E
E.E.N.S
Guest
If only we had some authoritative figure or some info from the earliest writings of Christianity to help us better understand what this verse meant…
…oh wait.
…oh wait.
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R
rev_kevin
Guest
Scripture is the inspired word of God written by men through the Holy Spirit. Isn’t this getting off the topic. Lets try to keep it on topic please.
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
It’s not off topic at all. You were the one asserting that grace does not come through things. Yet you just stated that the reason you know that Jesus died for your sins is from Scripture. Which is a thing, written by the Church, with the authority of God the Holy Spirit behind it. Yet you state that Absolution by a man in the Church with the authority of God the Son behind it is false. You’re applying one standard for Scripture and another for Holy Absolution.
The point is that grace comes from God through mediate means that He has instituted. Just as you cannot know that Jesus died for your sins without the mediate means of grace (Holy Scripture), you cannot know that God has forgiven you without the mediate means of grace in Baptism, the Supper, or Absolution.
E
eucharisteo
Guest
If only we had some authoritative figure or some info from the earliest writings of Christianity to help us better understand what this verse meant…
…oh wait.
Especially the
R
Reuben_J
Guest
Absolutely excellent.
T
Third_Day
Guest
.I toltaly agree. We are to confess to the presbyter as James tell us in James 5 and as Jesus tells the apostles in John 20
.What if you sinned against your wife by the sin of adultery.? You could ask her to forgive you and she could forgive you but that doesn’t mean that God has forgiven you. God has given the Church men that have the authority to forgive sin in the name of Christ. THat is exacltly what Paul is saying " Anyone whom you forgive I also forgive. What I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the person of Christ" 2 Cor. 2:10
Paul is clearly saying that he hasn’t forgiven by his own power and authority but what he has forgiven has been done in the person of Christ.
As Matthew tells us this authority to forgive sin has been given to" men" Mat. 9:8
R
rev_kevin
Guest
Now your twisting what I said and meant. You can not buy Grace or do anything to earn God’s grace, I.E. things. Scripture tell us that Jesus died for our sins, Scripture is not how you get God’s grace,
The RCC did not write the bible, they may have put Scripture together but they did not write it.
Paul’s writting in 1 Timothy 2:5 says, "For there is only one God and one mediator who can reconcile God and people. He is the man Christ Jesus.
Where do you see you cannot know that God has forgiven you without the mediate means of grace in Baptism, the Supper, or Absolution?
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
I mentioned nothing about earning God’s grace. You deny that God’s grace comes from the preaching of Scripture? This is not the view that Paul had. You would know nothing about God’s grace if God did not come to you through His word and through his sacraments (even if you deny them). God’s grace does not come to man in a vacuum nor fall out of the sky. It comes through tangible realities. God reconciled Himself to mankind through a flesh and bones Jesus.
I mean simply that God reaches mankind through means. His appointed means are Word and Sacrament. The promise of God is attached to these means and they are fully efficacious. I can trust that God has forgiven my sins through Christ because my Baptism, the Lord’s Supper, and Absolution demonstrate this to me. They are the visible word of God. And God’s word never returns empty. Hence, they are the means whereby faith is created in the previously dead human heart.
R
rev_kevin
Guest
What James is saying in 5:16 is that Christ has made it possible for us to go directly to God for forgiveness, Now confessing our sins to each other still has an important place. !) If we have sinned against an individual, we must ask them to forgive us. 2) If our sin has affected the church, we must confess it publicly. 3) If you need loving support if you are struggling with a sin, you should confess that sin to those who are able to provide that suppot.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Concur with all the posts here in support of confessing one’s sins to a priest.
Again, we are members of a Church, not God and me against the world.
Secondly, as the posts here pointed out, Jesus gave His authority to His apostles…He did not do the same with the crowds of people. The apostles were appointed by Christ, consecrated in truth and holiness, set aside, to minister Christ to His people.
So in the sacrament of Reconciliation, it is an outward, concrete sign involving the priest and the penitant…but within the Sacrament is Jesus Christ!! …
the same person who preached, died and rose from the dead…behind the temporal and visible ‘structure’ of a sacrament is the living and life-giving presence and action of Jesus Christ. And people experience Him when confession is done.
And the Sacrament of Confession/Reconciliation is to restore the sacred bond between God and the person so they can resume the reception of the Sacred Holy Eucharist. You cannot bring the Lord into your personal temple full of sin.
The Catholic faith upholds the highest standards for the Lord’s holy temple whether it be in an actual church, the placement of the tabernacle, and how the sacred vessels, the Sacrament of the Eucharist, Body and Blood, are venerated and consumed after Mass even including the sacred linens…and it also reflects this integrity of faith and treatment of the Lord’s divine Presence regarding our inner temple as well. We cannot bring the Lord into a dirty ‘house’ of the soul contaminated and broken by serious sin. This integrity is also reflected in our faith of Mary’s immaculate conception, her womb a tabernacle to nurture and carry the Lord, her sinless being in providing the earthly home of the Savior of the world.
We cannot imagine how sin is offensive to God. The loss of sin is one of the great tragedies of modern times.
Third, Serious sin Must be absolved through a priest at confession because such sin severs one’s relationship with Christ…the Lord made a reference to those who do not enter the kingdom…the fornicators, etc…
And fourthly, in the Twelve Steps program, one of the first things the participants are supposed to do is write a list of all the people they have hurt in their life, to tell them they are sorry. If that is not possible, then to write a letter, especially to a deceased person or someone that would be negatively affected by any contact from the transgressor.
The point is we are social beings. Just going to God and saying I am sorry is nothing…because those who are hurt are always waiting for the transgressor to stop being abusive or self-destructive and face up to themselves…
People need to hear it…people need to hear a person is going to stop being hurtful.
Fifth, making a personal act of contrition to God and then going to the required Sunday Mass absolves all venial sins. The person is able to receive Holy Communion in full grace and faith. I say Mass because it is a grave sin to miss Mass on Sunday. You can ask God directly for confessing a sin. The just man sins 7 times a day…
So…if we join the Catholic Church, we are entering into the Lord’s kingdom and it is full of people, of sinners, and we are going forward together in the Lord…we have each other to support and pray for one another, and we have our priests the Lord has provided for us to go to confession to. The priests don’t even remember much because as they say, they are very aware of their own sinful nature. So, you will see the priest at Mass washing his hands as a sign to ask the Lord to forgive him and wash away all the priest’s iniquities.
So, yes, only God can forgive sin through His Son Jesus Christ, the only atonement of sin, which our Sunday liturgy means, that restores us to the Father. And thus, the picture is far greater than going to somebody to confess their sins…
Again, we are members of a Church, not God and me against the world.
Secondly, as the posts here pointed out, Jesus gave His authority to His apostles…He did not do the same with the crowds of people. The apostles were appointed by Christ, consecrated in truth and holiness, set aside, to minister Christ to His people.
So in the sacrament of Reconciliation, it is an outward, concrete sign involving the priest and the penitant…but within the Sacrament is Jesus Christ!! …
the same person who preached, died and rose from the dead…behind the temporal and visible ‘structure’ of a sacrament is the living and life-giving presence and action of Jesus Christ. And people experience Him when confession is done.
And the Sacrament of Confession/Reconciliation is to restore the sacred bond between God and the person so they can resume the reception of the Sacred Holy Eucharist. You cannot bring the Lord into your personal temple full of sin.
The Catholic faith upholds the highest standards for the Lord’s holy temple whether it be in an actual church, the placement of the tabernacle, and how the sacred vessels, the Sacrament of the Eucharist, Body and Blood, are venerated and consumed after Mass even including the sacred linens…and it also reflects this integrity of faith and treatment of the Lord’s divine Presence regarding our inner temple as well. We cannot bring the Lord into a dirty ‘house’ of the soul contaminated and broken by serious sin. This integrity is also reflected in our faith of Mary’s immaculate conception, her womb a tabernacle to nurture and carry the Lord, her sinless being in providing the earthly home of the Savior of the world.
We cannot imagine how sin is offensive to God. The loss of sin is one of the great tragedies of modern times.
Third, Serious sin Must be absolved through a priest at confession because such sin severs one’s relationship with Christ…the Lord made a reference to those who do not enter the kingdom…the fornicators, etc…
And fourthly, in the Twelve Steps program, one of the first things the participants are supposed to do is write a list of all the people they have hurt in their life, to tell them they are sorry. If that is not possible, then to write a letter, especially to a deceased person or someone that would be negatively affected by any contact from the transgressor.
The point is we are social beings. Just going to God and saying I am sorry is nothing…because those who are hurt are always waiting for the transgressor to stop being abusive or self-destructive and face up to themselves…
People need to hear it…people need to hear a person is going to stop being hurtful.
Fifth, making a personal act of contrition to God and then going to the required Sunday Mass absolves all venial sins. The person is able to receive Holy Communion in full grace and faith. I say Mass because it is a grave sin to miss Mass on Sunday. You can ask God directly for confessing a sin. The just man sins 7 times a day…
So…if we join the Catholic Church, we are entering into the Lord’s kingdom and it is full of people, of sinners, and we are going forward together in the Lord…we have each other to support and pray for one another, and we have our priests the Lord has provided for us to go to confession to. The priests don’t even remember much because as they say, they are very aware of their own sinful nature. So, you will see the priest at Mass washing his hands as a sign to ask the Lord to forgive him and wash away all the priest’s iniquities.
So, yes, only God can forgive sin through His Son Jesus Christ, the only atonement of sin, which our Sunday liturgy means, that restores us to the Father. And thus, the picture is far greater than going to somebody to confess their sins…
C
Catholicnow
Guest
No where did I talk about sin. What happened in that verse was Christ gave them specifically the power to forgive or not
N
Newbie2
Guest
Unconfessed sins are retained.
Now I’m a bit confused, RK. In post #19 of the Non-Catholic (protestant) authority thread, you wrote:
“I don’t see why you would need to tell someone other than God your sins, He is the only one who can forgive them.”
No.
Acting in the person of Christ.
As an example?
Praying is communicating with God…that is the context that Catholics usually use.
James 5:16 “Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed.”
“Confess your sins to one another” seems pretty clear, no?
R
romesweethome
Guest
lets put it into context a bit more…
19On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”
this is the first thing Jesus did with his apostles post resurrection, i would say it was prety darn important.
Jesus gave them his own mission, and part of Jesus’s mission was to forgive sins. He breathed on them(God breathing on man) and gave them His Spirit. If YOU forgive anyone their sins(plural) they are forgiven, if YOU retain anyones sins, they are retained.
we as lay persons do not have this power, for we cannot forgive the sins of anyone, only the wrong of the sin, and we MUST forgive or we won’t be forgiven. The first bishops(apostles) can actually declare sopmeone who is unrepentent to be unforgiven by the power of God working through the bishop, priest.
peace, rsh
E
eucharisteo
Guest
rk
I believe you misunderstood a lot during your catechism learning days. The priest is acting persona Christi, in the person of Christ. The authority comes from Christ and the forgiveness comes from the father, through Jesus Christ. The priest is merely an instrument of that formula that Christ founded. Anybody can forgive sins, but only God can remove the eternal damnation or result of sin. There are terms for this stuff. I’m talking via backyard theologian. The evidence of this is contained in sacred scripture as well in sacred tradition, which was later documented in sacred scripture. Remember the golden serpant? God prescribes certain formulas is you will. In this case he as the high priest appointed the Apostles to carry on his work in his physical absense and that was transferred apostolically to the present day. Paul tells Timothy to be careful who he lays hands on. Why? So that he doesn’t ordain someone that may end up apostate or a heretic and thus lead more people away from the fullness of the Christ.
I found this interestin non-Catholic website. It’s interesting how some protestants recognize this
I believe you misunderstood a lot during your catechism learning days. The priest is acting persona Christi, in the person of Christ. The authority comes from Christ and the forgiveness comes from the father, through Jesus Christ. The priest is merely an instrument of that formula that Christ founded. Anybody can forgive sins, but only God can remove the eternal damnation or result of sin. There are terms for this stuff. I’m talking via backyard theologian.
The evidence of this is contained in sacred scripture as well in sacred tradition, which was later documented in sacred scripture. Remember the golden serpant? God prescribes certain formulas is you will. In this case he as the high priest appointed the Apostles to carry on his work in his physical absense and that was transferred apostolically to the present day. Paul tells Timothy to be careful who he lays hands on. Why? So that he doesn’t ordain someone that may end up apostate or a heretic and thus lead more people away from the fullness of the Christ.I found this interestin non-Catholic website. It’s interesting how some protestants recognize this
M
mark_a
Guest
I confess mortal sins to a priest. Better safe than sorry. And confession has been the greatest builder of humility in my own life.
Why do you worry so much about why Orthodox and Catholics confess to a priest?
You aren’t Orthodox or Catholic and really aren’t set up for confession to a priest, but still your sins are forgiven. So why fret over it?
C
choy
Guest
remember that the Sacrament of Reconcilliation not only reconciles us with God, it also reconcilles us with His Church
sin breaks many relationships, not just with God. Jesus asked us to confess to one another because we have hurt each other with our sins. we cannot say for certain that our sins are not forgiven if we directly pray to God and ask for forgiveness. of course God is forgiving and loving. but without the Sacrament of Confession, we are not reconcilled with the Church, which is the Mystical Body of Christ where we should be a part of. we break this perfect union with the Church when we sin, thus it needs to be restored as well
sin breaks many relationships, not just with God. Jesus asked us to confess to one another because we have hurt each other with our sins. we cannot say for certain that our sins are not forgiven if we directly pray to God and ask for forgiveness. of course God is forgiving and loving. but without the Sacrament of Confession, we are not reconcilled with the Church, which is the Mystical Body of Christ where we should be a part of. we break this perfect union with the Church when we sin, thus it needs to be restored as well
R
rev_kevin
Guest
QUOTE=mark a;6572412]I confess mortal sins to a priest. Better safe than sorry. And confession has been the greatest builder of humility in my own life.I 'm glad that it is the greatest buider in you life. But to me God is the safest.
Why do you worry so much about why Orthodox and Catholics confess to a priest?Not worried, Just wandering why.
You aren’t Orthodox or Catholic and really aren’t set up for confession to a priest, but still your sins are forgiven. So why fret over it? No fret like I said just wandering why.
But to me God is the safest.Why do you worry so much about why Orthodox and Catholics confess to a priest?Not worried, Just wandering why.
You aren’t Orthodox or Catholic and really aren’t set up for confession to a priest, but still your sins are forgiven. So why fret over it? No fret like I said just wandering why.
E
eucharisteo
Guest
I would like to add some Lutherans and Episcopalians/Anglicans as well.
E
eucharisteo
Guest
No fret like I said just wandering why.QUOTE=mark a;6572412]I confess mortal sins to a priest. Better safe than sorry. And confession has been the greatest builder of humility in my own life.I 'm glad that it is the greatest buider in you life.
Why do you worry so much about why Orthodox and Catholics confess to a priest?Not worried, Just wandering why.
You aren’t Orthodox or Catholic and really aren’t set up for confession to a priest, but still your sins are forgiven. So why fret over it?
rk,
did you never go to confession when you were Catholic?
T
twopekinguys
Guest
I can relate a story that happened recently in our parish.
I am the Director of RCIA for our parish, and this year we had a class that was much larger than we had expected, or were immediately prepared for.
We asked our Pastor to mention that we were looking for volunteers, as well as mentioning it in the bulletin.
After Mass, I had a gentleman come to me to talk about volunteering. He told me that he was living with a woman outside of marriage, and that they had a child together. (Flag goes up at this point) He went on to tell me that this arrangement had been going on for several years, and would probably continue that way for several more. He told me they didn’t get married because of financial issues.
I explained to the gentleman that considering his current circumstances, we could not let him volunteer as his chosen lifestyle did not uphold Church teachings etc.
He understood, and then went on to tell me that he received the Sacrament of Reconcilliation frequently, and confessed this each time. He also explained that our Pastor would no longer grant absolution for that particular sin because he was making no valid attempts to resolve the issue.
Now, obviously, the guy could circumvent the system and gone to a priest he didn’t know, but that wouldn’t really be valid now would it?
But that is one case where a sin(s) may not be forgiven
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