who can forgive sin

[rev_kevin]

What’s the point rev… You reject the sacraments anyway.
Since you are your own authority the catholic church can’t possibly be right can it!
Everything you object to has been proven to you and yet you can’t see the forest because there are trees in the way. It all boils down to authority… does it not.

Matthew

Wjats the point? You just made my point. You won’t answer the questions so that only leads me to believe that you don’t know the answers. I never said I was my own authority now did I! I didn’t say the Church was wrong about everything ether now did I! Just because I don’t see or believe the way you do don’t mean I can’t see the forest because of the trees. All authority comes from God.

 

[rev_kevin]

i believe my argument is still within the context of the thread

the authority to forgive sins is part of what a bishop receives from the one who ordains him. the priests are extensions/collaborators of the bishop and would have this authority from the bishop. the authority to forgive sins is not seaprate from the authority to teach and the authority to confer other Sacaraments.

you’re saying that you believe priests have some authority, but not the authority to forgive. so question is, where did they get that authority? and why wasn’t the power to forgive part of it? do you outright deny Sacred Scripture where Christ gave the authority to forgive sins to the Apostles?

Here is the problem> I have been told that a priest can forgive sin (like you stated above), then I have been told that they can’t, then I have been told that Christ is the only one who can forgive sin, then I have been told that Christ forgives sin with the help of a priest.

All these different statements have come from Catholics. If the Catholics can’t come to the same conclusion about this, then I believe what I believe.

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes, all authority does come down from God…and as Jesus said, He consecrated His apostles in Spirit (oneness) and truth.

We live in such a highly individualistic society where things have been going materialstically our way for a very long time. We have alot of freedom to do our own thing.

It has been said numerous times that for many the issues is accepting God’s authority in consecrated men…it turns into something else, and many disbelieve the clergy simply because of sheer authority issues.

 

[rev_kevin]

In other words, how can Protestant reverends, whom preach and teach the Word amongst other duties, be not included in sacredotalism?

Where in the Bible are the Sacraments listed?
Where in the Bible does it say they are sacred?

 

[rev_kevin]

Yes, all authority does come down from God…and as Jesus said, He consecrated His apostles in Spirit (oneness) and truth.

We live in such a highly individualistic society where things have been going materialstically our way for a very long time. We have alot of freedom to do our own thing.

It has been said numerous times that for many the issues is accepting God’s authority in consecrated men…it turns into something else, and many disbelieve the clergy simply because of sheer authority issues.

So a minister can’t be concecrated? Only clergy of the CC can. Where does it say that a priest is the only one’s who can preform the Sacraments?
What is needed inorder for someone to be concecrated?

 

[eucharisteo]

So a minister can’t be concecrated? Only clergy of the CC can. Where does it say that a priest is the only one’s who can preform the Sacraments?
What is needed inorder for someone to be concecrated?

This is why we have sacred tradition. When you read the ECF you will find what you ask. When you read scripture in light of sacred tradition with the guidance of the Church Authority you have the fullness of truth, If you study Judaism you’ll find similar beliefs about abortion, contraception and many other things that may shed some light on the history of our traditions.

 

[T_More]

Rev Kevin, for 1500 years, there was only one Church. Now, thousands, and thousands of different ideas of what’s important and what’s not, with some becoming so truncated from what the Church worshipped like at the beginning that those early Christians would have a difficult time recognizing them.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

So a minister can’t be concecrated? Only clergy of the CC can. Where does it say that a priest is the only one’s who can preform the Sacraments?
What is needed inorder for someone to be concecrated?

Hello Rev Kevin;

You seem to be a bit of a moving target. Your original post raised the issue of whether or not the sacrament of reconciliation could be supported from scripture. I think that the responses show that it can be.

Then you moved to the issue of authority, and it was again shown that the authority to forgive sin rests with the Father, who gives it to the Son who imparts the ability to forgive sins to his own disciples. The authority was passed from the Apostles to their successors, bishops, who passed the authority to their successor bishops down through the ages to the present. The apostolic tradition of that legacy is the direct link between Christ and those priests with the authority to forgive sin. (Both Catholic and Orthodox priests have this apostolic authority; protestant traditions lost that authority when they lost the apostolic succession of the bishops.)

You then moved on to all of the sacraments and the scriptural support for them. While I would take the position that all seven of the sacraments have their support in scripture and sacred tradition, your latest iteration is probably too vast to be addressed in a single post. I suggest that you stick to the original issue here (reconciliation) and raise the question of the other sacraments in separate threads. You may find that the answers you receive are more focused.

I understand that you do not accept the Catholic position. And that’s fine. Just try to keep an open mind and continue to explore the the issue in good faith.

Peace,
Robert

 

[LilyM]

Here is the problem> I have been told that a priest can forgive sin (like you stated above), then I have been told that they can’t, then I have been told that Christ is the only one who can forgive sin, then I have been told that Christ forgives sin with the help of a priest.

All these different statements have come from Catholics. If the Catholics can’t come to the same conclusion about this, then I believe what I believe.

With the help of a priest? No, no-one’s said that. Christ forgives sin through the agency of the priest. The priest is Christ’s hands, eyes and lips, if you will. Christ does so for our benefit, since humans are creatures who are heavily dependent on the visible and perceptible, He knows the benefits that we get from having visible and perceptible assurance of His forgiveness, and chooses to work in this way.

Like God forgave the people of Israel through the guidance of Aaron and his priesthood. Did the Israelites just seek His forgiveness in any old way they saw fit? No, because He instituted the sacrificial priesthood of Aaron, and when people sinned (it’s there in Leviticus) they came to the priests of the Temple with a sacrificial offering (a sin offering of some kind), confessed their sins to the priests who then offered the offering on their behalf to God.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Like God forgave the people of Israel through the guidance of Aaron and his priesthood. Did the Israelites just seek His forgiveness in any old way they saw fit? No, because He instituted the sacrificial priesthood of Aaron, and when people sinned (it’s there in Leviticus) they came to the priests of the Temple with a sacrificial offering (a sin offering of some kind), confessed their sins to the priests who then offered the offering on their behalf to God.

Which brings to mind an interesting observation; What happened to Nadab and Abihu when they tried to approach God directly on their own terms?

 

[polgas733]

We had this discussion on another thread but it was off the topic so I wanted to continue the discussion.
The question is who has the authority to forgive sin?
John 20:23 has been brought up
“If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven. If you refuse to forgive them, they are unforgiven.”
What does this mean to you and why?

(Mark 6:13). In his epistle, James says, “Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven” (Jas. 5:14–15).

 

[LilyM]

Which brings to mind an interesting observation; What happened to Nadab and Abihu when they tried to approach God directly on their own terms?

:yup:

 

[polgas733]

Here is the problem> I have been told that a priest can forgive sin (like you stated above), then I have been told that they can’t, then I have been told that Christ is the only one who can forgive sin, then I have been told that Christ forgives sin with the help of a priest.

All these different statements have come from Catholics. If the Catholics can’t come to the same conclusion about this, then I believe what I believe.

you know you just have to look at the bible to get the answer
(Mark 6:13). In his epistle, James says, “Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven” (Jas. 5:14–15).

 

[choy]

In other words, how can Protestant reverends, whom preach and teach the Word amongst other duties, be not included in sacredotalism?

i wanted to know why he believes priests have some authority, but not this particular authority (to forgive sins)

 

[choy]

Here is the problem> I have been told that a priest can forgive sin (like you stated above), then I have been told that they can’t, then I have been told that Christ is the only one who can forgive sin, then I have been told that Christ forgives sin with the help of a priest.

All these different statements have come from Catholics. If the Catholics can’t come to the same conclusion about this, then I believe what I believe.

well, the Catholic Church teaches one thing. as much as we would like that everyone is well Catechized, that isn’t the case for one reason or another

can you say the same within your congregation? is everyone within your church believes the same thing? or are they free to think for themselves? if so, what then is your purpose if everyone is free to think for themselves?

in the Catholic Church, thats not the case, albeit some people think it is. if you grew up a Catholic then you would know about the Catechism of the Catholic Church. if not, then perhaps you see the problem i am pointing out now. again, there is one teaching in the Church, regardless of what people say or think. again, since we are on the topic of authority, there are those with the authority to make teachings in the Church, and make official interpretations of Scripture.

it has already been explained to you, the difference between power and authority.

 

[Reuben_J]

Can you tell me, without looking them up, “all” the Sacraments?

1. Baptism
2. Confirmation
3. Penance (Reconiliaton/Confession)
4. Eucharist
5. Anointing of the sick (Extreme Unction)
6. Holy Order
7. Matrimony

What is a Sacrament?
An outward sign of an inward grace.

How many are there?
Seven

Name them?
See above.

Whence have the Sacraments the power to give grace?
As given by God/Jesus.

What grace do the Sacraments give?
Too many. Holiness, forgiveness, happiness, joy, ministrial duty, healing, one with Jesus, priesthood, to be a strong Christian in faith and in life, etc.

Which are the Sacraments taht increase sanctifying grace in the soul?
Don’t quite understand the question and probaly cannot answer it well but possibly all the Sacraments in each own way.
.

Can you recieve the Sacraments more than once?
Some only once, others as often as possible.

What is the Character which these Sacraments imprent in the soul?
Do not understand the question and probably don’t have the knowledge to answer it.

 

[mark_a]

Where does it say that you can only be reconciled to Christ if you are only Orthodox or Catholic?

I didn’t.

You’ve misread both of my posts you have responded to.

God must have a way to forgive people who don’t have access to the sacrament of reconcilliation in the Apostolic Churches.

 

[DV56]

Here is the problem> I have been told that a priest can forgive sin (like you stated above), then I have been told that they can’t, then I have been told that Christ is the only one who can forgive sin, then I have been told that Christ forgives sin with the help of a priest.

All these different statements have come from Catholics. If the Catholics can’t come to the same conclusion about this, then I believe what I believe.

From wikipedia…and I think this is a reasonable explanation.

Roman Catholicism

According to Roman Catholics, sacerdotalism, in the documents of Vatican II, is the teaching that “through the ministry of priests, the spiritual sacrifice of the faithful is made perfect in union with the [eternal] sacrifice of Christ, the sole Mediator. Through the hands of the priests and in the name of the whole Church, the Lord’s sacrifice is offered in the Eucharist in an unbloody and sacramental manner until He Himself returns.” Thus priests “exercise within the Church a function of the apostles. They are empowered to perform the ministry of the Word, by which men are formed into the People of God. They catch up and draw into the Eucharistic Sacrifice the spiritual sacrifice of the common priesthood of the faithful.”[2] St. Thomas Aquinas puts it this way: “Although Christ’s passion and death are not to be repeated, yet the power of that Victim Jesus endures forever, is eternal, for, as it is written, (Heb.X.14), ‘by one oblation He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.’” Then he notes that the priest participates in that one eternal “redemptive act” (on-going offering) sacramentally. His thinking runs like this: Jesus is both human/temporal and God/eternal. His offering on the cross was both eternal and human. In virtue of Jesus and his actions being eternal, in the Godhead, his act of giving/offering on the cross has no beginning and no end. (There is no beginning or end in the eternal.) It is an on-going offering and advocacy in eternity or heaven. In virtue of being part of the body of Christ (through baptism) the people of God, through a designated minister (priest), participate in this ongoing offering, advocacy, or sacrifice of Jesus sacramentally

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by rev kevin
Could it possibly mean the Jesus gave the disciples their Spirit power and Spirit guided mission, their mission being to preach the Gospel of Jesus so people’s sins might be forgiven because God is the only one who can forgive sin. Now Jesus gave the disciples the privilege of telling new believers that their sins have been forgiven because they have accepted Jesus’ message.

Rev. Please see post 187

 

[PJM]

=choy;6576435]PJM, on #3, don’t forget to add that the priests absolves “in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”

THANKS!

Geat point.