the limited basis of what I know about you. Maybe you just don’t like the word 'demand". Would “commandment” be better? Those did not come from me, they came from God. Properly understood the only commandment that matters is, “Love one another as I have loved you.”
I am not sure why you or any Catholic would find the connection between sin and poverty “new.” All poverty is the result of sin. So is ilness, death and other suffering on earth. Without sin we are all living in Eden where the poverty rate was zero.
The particular cause of poverty is frequently sin. Some poverty is caused by the sin of racism, some by the sin of greed. I am only guessing, but I believe you would “demand” that someone causing poverty by racist acts should stop. Why would you feel differently about poverty caused by the sin of adultery or fornication?
The “demand”, or commandment if you prefer, to stop destructive behavior is not a barrier to providing help to anyone. In many cases IT IS THE HELP REQUIRED. Suppose a person is poor because he spends all his money on illegal drugs. If caught early enough that person can be lifted from poverty simply by stopping the drug use.
C
catharina
Guest
I prayed for you at Mass today and for a few other posters too.
Connection between insisting on marriage to qualify for benefits as “deserving poor” and that seems to be your demand would almost insure that in this country at this time, there would many more aqbortions - and sterilization laws might be not far behind to protect the public pennies that go to abortion.
I have no notion taht Jesus went around feeding the poor. Yet we are told He fed 5000 stangers. Surly you don’t imagine the 5000 were His nearest and dearest and properly codified as families according to civil or Divine law, do you? (Perhaps you do.) I’m equally certain that Jesus fed others even after His resurrection when He appeared to disciples who were having a “bad fishing day.” He fed them breakfast. (See John 21:12)
More importantly, He said that we are to feed the poor, welcome the stranger, shelter the homeless and more … (se Matthew 25: 31 and ongoing)
Should I ever assess the poor as having found poverty poor due to their sinfulness? I pray to God that I will never pass such judgment!
S
SoCalRC
Guest
2% is the lowest historical metrics we have for unemployment, as I noted in the orignal post (see www.statistics.gov.uk for raw data). Based on this, British Economist William Beveridge theorized that full employment was just under 3%. Some of his peers placed it lower.
Just how low the figure could theoretically be driven to, I do not know. But the point was not what the absolute point is, but that theories like “NAIRU” are proving to not stand up to the last two decades of imperical data.
More specifically, look at the context. Vern stated he would pray that a poster looking for a job would find one, but then noted that unemployment rate is very low and millions of illegals are finding jobs…
It seemed worth pointing out that, regardless of what one may here on, say, Fox news, the labor market still appears to be quite soft. Wages are in their first three year stagnant stretch since WWII. So, either we are not at ‘full employment’ or something is artificially holding wages down.
And, as noted, the whole concept of NAIRU, and monetary policy for the common good that holds unemployment up even a few points, raises the question of societal responsibily to our weakest members.
On a bright note, since you are an economist perhaps you could take a moment and explain the relationship between a negative savings rate and the effectiveness (or a decade of demonstrated lack thereof) of medical savings accounts as they relate to the nation’s 48+ million uninsured.
T
Trader
Guest
One of my favorite charities are the Catholic family homeless shelters here in Fort Wayne and Indianapolis. They take in women with children for several weeks or months. They offer a lot more help than housing. They offer parenting classes, help with budgeting, and even cooking classes. They also make “demands” of program participants. They can’t have their boyfriends sleep over, and they can’t bring drugs or alcohol with them. If they have not finished high school they get help to do that. If they break the rules, they have to leave. Would you expect less from a Catholic program? They can only offer this kind of help for a few families at a time, and they cannot allow those who follow the rules to be endangered by those who won’t. The goals of the program go way beyond temporary food and shelter. They are trying to break the cycle of poverty that comes from the disrespect for marriage.
The typical government program costs a lot more and accomplishes less. There are housing vouchers, food stamps, cash assistance, and an overworked social worker stops in once in a while. There are very few requirements enforced, although there may be prohibition on having other people live there and drug possession would violate the lease. This system gives us neighborhoods where the average age for a first time grandparent is 32.
Should you help the poor by helping to end the cause of the problem? Yes.
C
catharina
Guest
Frankly, I have and I still do - but I don’t “blame” them…
As you said, private agencies that are able to enforce such guidelines are only equipped to serve a few families at a time and those families MUST prove to be cooperative.
The desire to change is essential.
I’ll quote myself now: "More importantly, He (Jesus) said that we are to feed the poor, welcome the stranger, shelter the homeless and more … (see Matthew 25: 31 and ongoing)
Should I ever assess the poor as having found poverty due to their sinfulness? I pray to God that I will never pass such judgment!"
T
Trader
Guest
Yes, the desire to change is essential. So what do you do with the mother of three children in public housing with all the benefits described in the last post, who moves in her drug dealing boyfriend?
Ignore the lease violations?
Play catch and release, no consequences but a warning?
Any serious action will harm the children won’t it? Or was it the mother who made the choice to endanger her own children?
C
catharina
Guest
Don’t you understand that such violations have been addressed by social service agencies and by the courts for at least 40 yrs?
Why do you insist otherwise? No one pretends the system works since foster care can fail children as tragically - and that’s the alternative that the “public penny” provides.
V
verdigirl
Guest
I have to wonder if Mother Teresa was asking the poor of Calcutta if they would cooperate while she was feeding them.
C
catharina
Guest
Exactly.
S
SoCalRC
Guest
It might be an Irish Catholic thing. A strong sense of obligation to the poor runs in my family as well. I just can’t walk or drive by either.
I went through a period where I told myself that I could ignore pan handlers and just focus on things like Fish and Loaves or homeless shelters, but then I made eye contact walking from the red line to my old office in downtown LA.
V
verdigirl
Guest
I’m having a lot of trouble with your post…it’s very unsettling to me.
This sounds too much like a “sins of the father” situation. We know that a significant number of the poor and “working poor” in our country are children. And yet, you’re saying that sin is the reason why people are poor.
Do you mean to say that certain children have sinned, and so consequently are poor as a result?
T
Trader
Guest
I was referring to original sin which is defined doctrine of the Catholic Church. There was no poverty, sickness or death before that.
The sins which are the particular causes of poverty in today’s world include racism, greed, and adultery and fornication. They are not sins of children, they are sins of adults. It is the adults who harm their own and other’s children by their own sinful choices.
Do you really think that in a country with so many opportunities the majority of the poor got that way in some kind of cosmic lottery?
I am emphatically not saying that people are poor because God is punishing them for their sins. That theory is unscriptural, unchristian, and untrue.
What I am saying is that a lot of US poverty is the natural consequence of sinful behavior. Suppose I had a study that showed people with three or more felony convictions had significantly lower lifetime income than those with no convictions. Do you have any reason to doubt that conclusion? Would you want equal outcomes for such unequal choices?
Now for the easiest question you get today–easier than paper or plastic. Consider two groups of people:
Group One finishes school, shuns drug use, gets a job, gets married, has children and stays married.
Group Two quits school, does drugs, has children, does not get a job, does not get married, or gets married and divorced.
Which group will have the higher poverty rate? Is this choice or chance? I NEVER said it was the choice of the children. To draw that conclusion is ridiculous, although I have heard of adults accused of child abuse who blamed the children.
C
catharina
Guest
… and yet you still sound profoundly judgmental. You must know that children in poverty are born into neighborhoods where the educational system is usally inferior, where there can be chronic shortages of pencils/paper and books and safe places to study, where hunger is a reality on a daily basis. If parents were raised in the same circumstances it’s hard to imagine a change in outcome for any generation. You continue to say sin causes personal poverty yet catastrophic illness, job loss and inferior education might be more impoverishing for many.
Yes, exceptions occur but they are exceptions. Our mandate is to feed the hungry, etc.; it is not to parse who might be deserving of our gifts acc to some imaginary notion of whose parents have sinned or not sinned. If our parents have taught us to give always, they have served us well. Love God, love our neighbor. Expect to find God in everyone; He loves us (and our parents) equally.
T
Trader
Guest
We are getting closer, except that you are calling them exceptions. How do we get at the causes of poverty if you are not willing to acknowledge them?
In fact, there has been a change from generation to generation. The divorce rate and the rate of out of wedlock births have gone UP. This has happened where many people deny the very existence of sin. Millions of parents are failing in their duty to provide a stable, loving family for their children. They put their own wants ahead of their children’s needs. Are you telling them that is OK because it is really everyone else’s duty to support them?
S
Sixtus
Guest
catharina;2763528 said:
.
Not only that, but poorer schools do not attract ambitious talented teachers. On the contrary, they gravitate towards schools where the pay and conditions are better and there are fewer problems that are usually associated with poverty.
Poor schools either attract teachers who are committed to working in this specialist area - which is rare or it attracts poor quality untalented educators who cannot find employment anywhere else
Sadly parents in poverty often become apathetic as a response to the hopelessness of their economic condition and through depression arising from the inability to rectify it, accept it. This ‘belief’ is then passed on to the next [and successive generations].
I have heard folk say: ‘we can’t do maths, it does not run in our family!’ What is really going on is that the school they attended was insensitive to their particular style of learning. Find the students preferred learning style and you can teach them to excel in any subject. No-one is born with a natural predisposition to be ‘thick’ or ‘stupid’.
In UK kids at private schools costing £3000 a term excel, getting the highest grades possible. At the better state schools they do not do so well but still do much better than the poorer schools. That illustrates that ‘brains are brains’; it is not ‘how much you have’ but ‘how much you can affort to pay’ that determines success!’
Lack of opportunity is the single biggest cause of poverty. After that comes neighbourhood cultural and sub-cultural values of educational achievement, expectations etc etc, then personal problems of drug addiction etc. Many poor people do not drink, take drugs, gamble or live immoral lives yet they are still poor.
AMEN
Our mandate is also a commandment of the Lord that ‘we love one another’
No-where did Our Lord say: ‘providing they live moral lives, live according to your value system. No, the Lord did not say that. He simply said: This is my commandment to you that you love one another!’ Jn15:17
Amen
The deserving poor are: anyone of any nationality, religious belief or none, rich or poor who are in need of our love and we are in a position to love them. That is our solemn duty as Christians. It simply not given for us to judge. Discern by all means but not judge, for the Lord said 'Judge not and you shall not be judged!'Mt 7:1 -2.
Of the worthiness of the deserving poor, the Lord goes further to say that ‘the measure we deal out is exactly the measure we shall in our need receive!’
J
johnlal
Guest
Don’t want to give anybody a handout? Still want to be charitable? Kiva makes loans to needy individuals. You can send $25 loans to help people in other countries to generate income. They will borrow “micro-loans” to buy sewing machines, to help their agricultural enterprises, to add to inventory, etc. They have to pay this money back, in full. So those of you who don’t want to give a handout, you should check this program out. It will make you feel better.
kiva.org/app.php?page=register&_isc=8152fb3a-bda4-102a-a2d3-476a410556a2
kiva.org/app.php?page=register&_isc=8152fb3a-bda4-102a-a2d3-476a410556a2
C
catharina
Guest
Today’s beautiful Gospel speaks to the needs of the poor and the duties of all toward them.
The priest who preached at the Mass I attended this morning, pointed out carefully that at the time of Christ, all of the poor were considered to be “guilty” of poverty due to personal sin. Jesus provided a revelation to the thinking on that issue.
“Luke 16
19
“There was a rich man who dressed in purple garments and fine linen and dined sumptuously each day.
20
And lying at his door was a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores,
21
who would gladly have eaten his fill of the scraps that fell from the rich man’s table. Dogs even used to come and lick his sores.
22
When the poor man died, he was carried away by angels to the bosom of Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried,
23
and from the netherworld, where he was in torment, he raised his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
24
And he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me. Send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am suffering torment in these flames.’
25
Abraham replied, ‘My child, remember that you received what was good during your lifetime while Lazarus likewise received what was bad; but now he is comforted here, whereas you are tormented.
26
Moreover, between us and you a great chasm is established to prevent anyone from crossing who might wish to go from our side to yours or from your side to ours.’
27
He said, ‘Then I beg you, father, send him to my father’s house,
28
for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they too come to this place of torment.’
29
But Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the prophets. Let them listen to them.’
30
15 He said, ‘Oh no, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31
Then Abraham said, ‘If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone should rise from the dead.’””
Other Gospel messages reinforce that stance.
"Luke 4
16
He came to Nazareth, where he had grown up, and went according to his custom into the synagogue on the sabbath day. He stood up to read
17
and was handed a scroll of the prophet Isaiah. He unrolled the scroll and found the passage where it was written:
18
“The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to bring glad tidings to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free,
19
and to proclaim a year acceptable to the Lord.”
and
"Luke 14
12
Then he said to the host who invited him, “When you hold a lunch or a dinner, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or your wealthy neighbors, in case they may invite you back and you have repayment.
13
Rather, when you hold a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind;
14
blessed indeed will you be because of their inability to repay you. For you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”
and
"Matthew 25
31
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,
32
and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33
He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34
Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
36
naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’
37
Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38
When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39
When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’
40
And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
41
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”
Who can doubt that the materially poor are to be considered poor?
The priest who preached at the Mass I attended this morning, pointed out carefully that at the time of Christ, all of the poor were considered to be “guilty” of poverty due to personal sin. Jesus provided a revelation to the thinking on that issue.
“Luke 16
19
“There was a rich man who dressed in purple garments and fine linen and dined sumptuously each day.
20
And lying at his door was a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores,
21
who would gladly have eaten his fill of the scraps that fell from the rich man’s table. Dogs even used to come and lick his sores.
22
When the poor man died, he was carried away by angels to the bosom of Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried,
23
and from the netherworld, where he was in torment, he raised his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
24
And he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me. Send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am suffering torment in these flames.’
25
Abraham replied, ‘My child, remember that you received what was good during your lifetime while Lazarus likewise received what was bad; but now he is comforted here, whereas you are tormented.
26
Moreover, between us and you a great chasm is established to prevent anyone from crossing who might wish to go from our side to yours or from your side to ours.’
27
He said, ‘Then I beg you, father, send him to my father’s house,
28
for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they too come to this place of torment.’
29
But Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the prophets. Let them listen to them.’
30
15 He said, ‘Oh no, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31
Then Abraham said, ‘If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone should rise from the dead.’””
Other Gospel messages reinforce that stance.
"Luke 4
16
He came to Nazareth, where he had grown up, and went according to his custom into the synagogue on the sabbath day. He stood up to read
17
and was handed a scroll of the prophet Isaiah. He unrolled the scroll and found the passage where it was written:
18
“The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to bring glad tidings to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free,
19
and to proclaim a year acceptable to the Lord.”
and
"Luke 14
12
Then he said to the host who invited him, “When you hold a lunch or a dinner, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or your wealthy neighbors, in case they may invite you back and you have repayment.
13
Rather, when you hold a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind;
14
blessed indeed will you be because of their inability to repay you. For you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”
and
"Matthew 25
31
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,
32
and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33
He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34
Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
36
naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’
37
Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38
When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39
When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’
40
And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
41
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”
Who can doubt that the materially poor are to be considered poor?
- Status