Who are the early church fathers for SDAs?

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Actually they claim to be sola-scriptura they are in fact not. They hold the “writeings” of their prophetess Ellen White as equal to the bible.
I would say that SDAs see both scripture and the prophetic writings of Ellen White as coming from the same Source of revelation. If God inspired both the authors or scripture and the prophetess, it would make sense to hold both in similar esteem. 🤷
(Hmm, that might also be a good excuse for Tradition and the Magisterium…lol.)

In my experience, my former SDA pastor gave many sermons in which the writings of Christian teachers (such as C.S. Lewis and Dr. Dobson) were degraded in favor of the guidance of Ellen White. Her writings were not presented to me as equal with scripture, but as a sure norm given by God for understanding the scriptures.
“…The writers of the Bible were God’s penmen, NOT His pen.”…
Can’t that be consistent with a Catholic understanding of how the scriptures were inspired (or did I misunderstand something)?
And they follow someone who conjured up their dead husband…
Where/when? :confused:
 
I would say that SDAs see both scripture and the prophetic writings of Ellen White as coming from the same Source of revelation. If God inspired both the authors or scripture and the prophetess, it would make sense to hold both in similar esteem. 🤷
(Hmm, that might also be a good excuse for Tradition and the Magisterium…lol.)

In my experience, my former SDA pastor gave many sermons in which the writings of Christian teachers (such as C.S. Lewis and Dr. Dobson) were degraded in favor of the guidance of Ellen White. Her writings were not presented to me as equal with scripture, but as a sure norm given by God for understanding the scriptures.

Can’t that be consistent with a Catholic understanding of how the scriptures were inspired (or did I misunderstand something)?

Where/when? :confused:
More accurately, she believed she communicated with her dead husband through dreams. She had a lot of supposed visions…all happening after a serious head injury. Google the subject…there’s a lot out there to read.
 
Can’t that be consistent with a Catholic understanding of how the scriptures were inspired (or did I misunderstand something)?
No, it’s going the other direction from that…
…Scripture says God is the same yesterday, today & forever.
…And that God’s purposes don’t fail.

The SDA’s knew Scripture was clear in the Old Testament that God would come and save the world…
…And that The Christ would NOT fail - AKA: Salvation was a matter of WHEN & not “IF”.
…The SDA’s knew all that was in the Bible.
…But it conflicted with their creature Christ Doctrine.

This is where Ellen White comes into her own - she starts churning out teachings, visions…
…That state Christ was a creature and therefore could have lost His own salvation.
…God could have eternally annihilated Him for failing the tests, etc.

This is going the other direction from the way Catholics view Scripture / inspiration.
 
Early SDA Church Fathers or as they call them Pioneers of the true Faith.

James White: Anti-Trinitarian
Joseph Bates: Anti Trinitarian
Joe Waggoner:Anti Trinitarian
C.E. Cornell: Anti Trinitarian
John Nevins Andrews: Anti Trinitarian
J.N. Loughborowugh: Anti Trinitarian
Uriah Smith: Anti Trinitarian
S.N. Haskell: Anti Trinitarian
A.T. Jones: Anti Trinitarian
Ellet J. Waggoner: Anti Trinitarian
Ellen G. White: Anti Trinitarian
That’s a lot of anti-trinitarians for a church that believes in the Trinity.
  1. Trinity:
    There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. He is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Deut. 6:4; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 14:7.)
  2. Father:
    God the eternal Father is the Creator, Source, Sustainer, and Sovereign of all creation. He is just and holy, merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness. The qualities and powers exhibited in the Son and the Holy Spirit are also revelations of the Father. (Gen. 1:1; Rev. 4:11; 1 Cor. 15:28; John 3:16; 1 John 4:8; 1 Tim. 1:17; Ex. 34:6, 7; John 14:9.)
  3. Son:
    God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ. Through Him all things were created, the character of God is revealed, the salvation of humanity is accomplished, and the world is judged. Forever truly God, He became also truly man, Jesus the Christ. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He lived and experienced temptation as a human being, but perfectly exemplified the righteousness and love of God. By His miracles He manifested God’s power and was attested as God’s promised Messiah. He suffered and died voluntarily on the cross for our sins and in our place, was raised from the dead, and ascended to minister in the heavenly sanctuary in our behalf. He will come again in glory for the final deliverance of His people and the restoration of all things. (John 1:1-3, 14; Col. 1:15-19; John 10:30; 14:9; Rom. 6:23; 2 Cor. 5:17-19; John 5:22; Luke 1:35; Phil. 2:5-11; Heb. 2:9-18; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4; Heb. 8:1, 2; John 14:1-3.)
  4. Holy Spirit:
    God the eternal Spirit was active with the Father and the Son in Creation, incarnation, and redemption. He inspired the writers of Scripture. He filled Christ’s life with power. He draws and convicts human beings; and those who respond He renews and transforms into the image of God. Sent by the Father and the Son to be always with His children, He extends spiritual gifts to the church, empowers it to bear witness to Christ, and in harmony with the Scriptures leads it into all truth. (Gen. 1:1, 2; Luke 1:35; 4:18; Acts 10:38; 2 Peter 1:21; 2 Cor. 3:18; Eph. 4:11, 12; Acts 1:8; John 14:16-18, 26; 15:26, 27; 16:7-13.)
adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html
 
My confusion about SDA’s is the reason I joined this site.
You joined a Catholic forum site because you were confused about SDAs? I realize this subforum is non Catholic. And if there are SDAs participating or if there are former SDAs who participate and if the former members indeed give a true representation of the SDA faith, you could learn something about them. I too learn about various faiths from their members who participate on this subforum. But when I wanted to learn more about SDA I joined a SDA forum and took their online Discover Bible course. Clearing up confusion about SDA as the reason to join a Catholic site never crossed my mind.
 
I was raised in the SDA tradition by Christian parents who loved the Lord very much. SDAs do believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit–they are baptized in the name of the Holy Trinity to affect a new birth, which to me means the forgiveness of sins and the opportunity to begin anew. Nearly every sermon I heard in the years that I attended, referenced both the scriptures and Ellen White. EGW was given as much weight as the Holy Scriptures and that is one of the reasons I have left that tradition behind and cannot ever return to it. As far as early Christian fathers are concerned, the SDAs do not give them the veneration that the Catholic Church does but do acknowledge the Apostles, etc as the followers of Christ and as those who set the example of evangelization to the world.

However, there are beautiful, God fearing, kind Christians in that tradition as well as all other Protestant traditions. To damn them for not believing as the Catholic Church believes is, in my opinion, unfair. My parents are examples of persons living upright Godly lives, and as examples of such to my siblings and me. I will see them again in Heaven.
Hoo(name removed by moderator)mie, this was a charitable post and God bless you for your words about Christians in all traditions and not damning them for not believing as Catholics do.

Since you explained that SDAs do baptize in the name of the Holy Trinity, do you know whether or not the Catholic Church accepts the baptism of an SDA who desires to convert to Catholicism? Or do they need to be re-baptized?
 
That’s a lot of anti-trinitarians for a church that believes in the Trinity.
When you pour in an alien definition of what the Trinity is…
…Any group can claim to believe in the Trinity.

I see you’ve pulled from the SDA Church official website…
…That’s good.
40.png
CMatt25:
  1. Trinity:
    There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a UNITY of three co-eternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation.
SDA’s don’t believe in Three Divine Persons in ONE Substance…
…They believe ( now ) Three separate Persons, three separate substances.
…That are united in purpose & character - NOT Substance.

Seventh-day Adventist Review & Herald
A plan of salvation was encompassed in the covenant made by the Three Persons of the Godhead, who possessed the attributes of Deity equally. In order to eradicate sin and rebellion from the universe and to restore harmony and peace, one of the divine Beings accepted, AND entered into, the role of the Father, ANOTHER the role of the Son. The remaining divine Being, the Holy Spirit, was also to participate in effecting the plan of salvation. All of this took place before sin and rebellion transpired in heaven. By accepting the roles that the plan entailed, the divine Beings lost none of the powers of Deity. With regard to their eternal existence and other attributes, they were one and equal. But with regard to the plan of salvation, there was, in a sense, a submission on the part of the Son to the Father."

docs.adventistarchives.org/docs/RH/RH19961031-V173-44__C.pdf#view=fit
page 12

Now, does THAT sound like the Trinity to you?
…You see how easily an SDA religious instructor can teach the above while subscribing.
…To “Trinity #2”.
40.png
CMatt25:
  1. Father:
    God the eternal Father is the Creator, Source, Sustainer, and Sovereign of all creation. He is just and holy, merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness. The qualities and powers exhibited in the Son and the Holy Spirit are also revelations of the Father. (Gen. 1:1; Rev. 4:11; 1 Cor. 15:28; John 3:16; 1 John 4:8; 1 Tim. 1:17; Ex. 34:6, 7; John 14:9.)
Yes, according to Ellen White and the other co-founders of the religion - Christ…
…Had to “tow the rope” otherwise ‘God’ would have eternally annihilated Christ.
…Make no mistake, The Father “conditionally” allowed Christ to be ‘God’.

Ellen White, Signs of the Times, June 9, 1898
Had the head of Christ been touched, the hope of the human race would have perished. Divine wrath would have come upon Christ as it came upon Adam. Christ and the church would have been without hope.”

Ellen White
Though Christ humbled Himself to become man, the Godhead was still His own. His Deity could not be lost WHILE He stood faithful and true to His loyalty.

text.egwwritings.org/publication.php?pubtype=Book&bookCode=5BC&lang=en&collection=2&section=all&pagenumber=1129&QUERY=his+deity+could+not+be+lost&resultId=1

Of course IF Christ wasn’t loyal to The Father His conditional deity would have been extracted…
…And creature Christ rots in the tomb - game over.

Ellen White
The new tomb enclosed Him in its rocky chambers. If one single sin had tainted His character the stone would NEVER have been rolled away from the door of His rocky chamber, and the world with its burden of guilt would have perished

text.egwwritings.org/publication.php?pubtype=Book&bookCode=10MR&lang=en&collection=2&section=all&pagenumber=385&QUERY=door+of+his+rocky+chamber&resultId=1&isLastResult=1

The above and a whole host more is simply the same old Arianism that Ellen White was around since her youth…

Review and Herald November 14, 1854
Again, where it is declared, that there are none good except the Father, it cannot be understood that none others are good in a relative sense; for Christ and angels, are good, yea perfect, in their respective sphere; but that the Father ALONE is supremely, or absolutely, good; and that he ALONE is immortal in an absolute sense; that he alone is self-existent; and, that, consequently, every other being, however high or low, is absolutely dependent upon him for life; for being. This idea is most emphatically expressed by our Savior himself; " For as the Father hath life in himself, so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself." John v, 26. This would be singular language for one to use who had life in his essential nature, just as much as the Father. To meet such a view, it should read thus: For as the Father hath life in himself, so hath the Son life in himself If as Trinitarians argue, the Divine nature of the Son hath life in himself (i. e., is self existent) just the same, and in as absolute a sense, as the Father

Ellen White, Review and Herald, Jan 14, 1909
We are to be partakers of knowledge. As I have seen pictures representing Satan coming to Christ in the wilderness of temptation in the form of a hideous monster, I have thought, How little the artists knew of the Bible! Before his fall, Satan was, next to Christ, the highest ANGEL in heaven

adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

I could go on but have we not talked about these things previously?
 
You joined a Catholic forum site because you were confused about SDAs? I realize this subforum is non Catholic. And if there are SDAs participating or if there are former SDAs who participate and if the former members indeed give a true representation of the SDA faith, you could learn something about them. I too learn about various faiths from their members who participate on this subforum. But when I wanted to learn more about SDA I joined a SDA forum and took their online Discover Bible course. Clearing up confusion about SDA as the reason to join a Catholic site never crossed my mind.
I have a SDA friend who wasn’t being very open about the teachings of his church but was still trying to convert and marry me. Because I will always go with the teachings of the Catholic Church, I came to this site. I did visit the SDA main website for info and I never joined one of their forums because I’m not interested in debating with anyone and the info on their own website left me confused. What I have read on this forum were other people debates with SDA’s who are on this site, the same thing I would have done if I had joined a SDA site. The SDA’s and Catholics on this site debated well enough for me to understand both sides.

With that being said, you have your way of learning about SDA’s and have my way. Your way works for you and my way has helped me a great deal. I’m not interested in debating my learning process with you, so I will stop here…

Thanks for your opinion…
 
When you pour in an alien definition of what the Trinity is…
…Any group can claim to believe in the Trinity.

I see you’ve pulled from the SDA Church official website…
…That’s good.

SDA’s don’t believe in Three Divine Persons in ONE Substance…
…They believe ( now ) Three separate Persons, three separate substances.
…That are united in purpose & character - NOT Substance.
I agree. From my reading, it seems like the SDA understanding of God has evolved throughout its history, with many of the early leaders and persons involved with the beginnings of the movement being anti-Trinitarian.

Also, 2 weeks ago I had a conversation with one of my coworkers about religion, and he’s SDA. We specifically talked about the Trinity doctrine, as I brought up the issue of substance, consubstantiality, being, etc (and that these are philosophical/technical terms used to formalize the Trinity, or more precisely, the relationship of the Father and the Son, at least initially, at the Council of Nicaea). He said that they don’t believe in that, but believe, as you note, that they are united in purpose (which of course is similar to the LDS understanding of the Godhead). Even the quote from the SDA website, which states that the Trinity is “a unity of three co-eternal Persons”, isn’t specific, since it doesn’t talk about what that “unity” consists of (since, as mentioned, LDS believe that the three Persons are a unity, but that certainly doesn’t make Mormonism Trinitarian in the orthodox/traditional sense).
 
Here if those of you questioning SDA and the Trinity believe “Catholic Answers” gives correct answers, this should clear up and end any confusion Catholics have about SDA and the Trinity and Baptism.

“By virtue of their valid baptism, and their belief in Christ’s divinity and in the doctrine of the Trinity, Seventh-day Adventists are both ontologically and theologically Christians.”

catholic.com/tracts/seventh-day-adventism
 
Here if those of you questioning SDA and the Trinity believe “Catholic Answers” gives correct answers, this should clear up and end any confusion Catholics have about SDA and the Trinity and Baptism.

“By virtue of their valid baptism, and their belief in Christ’s divinity and in the doctrine of the Trinity, Seventh-day Adventists are both ontologically and theologically Christians.”

catholic.com/tracts/seventh-day-adventism
Interestingly, LDS baptisms were accepted for some time by the Catholic Church (for those that have “Inside Mormonism”, published by Catholic Answers, at the time of the publication, LDS baptisms were accepted by the Catholic Church as valid (perhaps based on similarly vague statements on the Godhead, such as the first Article of Faith, for one), as we read in the book), then LDS converts were conditionally baptized, then finally, and currently, LDS baptisms were and are not accepted as valid by the Catholic Church. So, similarly, I don’t see your statement above as having any relevance as to the reality of the evolution of SDA understandings on God (as already noted, early Adventists, including Ellen G. White, were explicitly non-Trinitarian), and the fact that current Adventists many times disavow the traditional/orthodox understanding of the Trinity (at least as formally defined), specifically on the consubstantiality of the Persons, and speak about their unity as one of purpose, similar to the LDS understanding of the unity of the Godhead.
 
I don’t see your statement above as having any relevance…
No problem. If you don’t accept what catholic.com said about SDAs believing in the Trinity and about SDA Baptism being valid, I don’t mind. As far as I know maybe the Catholic Church has changed it’s teaching from that given by this site in the link I provided and SDA Baptism is no longer thought to be valid Trinitarian Baptism. 🤷 That’s why I asked Hoo(name removed by moderator)mie. In any case, peace.
 
Here if those of you questioning SDA and the Trinity believe “Catholic Answers” gives correct answers, this should clear up and end any confusion Catholics have about SDA and the Trinity and Baptism.

“By virtue of their valid baptism, and their belief in Christ’s divinity and in the doctrine of the Trinity, Seventh-day Adventists are both ontologically and theologically Christians.”

catholic.com/tracts/seventh-day-adventism
As Livingwaters7 had stated it’s one thing to use the Orthodox Formula for Baptism…
…And something totally different when an alien meaning other than Orthodox is poured into it.

The Catholic Church teaches that what it is that makes Christ ‘God’…
…Is identical to what makes the Father & the Holy Spirit, ‘God’.
…Making endless theological affirmations that Christ had a ‘conditional’ deity.
…Is NOT part of the deposit of Faith - it violates Sacred Scripture and the Creeds which systematize it.

Ellen White literally gloated that Christ had a ‘conditional deity’…
…This was exactly what her co-founders also gloated over.

The Ecthesis of the Synod at Nice
We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten of his Father, of the substance of the Father, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten (γεννηθέντα), not made, being of one substance (ὁμοούσιον, consubstantialem) with the Father. By whom all things were made, both which be in heaven and in earth. Who for us men and for our salvation came down [from heaven] and was incarnate and was made man. He suffered and the third day he rose again, and ascended into heaven. And he shall come again to judge both the quick and the dead. And [we believe] in the Holy Ghost. And whosoever shall say that there was a time when the Son of God was not (ἤν ποτε ὅτε οὐκ ἦν), or that before he was begotten he was not, or that he was made of things that were not, or that he is of a different substance or essence [from the Father] or that he is a creature, or subject to change or conversionall that so say, the Catholic and Apostolic Church anathematizes them.
newadvent.org/fathers/3801.htm
 
ifJesus sinned He never could have been God in the first place,
Christ was tempted to prove that He is God and to show the pride of the adversary.
 
ifJesus sinned He never could have been God in the first place,
Christ was tempted to prove that He is God and to show the pride of the adversary.
Amen!

Luke 24,44
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that ALL THINGS must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me

One of those things was that Christ would die and that He would have ZERO sin…
…SDA’s reject this because it undermines their creature Christ Doctrine.
…Thus if Ellen White says something against the Bible the SDA’s will go with her.
…Because the Bible according to Ellen White was less accurate then her prophetic utterance.
 
Where is this written in the OT?
2nd Chron 19,7
Wherefore now let the fear of the Lord be upon you; take heed and do it: **for there is **NO iniquity with the Lord our God

Daniel 2,44

And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: AND the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Could Christ have a kingdom that would stand forever “IF” he sinned?
…How sure was ‘God’ when Daniel was told the dream was certain & interpretation sure?

Isaiah 42,1
Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. **He shall not fail **nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
 
A group of SDAs must have been canvassing my neighborhood recently, as this morning I discovered a bag containing Ellen G. White’s “Planet In Rebellion” on my doorknob.

It is apparently a condensed version of her “Great Controversy” which is apparently the “Dianetics” of Seventh-Day Adventism. I didn’t really know all of that until I researched it, while skimming the book I began to get that the book had ties to SDA, especially when the book started going on and on about both Sunday worship and the Rev. Miller, whose Millerite ramblings back in the 1800s gave birth to both the SDAs and Branch Davidians, among others.

I knew about the Branch Davidians roots in the SDA from a book written by David Limbaugh about what happened at Waco (the book is Absolute Power, and the chapter, specifically, is Chapter One). I haven’t read that book in years but found the movement to be strange, and interesting, but mostly strange. Limbaugh did a good job with explaining the group’s belief system and how they came to be established in Waco, and the Clinton-Reno Justice Department’s lack of comprehension of these facts, and how that probably played a role in the mess which was Waco. I mean sure, the people were kooky, but that didn’t mean they had to be burned alive. Anyhoo…

I found the Ellen G. White book to be amusing, mostly, going on an on about Satan and “popery,” etc. I’m not sure I’d ever want to meet someone who took this stuff really, really seriously. If the knocked at my door before dropping the book off, they didn’t knock very hard. I’m not really sure what to do with the book now. I could recycle it, or I could send it off to my sister, who used to collect religious propoganda from her days attending a large public university. I can’t begin to tell you how many copies of the Book of Mormon she has. They hand those things out willy nilly without keeping track of how many they hand out to one person. “Hey, you look familiar, did I give you one of these yesterday?” I mean, come on! After a while it starts to really cost money to print and hand those things out!

I didn’t realize there was a SDA presence in my city. I live in a city in which I did not grow up – the place I grew up is a bigger city with a higher percentage of Catholics. Now that I am out in the sticks, the local parish has a history which includes her first church alledgedly being burned down by the local branch of the KKK back in the 1920s. Fun!

As I look at the flyer handed out with the book, there is apparently some sort of week long event with lectures taking place each night about all sorts of different topics, with the events taking place at the “Church Auditorium” with the address of the local SDA church, but the flyer makes no mention of the event having anything to do with Seventh Day Adventism. Is this normal procedure? If they are proud to be SDAs, why not say so?

Their goal, I guess, is probably to attract some of the local Protestant population, and to use the Catholic Church as a punching bag as a way to attract them.
 
some years ago I was invited to an “explore the prophetic” series of meetings by the SDA’s…
…They had slides of dragons and various other “sensational images” to really throw out the razzle-dazzle.
…Their primary thing appears to be to convince the people going to these ‘shows’.
…That the Pope has stolen the Sabbath & replaced it with Lucifer’s Day ( which they claim is Sunday ).

If a person ‘takes the bait’ and gets hooked in after a short time the SDA’s will really start pushing…
…Their ‘creature Christ’ Doctrine - that appears to be the most important Doctrine to them.
…In all seriousness the Sabbath teaching is harmless compared to their horrific creature Christ teaching.
 
As Livingwaters7 had stated it’s one thing to use the Orthodox Formula for Baptism…
…And something totally different when an alien meaning other than Orthodox is poured into it.
As I have stated I’m not even certain if your church still considers SDA Baptism and their belief in the Trinity as valid or not. I only know what I read in the link I earlier provided from the site we are on, catholic.com. And the linked tract from this site about SDA said SDA Baptism is valid and they believe in the Trinity. Until someone shows me otherwise, I’m going to have to assume the Catholic Church still teaches that SDA Baptism is valid and that SDA believe in the Trinity. If that remains the position of the Catholic Church, as a Catholic, would you not think then the Catholic Church would know whether the SDA meaning is alien and unorthodox? So if your church still accepts SDA Baptism and its Trinitarian belief, then why would it, if it is alien? Are you saying the Catholic Church and this site are wrong if they still say the Catholic Church accepts SDA Baptism and say SDA believe in the Trinity?
 
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