who can forgive sin

[choy]

I’m not going to get into it with you whether or not I have the authority to spread the word of God, to teach others about God and so forth. I don’t know where you are getting that we get our “authority” by simply reading the Bible and claiming it for ourselves.

i wonder why you are avoiding details with me
are you afraid that you are wrong?
if you are right, why are you afraid to prove me wrong?
isn’t it written, “the truth shall set you free”?

do share. it can only increase my understanding, or yours, or ours both

 

[rev_kevin]

Did I say that I don’t believe that Jesus is the Mediator? One cannot deny that Trinity, including God the Son, used mediators throughout salvation history. Catholics aren’t denying that God forgives sins; what you and I are in a disagreement is the how, not who.

In your post 119 you asked me “You don’t believe that you don’t need the Bible when yo can talk to God Himself right?”
Sorry I did not write the whole thing out, I thought you would know what I was saying.
Now by You don’t believe… can you please explain what you mean.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

I’m not going to get into it with you whether or not I have the authority to spread the word of God, to teach others about God and so forth. I don’t know where you are getting that we get our “authority” by simply reading the Bible and claiming it for ourselves.

What I believe is what choy is going with this is: if you are going to question the authority of priests, then it begs the question if any reverends are needed.

 

[Loboto-Me]

Actually it really doesn’t matter whether RevKev got his from “1 800 Ministry” or “Internet Get your Ministry Diploma Within 7 Days!” or " Baptist Seminary Collegiate", the fact of the matter is, the Sacraments aren’t involved. To us Catholics and to Sacramental Non-Catholic religions, we should be fine with what RevKev is doing. He’s right, there’s no problem with him supporting christians, and spreading the scripture, heck we could do this too!

 

[choy]

What I believe is what choy is going with this is: if you are going to question the authority of priests, then it begs the question if any reverends are needed.

right!

my contention is that priests and bishops today received authority through Apostolic Succession all the way back to the original 12, who received authority directly from Jesus

rev kevin questions this passing of authority, so now i’m curious how he got his. if our Apostolic Succession is invalid, what kind of valid authority does he have?

 

[mark_a]

Actually it really doesn’t matter whether RevKev got his from “1 800 Ministry” or “Internet Get your Ministry Diploma Within 7 Days!” or " Baptist Seminary Collegiate", the fact of the matter is, the Sacraments aren’t involved. To us Catholics and to Sacramental Non-Catholic religions, we should be fine with what RevKev is doing. He’s right, there’s no problem with him supporting christians, and spreading the scripture, heck we could do this too!

I really don’t think we have a problem with how RevKev confesses his sins. It’s the other way around.

Anyways, it’s pretty simple. If you’re Orthodox or Catholic, you reconcile yourself to the body of Christ through a priest.

If you’re not Catholic, you can’t.

Catholics also go to the priest for baptism, confirmation, matrimony, anointing of the sick, funerals, etc., etc. Why wouldn’t we go to a priest to bring ourselves back into a state of grace?

 

[rev_kevin]

Yes many may disagree,but nothing new,but does not disprove the sacrament in any shape or form. Disagreements is not proof,but a private judgment.

What makes you assume what I may or may not understand?
It has nothing to do being Protestant? Not for you,but for many it does have to do being Protestant because they have no clue or an understanding of the sacraments.

I did not say it was proof now did I?

Can you tell me, without looking them up, “all” the Sacraments?
What is a Sacrament?
How many are there?
Name them?
Whence have the Sacraments the power to give grace?
What grace do the Sacraments give?
Which are the Sacraments taht increase sanctifying grace in the soul?
Can you recieve the Sacraments more than once?
What is the Character which these Sacraments imprent in the soul?

 

[PJM]

=rev kevin;6568119]We had this discussion on another thread but it was off the topic so I wanted to continue the discussion.
The question is who has the authority to forgive sin?
John 20:23 has been brought up
"If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven. If you refuse to forgive them, they are unforgiven."

What does this mean to you and why?

The CATHOLIC POSITION IS: ONLY GOD CAN AND ONLY GOD DOES FORGIVE SINS.

The FACT that Jesus mandates a priest as Confessor is based on a very LONG OT TRADITION. Dating back to Aaron and Moses.

Lev.4: 26 And all its fat he shall burn on the altar, like the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings; so the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin, and he shall be forgiven".

**Num.15: 28 **“And the priest shall make atonement before the LORD for the person who commits an error, when he sins unwittingly, to make atonement for him; and he shall be forgiven.”

Lev.4: 23-28 if the sin which he has committed is made known to him, he shall bring as his offering a goat, a male without blemish, and shall lay his hand upon the head of the goat, and kill it in the place where they kill the burnt offering before the LORD; it is a sin offering. "

Lev. 21: 21,27 “and **Aaron /U]shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the people of Israel, and all their transgressions, all their sins; and he shall put them upon the head of the goat, and send him away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who is in readiness. And the bull for the sin offering and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to make atonement in the holy place, shall be carried forth outside the camp; their skin and their flesh and their dung shall be burned with fire.”

Heb.2: 17 Therefore he [Jesus] had to be made like his brethren in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make expiation for the sins of the people"

***A few FACTS about Catholic Confession…

1. The Priest is used in following Sacred Tradition of the Jews.
2. The Priest is sworn to secrecy even if his life is threatened!
3. The Priest uses the words: **“I absolve you from you’re sins, NOT EVER; I :forgive you for you’re sins.”"/*****COLOR]
4. The role of the Catholic priest given to them by Jesus Himself in [Matt. 16:19, Matt. 18:18 and John 20:20-23] is to determine if the person Confession is TRULY repentent; truly sorry and committed to with God’s help NOT sinning that way again.
5. Then the priest literally authroizes Christ to forgive the sins!
6. The priest issues a Pennance [not so different in concept than the OT sin offerings.]

Love and prayers,

Rev… haven’t we had this discussion before?**

 

[choy]

PJM, on #3, don’t forget to add that the priests absolves “in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”

 

[rev_kevin]

The CATHOLIC POSITION IS: ONLY GOD CAN AND ONLY GOD DOES FORGIVE SINS.

The FACT that Jesus mandates a priest as Confessor is based on a very LONG OT TRADITION. Dating back to Aaron and Moses.

Lev.4: 26 And all its fat he shall burn on the altar, like the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings; so the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin, and he shall be forgiven".

**Num.15: 28 **“And the priest shall make atonement before the LORD for the person who commits an error, when he sins unwittingly, to make atonement for him; and he shall be forgiven.”

Lev.4: 23-28 if the sin which he has committed is made known to him, he shall bring as his offering a goat, a male without blemish, and shall lay his hand upon the head of the goat, and kill it in the place where they kill the burnt offering before the LORD; it is a sin offering. "

Lev. 21: 21,27 “and **Aaron /**U]shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the people of Israel, and all their transgressions, all their sins; and he shall put them upon the head of the goat, and send him away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who is in readiness. And the bull for the sin offering and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to make atonement in the holy place, shall be carried forth outside the camp; their skin and their flesh and their dung shall be burned with fire.”

Heb.2: 17 Therefore he [Jesus] had to be made like his brethren in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make expiation for the sins of the people"

***A few FACTS about Catholic Confession…

1. The Priest is used in following Sacred Tradition of the Jews.So its a Jewish not a Catholic tradition?***
2. The Priest is sworn to secrecy even if his life is threatened!Me too
3. The Priest uses the words: **“I absolve you from you’re sins, NOT EVER; I :forgive you for you’re sins.”"/**COLOR]
4. The role of the Catholic priest given to them by Jesus Himself in [Matt. 16:19, Matt. 18:18 and John 20:20-23] is to determine if the person Confession is TRULY repentent; truly sorry and committed to with God’s help NOT sinning that way again.How are they able to determ if they are truly sorry byt these verses?
5. Then the priest literally authroizes Christ to forgive the sins!Christ needs the authorization of a priest first before Christ will forgive the sins?
6. The priest issues a Pennance [not so different in concept than the OT sin offerings.]

Love and prayers,

Rev… haven’t we had this discussion before?

I noticed that this had to do with atonement I didn’t see where they confessed to a priest.

 

[rev_kevin]

I really don’t think we have a problem with how RevKev confesses his sins. It’s the other way around.

Anyways, it’s pretty simple. If you’re Orthodox or Catholic, you reconcile yourself to the body of Christ through a priest.

If you’re not Catholic, you can’t.

Catholics also go to the priest for baptism, confirmation, matrimony, anointing of the sick, funerals, etc., etc. Why wouldn’t we go to a priest to bring ourselves back into a state of grace?

Where does it say that you can only be reconciled to Christ if you are only Orthodox or Catholic?

 

[rev_kevin]

right!

my contention is that priests and bishops today received authority through Apostolic Succession all the way back to the original 12, who received authority directly from Jesus

rev kevin questions this passing of authority, so now i’m curious how he got his. if our Apostolic Succession is invalid, what kind of valid authority does he have?

I only questioned the authority of the priest forgiving sin. Not all authority. Please don’t say things I did not say.

 

[DV56]

I quess what I don’t see is that confessing your sins to the presbyters is the most expedient way. I would think that the most expedient way would to go directly to God.

When we repent before God our sins are forgiven. We go to the priest for the absolution that Jesus gave to His apostles. The power to speak in Jesus’ place. Just like consecrating the bread and wine into the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus.

There are great graces in going to confession. As the body of Christ as a church we are accountable to all for our sins. Part of the Sacrament of Reconciliation is to make reparation where possible. We immediately ask forgiveness for our sins from God when committed. But to go to confession imparts graces to help avoid sinning again.

 

[choy]

I only questioned the authority of the priest forgiving sin. Not all authority. Please don’t say things I did not say.

but the authority of forgiving sin is part of all authority. how can they validly receive one authority and not another?

 

[rev_kevin]

but the authority of forgiving sin is part of all authority. how can they validly receive one authority and not another?

What I’m saying is that is all that I’m talking about here. If you want to discuss the rest then start another thread.

 

[choy]

What I’m saying is that is all that I’m talking about here. If you want to discuss the rest then start another thread.

i believe my argument is still within the context of the thread

the authority to forgive sins is part of what a bishop receives from the one who ordains him. the priests are extensions/collaborators of the bishop and would have this authority from the bishop. the authority to forgive sins is not seaprate from the authority to teach and the authority to confer other Sacaraments.

you’re saying that you believe priests have some authority, but not the authority to forgive. so question is, where did they get that authority? and why wasn’t the power to forgive part of it? do you outright deny Sacred Scripture where Christ gave the authority to forgive sins to the Apostles?

 

[Dancelittleewok]

i believe my argument is still within the context of the thread

the authority to forgive sins is part of what a bishop receives from the one who ordains him. the priests are extensions/collaborators of the bishop and would have this authority from the bishop. the authority to forgive sins is not seaprate from the authority to teach and the authority to confer other Sacaraments.

you’re saying that you believe priests have some authority, but not the authority to forgive. so question is, where did they get that authority? and why wasn’t the power to forgive part of it? do you outright deny Sacred Scripture where Christ gave the authority to forgive sins to the Apostles?

In other words, how can Protestant reverends, whom preach and teach the Word amongst other duties, be not included in sacredotalism?

 

[KathleenGee]

RevKevin,

…if you are even paying any attention to me…

 the sacraments are the visible concrete signs that have Jesus Christ alive within...the same person that was here on earth 2,000 years ago.

Fr Jeremy Driscoll, ‘The Meaning of the Mass’, does very well in explaining what mystery means and what the sacraments are.

We can only be held accountable by who we are and our conscience. You do not understand what the sacraments are. So you have a different grace than us. We believe Jesus Christ is present in the Eucharist, in confession, in confirmation, in Holy Orders, at marriage, in healing of the sick and dying…He is present in all the sacraments. Jesus judges each one of us according to the grace given. He will judge you somewhat differently than us and you are to follow your conscience.

The Lord also asks us to continually ask for more faith…we can never be satisfied where we are right now…so we must always ask for more faith.

We all partake in the role of prophet, priest and king as members of the Body of Christ, present to the world…but Holy Orders is a sacrament for those chosen and consecrated in Spirit and Truth…and they are the foundation of the sacraments through Jesus Christ.

The sacraments are concrete, visible signs of the inner presence of Jesus Christ…no argument. It is about Jesus Christ…not us.

 

[Matthew_P_Muehl]

I did not say it was proof now did I?

Can you tell me, without looking them up, “all” the Sacraments?
What is a Sacrament?
How many are there?
Name them?
Whence have the Sacraments the power to give grace?
What grace do the Sacraments give?
Which are the Sacraments taht increase sanctifying grace in the soul?
Can you recieve the Sacraments more than once?
What is the Character which these Sacraments imprent in the soul?

What’s the point rev… You reject the sacraments anyway.
Since you are your own authority the catholic church can’t possibly be right can it!
Everything you object to has been proven to you and yet you can’t see the forest because there are trees in the way. It all boils down to authority… does it not.

Matthew

 

[eucharisteo]

RevKevin,
…Jesus judges each one of us according to the grace given. He will judge you somewhat differently than us and you are to follow your conscience.
…

Actually in RevKevin’s case it may be significantly different because he received all the sacraments available to him growing up until maybe married. We can only hope that he is sincerely here to learn what he did not learn growing up. I once was in his shoes, but thank God I kept seeking truth and never assumed I had it. It has taken me a life of learning to come to where I am now. But ultimately God is responsible for me being here. He blessed us with the grace to search and stumble over the truth. Had it been a snake it would have bit us. Having the truth and leaving it can be much more severe for him than his cradle Baptist brethren. Prayers are always going up for you RK. I really do understand in part where and how you have come to your current state. I also realize that leaving family and friends who are Baptist would certainly be very difficult. If there is even an ounce of doubt about anything, bring it to the Lord in prayer and lift it up to him, asking continually to be forgiven if you are not doing the right thing. I will continue to pray for you and others like you. I’ve made it my personal vocation to do this… It’s my penance for having left the Church as well.