Who "controls" the Holy Land anymore?

[jaydog77]

At the end of the day, the fact that destruction and civilian casualties occur in this war does not make one side or another right. The most just “Just War” ever conceived would still result in civilian casualties. But a war does not become immoral because destruction results. Destruction is inevitable. A war is right or wrong based on why the course of action was chosen to begin with. Only a fool starts a war thinking they can avoid bad PR. Now, with that in mind a few observations:

• It is standard Muslim shahid (martyrs) warrior policy to both target civilians, or to fire from amongst civilians. This is used not only in “Palestine” (non-existent national identity created in the 20th century) but in Iraq as well. So those soldiers in a war zone have every right to be highly cautious and be MEAN.
• What’s worse? Killing the senior members of a terrorist organization and taking a few civilians with them, or allowing them to plan and execute their attacks that TARGET CIVILIANS? Guess Jews can’t defend themselves AND have friends.
• Terrorist attacks against Israeli Jews predate 1967 when the “west bank” and Gaza were taken. Just read the PALESTINIAN POST, the Jewish newspaper now known as the Jerusalem Post.
• Israel accepted their tiny land allocation (after it had been halved, then halved again) when the British Mandate ended. 5 “countries” invaded. Jews are verbotten there.
• Israel has been on the receiving end of 60 years of wars not of its own choosing, endless terror, economic blockades, diplomatic isolation and having only 1 true friend in the world. The so called victims (Arabs) with their mega-billions in oil dollars keep their “brothers” in refugee camps when they can be resettled and the whole issue closed tomorrow.

There has never been a Palestinian identity. They’re an amalgamation of Arabs that immigrated while Jews were making the desert their blossom. Ask the Greeks, Spanish, Serbs, Armenians and all the other races that were displaced by Arabs as Islam spread from Mecca who the real colonists are. Heck even the Crusaders knew!

In the Middle East, where do Arab Muslims and Christians have the right to vote, serve in government, participate freely in an economy, get free education, health care, demonstrate against the government and speak their mind? In the JEWISH STATE!

The fact that they have soldiers who break the law, kill civilians and are mean to civilians does not mean Israel is onthe wrong side. All soldiers are fallible Now given the culture of death that IS Islam, answer me this (pro-Palestinians)…Is the fact that more people have died on the “Palestinian” side versus Israel mean that Israel is cruel and indiscriminate? Or is it only natural that a society that encourages children to be in the streets throwing rocks and standing in front of tanks instead of being in school loses more people in this war because of their tactics?

May God continue to bless the chosen people.

 

[jaydog77]

Wow, I hadn’t read all the posts until after I wrote mine. Boy did it get ugly!

Smile guys, we don’t live there. Be happy 'bout that.

Its a shame sometimes we digress into “You’re spouting propaganda”, “No YOU are!”.

And it gets so personal. I’m waiting for the first “poo poo head!”, “Mom! He called me a poo poo head!”

Although some quotes and headlines the human bomb defender quoted were quite strange.

“Pope accuses Israel of humiliating Palestinians”

So? Boo hoo. Israel humiliates with their mean awful checkpoints, walls, and armed guards everywhere. Meanwhile, if only those martyrs would stop blowing themselves up they might not be needed…

Jerusalem Patriarch condemns Israeli occupation

So? Who asked him? You might care, I don’t. (by the way I would respect that if you did). I didn’t ask past Popes who blessed anti-Christian crusades against Jews and other Christians, why should we care what he thinks? He’s not infallible when he says that ya know!

“POPE CONDEMNS SECURITY FENCE”

So? Tell him to get out of his comfy city and summer palace and move Jerusalem. And he has to eat in a Jerusalem cafe every day. Then I’ll admire his pronouncement, even if I still disagree with him.

“No, you are a liar. It is YOU who do not agree with the Pope (who last I heard heads the church”

Yes, he heads the Church. BUT, he is not a dictator, nor is he infallible on temporal political matters. In fact, it is entirely possible that he is teaching 100% incorrect on the matter from God’s point of view. He is only infallible in certain situations relating to faith and morals under certain conditions. So…perhaps we should believe something because WE arrived at that conclusion. When the Pope says not to take communion in a Baptist church I’ll listen. On this…not so sure the authority exists.

Shalom

 

[Salvo]

Jay,

I won’t go into your first post, because it’s all been said already (and you admitedly didn’t read through all the posts prior).

jaydog77:

Smile guys, we don’t live there. Be happy 'bout that.

Actually, I have stayed there and am going back at the end off this year. And I am grateful to God I am able to do so. That’s what makes me happy.

jaydog77:

Although some quotes and headlines the human bomb defender quoted were quite strange.

I know you were probably trying out a weak attempt at humour, but you actually came off as quite ignorant and not at all funny.

jaydog77:

“Pope accuses Israel of humiliating Palestinians”
So? Boo hoo. Israel humiliates with their mean awful checkpoints, walls, and armed guards everywhere. Meanwhile, if only those martyrs would stop blowing themselves up they might not be needed…

See, here’s where you show an absolute lack of understanding about the church’s stance on human dignity. You have been so indoctrinated in the current “culture of death” that you are clueless about how the value of life and human rights directly impact the desire for freedom. In all cases where there has been an apartheid of one group subjugating and humiliating another, the church has condemned this humiliation as it realises it breeds violence and suffereing. Use your brain for a moment. Do you think being subjected to having your rights violated, subject to imprisonment or summary execution for the slightest perceived “offense” would make you rebel and lean towards violence? OK, now imagine it happened to your brother.

 

[Salvo]

jaydog77:

Jerusalem Patriarch condemns Israeli occupation
So? Who asked him? You might care, I don’t. (by the way I would respect that if you did). I didn’t ask past Popes who blessed anti-Christian crusades against Jews and other Christians, why should we care what he thinks? He’s not infallible when he says that ya know! …

He’s not infallible, just the leader of the church on earth. If you don’t want to follow him, you don’t need to. God gave you a free will to obey the church and its authority on earth or to reject Him and his church. You do so at your own peril.

jaydog77:

“POPE CONDEMNS SECURITY FENCE”
So? Tell him to get out of his comfy city and summer palace and move Jerusalem. And he has to eat in a Jerusalem cafe every day. Then I’ll admire his pronouncement, even if I still disagree with him…

You are obviously very young and don’t mind showing off your ignorance. But I’ll let you in on a little secret: the pope not only endured hard labour in a Polish work camp, but also lived through 7 years of genocide in Poland as well as a subsequent 30+ years of communist persecution. He’s put in his “dues” and knows a lot more about the world than you ever will in 3 lifetimes.

I know you Americaths like to pick out the “good parts” of the pope’s message when it makes you feel good and reject the rest. But there is a world outside of the US. And unfortunately for you, it may surprise you to know that the church heirarchy disagrees with a lot of what you think. No, the pope is not a dictator. But he does speak for the church on policies that directly affect his flock, specifically the Palestinian Christians. I understand people like you don’t take the church too seriously these days, but others of us do. So, try not to be too hard on us for it.

One more thing: palestine did exist approximately 2000 years ago when the Romans conquered it and threw the Jews out and renamed the land “Palestina”. I support Israel’s right to exist simply because the Jews of the world have shown over and over that as a people, they need a homeland, and the world owes them that. But I do not subscribe to any fundie version of their “right of return” to fulfill some biblical prophecy. As a decendant of the ancient Romans, I have just as much right to return to Palestina than some blond blue-eyed “Israeli”.

 

[Ghosty]

I want to point out that the Palestinians aren’t simply an amalgam of Arab personalities. Genetic tests have shown that, by and large, they have identical unique markers in the DNA with modern Jewish people. These same tests have been used to prove the “Jewishness” of the “Lost Tribes”, such as Ethiopian Jews.

The Palestinians are the Jewish people who remained in the area after the Roman persecution, eventually converting to Christianity and Islam. There has been intermarriage with other Semitic tribes from Arab areas, but historically the Palestinians ARE the “Jewish people”, albeit often of a different faith. To say that there was no Palestinian identity is absolutely false, as the region has never been uninhabited. It has passed through the hands of various empires, obviously, but the identity and the history of the people goes back to before the time of Christ. Who do you think has been keeping the Christian traditions alive in Jerusalem and Bethelem all these centuries?

 

[Salvo]

Ghosty:

I want to point out that the Palestinians aren’t simply an amalgam of Arab personalities. Genetic tests have shown that, by and large, they have identical unique markers in the DNA with modern Jewish people. These same tests have been used to prove the “Jewishness” of the “Lost Tribes”, such as Ethiopian Jews.

I’ve heard of this DNA sequence that ethnologists refer to affectionately as “the Jewish gene”. They traced it by comparing the DNA sequences of everyone with the last name Cohen (or any transliterated version thereof) since the name means “priest” and they supposedly descended from the priestly line (i.e. Sadducees). What they found is that this same sequence was much more prevalent in Ethiopian Felasha Jews. But more surpisingly, equally as prevalent in an African tribe called the Lemba (they definitely don’t look or act Jewish, but have always maintained their tribe came originally from Israel).

Hassidic Jews from Eastern Europe are some of the most ethnocentric and racist people you will ever come across. As a non-Jew, you are lucky if they will acknowledge your presence with a dismissive wave and shake of their head. Usually they just pretend you don’t exist and keep walking without making eye contact. For years they would not accept that Ethiopians could possibly be Jewish. Therre was a huge scandal in the late 80’s where Ethiopians, who were very grateful to be there, donated blood regularly. But the hospitals werre secretly throwing out their blood as soon as the day was over because the Hassidic Jews would never accept it. When the scancal broke, the Hassidic jews rallied in support of the decision holding up banners saying “Black! NOT Jewish!”

As for the Christians, as you said, most of them are absolutely descended from the original inhabitants. Just because they speak Arabic does not make them Arabs by boodline. They were forced to Arabicise through colonisation. Some of them are also descended from the crusaders as well, and have light skinned features (not unheard of to see Palestinians with light hair and blue eyes). But the Muslim Palestinans can be from anywhere basically (Yasser Arafat is of course born in Egypt for example). The Turks essentially “bussed them in” from all over the Ottoman empire to settle in the area. And of course 500 years prior the Arabs had swept up from Arabia.

 

[Deacon2006]

Salvo

You are obvilously a passionate man deeply concerned about justice and peace but I have not read a single post where you condem the root of Israel excesses; terrorism.

I have on the other hand seen your claim that some types of jews are most the racist people on earth but quite frankly that makes you sound like an anti-semtic bigot. I really hope that is not the case.

To quite rightly insist that the church deplores injustice were ever she finds it does not mean she has no interest in seeing justice for the Israeli people within secure borders.

I applaud all the efforts of church in trying to mitigate some of the most agressive retalitions of Israel however there is no denying the fact that only through the lifting of the terror siege is it possible to build good will.

The Palestinians started this lastest round of war because they were unprepared to negotiate an end to the conflict with Israel. The first Israeli casualties, came BEFORE Ariel Sharon’s visit to the Temple Mount let alone his election to PM.

It is quite telling to hear what Reem al-Rayashee, the 22 year-old mother of two infants who blew herself up at the Erez crossing point from Israel into Gaza taking four security guards with her and wounding seven others.

'“It was always my wish to turn my body into deadly shrapnel against the Zionists and knock on the doors of Heaven with the skulls of Zionists…I always wanted to be the first (Hamas) woman to carry out a martyrdom operation where parts of my body can fly all over.”

And of course I will never forget the actions of the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades that carried out the killing of a pregnant Israeli woman and her four children.

To suggest these acts don’t poison the good will for peace is deliberately insensitive and unchristian. To illustrate the full extent of just how poorly these tactics have worked I have enclosed this quote from Naomi Regan.

Two Islamic “heroes” opened fire on a car carrying a woman in her eighth month of pregnancy, along with her four little girls. They opened fire on the car, and when it spun out of control, they walked towards it and shot the woman and her daughters one by one. … I’m trying to envision the kind of people that could shoot a pregnant woman and an eleven, nine, seven and two year old. I’m trying. But all I come up with is Nazis. All I see are Auschwitz criminals. I guess that’s Islam. I guess that’s the way they honor their Prophet Mohammad. I guess that’s the honor they bring to their Allah.
If that’s what Islam teaches, it’s not a religion. It’s a sickness.

Rational people do not believe there will be peace in the middle east while the PA refuses to eliminate the criminal attacks against unarmed Israelis.

The pope doesn’t believe there will be justice arsing from terrorism I quote him again **Terrorism must be condemned in all its forms for it is not only a betrayal of our common humanity, but is absolutely incapable of laying the necessary political, moral and spiritual foundations for a people’s freedom and authentic self-determination., **

Peace and Justice is the reward for abandoning terrorism and not the fruit of terrorism. No matter how empathetic we might feel for those suffering it is never served by murder.

God Bless

 

[The_Dead_Bishop]

Zski01:

An aside, I have to say that I admire our Pope for doing his best to try to bring peace to the region with his visits, dialogues, etc… His dauntless efforts to reconcile Catholics with all groups (Christians and non-Christians like) to be open to dialogue is exactly what we need in the world today.

Dialogue? maybe it’s necessary…to a point… But please, God… let’s not give away the Faith for all times!! Instaurare Omnia In Christo!!! ( restore all things in Christ!!! )

 

[Salvo]

Deacon2006:

Salvo

You are obvilously a passionate man deeply concerned about justice and peace but I have not read a single post where you condem the root of Israel excesses; terrorism.

Hmm. you’re not a very good listener. I said I wholeheartedly agree with the church on this matter. And I already said how the pope and the church denounce terrorism in ALL forms (Israeli and Palestinian). Yes, of course terrorism on the part of the Palestinians must end. But so must Israeli state sponsored terrorism which BREEDS the Palestinian terrorism.

As I have already illustrated, your opinions contradict the church and pope on several issues here. But you seem all too willing to continue your errant train of thought. So be it.

I will be completely honest with you here: I really don’t care much for the Muslim Palestinians. I care for them as humans and for their well-being as much as I care for the Israelis. But I see them both as a bunch of snivling and squabbling children (very much like the staunch supporters of either side I might add). What I DO care about are the Christians living around there. We as Christians have a duty to safeguard and care for them in any way, and unfortunately for you, they happen to be Palestinian. They are the custodians of the Holy Land. The church thinks so, and so do I. Has that gotten through to you?

Deacon2006:

I have on the other hand seen your claim that some types of jews are most the racist people on earth but quite frankly that makes you sound like an anti-semtic bigot. I really hope that is not the case.

Well, coming from someone who sounds like a witless Americath moron, I’m not too bothered. See? Name-calling can be pretty childish, can’t it?

You really don’t know too much about the subject at all, do you? Even Israeli Sephardic Jews will complain how the Hassidic Ashkenazim are racist. That’s how they are, traditionally. Even immediately after the creation of the state of Israel, the Sephardim rallied against their racist policies back in the 50’s. Do some research before you open your mouth. It will save you a lot of credibility.

 

[Deacon2006]

Salvo

You don’t know anything about me, my ethnic or religious heritage, my education, my country of origin or my tireless support of my Christian brothers in the holy land; but I have come to know much about your speculation and narrow-minded prejudices.

Everything I have said in my posts is directed to ultimately alleviating the abuse of the Christian minorities in the Holy Land yet you so desperately want to pretend the opposite. Your last post even went so far as to accuse me of being an anti-Christian because the Holy Land Christians are Palestinians? With your repeated use of this type of unsubstantiated accusations I wouldn’t be so quick to label others as witless morons.

Your desire to create me into a straw man of every prejudice you have against Americans is truly illustrative of the destructive mentality that is so dominate in the Holy Land.

I am worried that your disparaging comments around national identities and religious practices of Hassidic Jews are symptomatic of a much deeper wound in your spiritual formation and a cry for help. If that is true I pray that you find the healing you require.

God Bless

PS I will not repond to anymore of your posts, I give you the last word on this matter.

 

[jaydog77]

Wow, this guy likes to get personal when he disagrees with you!

“You are obviously very young and don’t mind showing off your ignorance (Ouch!). But I’ll let you in on a little secret: the pope not only endured hard labour in a Polish work camp, but also lived through 7 years of genocide in Poland as well as a subsequent 30+ years of communist persecution. He’s put in his “dues” and knows a lot more about the world than you ever will in 3 lifetimes”

“He’s not infallible, just the leader of the church on earth. If you don’t want to follow him, you don’t need to. God gave you a free will to obey the church and its authority on earth or to reject Him and his church. You do so at your own peril.”

Those 2 quotes caught my eye, so I will give my ignorant commentary on both (although I wish you weren’t so angry. Its not good for your ticker).

That’s great that the Pope had a tough life. Trials in life purify the spirit and its part of what makes him the really nice guy he is. But interestingly, those trials were a loooong time ago. Now its not such a life or death struggle is it. Reminds me of my father who was a political prisoner of Castro’s in th 1960’s and barely made it out alive. He came here, became a millionare, and is a bit “soft” now. Absolutely maintains the character strength his trials gave him, but if he sat on a high horse and judged a group of people who are simply defending themselves against the side that started it (the only thing I’m concerned with, baring Israel adopting Islam’s standards and tactics for warfare), the fact that he had a real tough life and sympathized with “oppressed” people wouldn’t make him right.

As far as ignoring the fact that he’s the head of the Church at my peril, I don’t ignore him. He is wrong and I disagree with him. I’m allowed. That won’t keep me out of heaven (he can’t) and that won’t lengthen my stay in purgatory (if I’m lucky enough to go there). This is a temporal matter that does not have to do with his authority on this earth. My father is the head of my family despite the fact that I now have my own (I’m not so young, angry man!), and the fact that I sometimes have (and do) tell him he’s wrong and “disobey” him doesn’t mean I lose my status in his family. Again, the Pope’s authority over me is what is expected for me to believe to be a Catholic and be a member of the church. Taking sides in a political conflict is not something he can expect of me. If he could, I guess only supporters of Crusader tactics would be in heaven.

As far as my comment about supporting the human bombs, its an observation. Aside from the fact that the arab colonists started it (1 thousand years after they stole the land from the Christians), the tactics they use (their fruit) shows their side (the tree) to be rotten. Whoever sends pregnant women to be suicide bombers because they knew those “stupid” jews wouldn’t demean her as much in the checkpoints proves the necessity of Israel’s tactics.

Arafat makes it too easy to side with those “mean racist jews”.
Oh, and they’re allowed to be mean and racist. Its their country.

 

[Salvo]

Deacon2006:

You don’t know anything about me, my ethnic or religious heritage, my education, my country of origin or my tireless support of my Christian brothers in the holy land; but I have come to know much about your speculation and narrow-minded prejudices. .

Oh, so now the Palestinian Christians are your brothers. Great. Only 3 posts ago they were all terrorists. Glad you had the change of heart.

Deacon2006:

Everything I have said in my posts is directed to ultimately alleviating the abuse of the Christian minorities in the Holy Land yet you so desperately want to pretend the opposite. .

No, actually by blindly supporting Israel you are ultimately alleviating the Sharon government and subsequently US interests. You have been brainwashed. There is no “trickle-down” at work here which will eventually alleviate the abuse of Christians, which as I have shown, is solely taking place at the hands of Israelis at this point.

Deacon2006:

With your repeated use of this type of unsubstantiated accusations I wouldn’t be so quick to label others as witless morons…

I used that particular phrase to show you that your own ad hominem attacks on me by calling me a racist etc were childish and uncalled for and said as much.

Deacon2006:

I am worried that your disparaging comments around national identities and religious practices of Hassidic Jews are symptomatic of a much deeper wound in your spiritual formation and a cry for help. If that is true I pray that you find the healing you require. .

And I’m worried about people who claim to be clergy and religious in Christ’s church, who go around pushing other secular agendas which ultimately harm Christians in this world. I worry about the pro-abortion nuns, the Paedophile priests, the Bishops who turn a blind eye to evil, and the deacons who don’t listen to Pope which have all come to infest the body of the church like a pestulence. However, I am always appreciative of prayers. And I will also pray for you that you listen to the Pope and the church on this particular issue instead of the propaganda that you have been brainwashed. And I sincerely invite you to join me in the Holy Land this Christmas so that you can actually talk to the Christians (Western and Palestinian) and see first hand, and learn about the situation that you pontificate so unjustly about.

Deacon2006:

PS I will not repond to anymore of your posts, I give you the last word on this matter .

Noted and appreciated.

 

[Ghosty]

As far as my comment about supporting the human bombs, its an observation. Aside from the fact that the arab colonists started it (1 thousand years after they stole the land from the Christians)

What “arab colonialists”? Perhaps you mean “Muslim colonialists”, because the Palestinian Christians are Arabs. The Palestinian Christians who are today defending there homeland from Israeli occupation are the descendants of the Palestinian Christians who defended their holy places from Muslim invasions, who were themselves descendants of the Palestinian Christians who were the Jewish disciples of Christ. Today there are Arab Muslims, Arab Christians, and Arab Jews (in fact the majority of Israeli Jews are Arabs last I heard). To imply that the “Arabs” displaced the “Christians” shows a huge misunderstanding of what the term Arab means, at least in modern context. Arab is a socio-lingual term, not a race or creed. Many, if not most, Arabs today do not claim direct descent from the ancient Arab Tribes, and espescially not the Palestinians, who are largely from ancient Jewish stock and other ethnicities. I’ve heard more than a few Palestinians make dispariging remarks about “those bedouins”.

EDIT: Incidently, I had an amusing conversation with a Persian (Iranian) woman once about the Palestinians and Israelis, and she remarked at how amazed she was that those “brothers and sisters” could keep up such a blood feud. Many of the Jews in Iran are Arabs, so there is little concept of seperation between the two terms for them The problem is that we view the Israelis through our Western lense, and think of the Azkenazim minority as “the Jews”.

 

[Salvo]

jaydog77:

Reminds me of my father who was a political prisoner of Castro’s in th 1960’s and barely made it out alive. He came here, became a millionare, and is a bit “soft” now.

However embarassingly “soft” or dough-like your father has become has absolutely no bearing on this conversation. We are talking about the Pope, and there is no comparing him to anyone in your family, unless one of them has the power to speak infallibly. The fence is a “temporal” matter, yes. But the larger issue of human rights is a moral issue. And you would do well to listen to the Pope on moral issues. Particularly this Pope.

jaydog77:

As far as ignoring the fact that he’s the head of the Church at my peril, I don’t ignore him. He is wrong and I disagree with him.

That’s a pretty brash and impudent statement. But you are definitely entitled to your opinions. And that’s exactly all you seem to come up with; opinions. Nothing more.

jaydog77:

As far as my comment about supporting the human bombs, its an observation.

No, you made a crude, insensitive and tasteless comment calling me a human bomb supporter. I do not support Muslims, nor human bombs (and I’ll reiterate that NO Palestinian Christian has ever been involved with a suicide bombing, nor will it ever happen).

If I mistook your age, it was due to your immature attitude, brashness and arrogance which I would only associate with someone who was young, particularly on matters concerning the Pope. But upon inspection of your nick “Jaydog77”, I can infer you are sommeone in your late 20’s who is still trying to seem “cool” by using buzz-words which died out 10 years ago. In any case, let us hope your new family and progeny learn more respect for him and the church than you appear able to offer.

 

[Salvo]

Ghosty:

Many, if not most, Arabs today do not claim direct descent from the ancient Arab Tribes, and espescially not the Palestinians, who are largely from ancient Jewish stock and other ethnicities. I’ve heard more than a few Palestinians make dispariging remarks about “those bedouins”.

Absolutely correct. Lebanese in particular, although linguistically Arab, are very proud that they are the descendants of the Phoenicians who once ruled the Mediterranean. Syrian Christians are proud of being Syriac and not Arab, and some continue to use the Aramaic language spoken by Our Lord. Egyptian Copts have preserved their identity (although few speak Coptic) after centuries of persecution at the hands of Arabs even up to this day. Yet when asked by an American off the street, all of them would most likely say they are “Arab”, while in their own countries or among other Arabs, they make the distinction. (Incidentally, Beirut has always been seen as the “Paris of the Middle East” and the worst thing they can call someone who appears to be uncouth is “Bedu” or Beduin.

Ghosty:

The problem is that we view the Israelis through our Western lense, and think of the Azkenazim minority as “the Jews”.

There’s a reason for that: that’s how the Israelis want it. Ever since Israel was founded, politics, business and international relations were dominated by the Ashkenazim. They felt that since they were the ones who made all the sacrifices during World War II, were the most vocal for the creation of the state of Israel, and had already established the diplomatic and business ties in Europe and America that **THEY **should be the ones to represent the State of Israel.

This quote comes from straight from the Jewish Virtual Library: “Today, tensions remain between Ashkenazim and Sephardim in Israel because of the poor treatment the latter received and the long, difficult road Sephardic Jews have had to travel to approach parity in society. Though they have not yet achieved equality, Sephardic Jews increasingly occupy positions of prestige and influence.”

But of course everyone knows there’s no problem with racism in Israel at all…right? And for anyone to even suggest that certain segments of Israeli society are racist must mean that the person who brings it up is the actual biggot. Right?

 

[jaydog77]

“unless one of them has the power to speak infallibly”

The Pope has no such power. The Pope has no powers. That would be a pagan belief. The Pope is prevented from speaking in error or contradiction to Scripture when speaking on matters of faith. But he has no powers.

No I didn’t say Israel had no racism. I said that’s Israel’s problem because its their country. But racist Israeli’s allow Arab Muslims and Christians to live free within their boarders. Yet “Palestinian” land must be Jew free. Every ancient Jewish community that resides in those lands has been cleansed of its Jewishness and their religious sites desecrated. In the “West Bank” you’re not allowed to preach Christianity. Compared to Israel, where their Supreme Court can be petitioned by enemies sworn to Israel’s destruction for due process and get it. I’ll take Israeli “racism” over the other side any day. Again, it’s a war zone. The few Christians that remain in the holy land are in it. They are right in the middle of it. They are abused by both sides. But I wonder, imagine 2 worlds. 1 world is where Israel had all that land, and 1 world is where Israel picked up and left them all alone and they got their own country. (actually Palestinians did get their country after the British mandate, its called Jordan). In which world would a Christian be free to preach the Gospel? In which world could a Christian raise a Christian family and go to a Christian school and worship freely? I’d say the 1st world. Also, you (and the Pope) may think you’re big crusaders (little c) for the Christians of the holy land, but unfortunately for you there are thousands of Christians who go there every year and say the exact opposite of what you say about “mean” IDF soldiers and the Jewish people. Maybe they don’t like you because they know you can’t stand them. For all I know you’re running around blocking Israeli bulldozers from destroying homes with weapons smuggling tunnels underneath.

Lastly, on my nick name on this thing. It is a reference to an event in high school and is an inside joke which makes the login easy to remember. Its not a late 20’s guy attempt at trying to be hip.

Again, you’re very touchy, seemingly angry, and very personal in your attacks. Usually when I have discussions with people the ones who get personal and/or lose their temper are the ones who support the following people or beliefs:

• Stalin, Castro & Mao
• Socialism/Communism
• Muslims (you guys have the same arguments about Israel, and ignore the real atrocities in that region)
• Protestants who don’t like Catholics

One last friendly reminder about the Pope worship thing you have going on, its important to remember that they are just as fallible as you and I and when they aren’t speaking in the narrowly defined circumstances where they can’t speak incorrectly (His views on Israel do not fall into that category) they can be wrong! If you listen to someone just because they’re the Pope, then your blind following of a fallible man would lead you astray. When Peter wouldn’t eat with the Gentile believers, Paul had to call him out on it. Imagine if everyone blindly followed the first Pope?!? Gentile Christians would be 2nd class citizens in the Church.

 

[Salvo]

jaydog77:

The Pope has no such power. The Pope has no powers.

Is this what they’re teaching in heretic school these days? Anyone who claims to be Catholic yet who does not know the powers bestowed on the vicar of Christ reallly shows the sad state of the Americaths. I’m truly at a loss here. What else can I say?

jaydog77:
In the “West Bank” you’re not allowed to preach Christianity.

Pretty much everything you said was usubstantiated garbage and I really can’t be bothered to go into it. Suffice it to say, you are dead wrong. 2 years ago when I was in Bethlehem (located on the West Bank just so you know) I not only heard the gospel at the church of the Nativity, the Christian community centre, as well as along many other sites. Wherever you are getting your information, you are wrong. Just wrong.

jaydog77:

Again, you’re very touchy, seemingly angry, and very personal in your attacks. Usually when I have discussions with people the ones who get personal and/or lose their temper are the ones who support the following people or beliefs:

• Stalin, Castro & Mao
• Socialism/Communism
• Muslims (you guys have the same arguments about Israel, and ignore the real atrocities in that region)
• Protestants who don’t like Catholics

Well, maybe willful ignorance makes me agitated. Maybe your disrespect for the Pope and ignroance on Catholic doctrine concerning the papacy irks me. Maybe your personal attacks calling me a “Human bomb supporter” “T” me off.

It’s funny how you try to associate me with the clear enemies of Catholism, namely Mao, Stalin and Castro. In actuality, your thoughts and opinions are far closer to the commies than you care to admit. Maybe you have a personal vendetta against this particular pope because he went to Cuba and spoke to Castro. Or maybe the whole Elian Gonzalez thing got your panties in a permanent bunch.

Just so you know, I have by the grace of God survived living among Muslims, living through a Communist revolution and have been to Israel and Palestine, which is why I feel I can speak to some degree on these subjects. And I have just realised that I really don’t need to listen to you or your errant opinions on this subject.

But seriously, you have severely imbalanced views on the church and on the papacy. If you don’t mind having your views corrected, I would suggest you pose your errant observations and opinions on the Apologetics thread. And with that, this will be my last post to you on this thread.

 

[jaydog77]

A-ha! Who is the heretic??? From the Catholic encyclopedia…

"Infallibility

In general, exemption or immunity from liability to error or failure; in particular in theological usage, the supernatural prerogative by which the Church of Christ is, by a special Divine assistance, preserved from liability to error in her definitive dogmatic teaching regarding matters of faith and morals"

From our friend Mr Keating:

“Other people wonder how infallibility could exist if some popes disagreed with others. This, too, shows an inaccurate understanding of infallibility, which applies only to solemn, official teachings on faith and morals, not to disciplinary decisions or even to unofficial comments on faith and morals. A pope’s private theological opinions are not infallible, only what he solemnly defines is considered to be infallible teaching…What infallibility does do is prevent a pope from solemnly and formally teaching as “truth” something that is, in fact, error. It does not help him know what is true, nor does it “inspire” him to teach what is true.”

So, in summary. He has NO powers. Zero. Zilch. That is heresy, flat out wrong, contradicted by INFALLIBLE PAPAL PRONOUNCEMENTS and Church Councils. Now what is the true definition of infallible pronouncements?
“Faithfully adhering, therefore, to the tradition inherited from the beginning of the Christian Faith, we, with the approbation of the sacred council, for the glory of God our Saviour, for the exaltation of the Catholic religion, and the salvation of Christian peoples, teach and define, as a Divinely revealed dogma, that the Roman pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra, that is, when he, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, decides that a doctrine concerning faith or morals is to be held by the entire Church, he possesses, in consequence of the Divine aid promised him in St. Peter, that infallibility with which the Divine Saviour wished to have His Church furnished for the definition of doctrine concerning faith or morals; and that such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves, and not in consequence of the Church’s consent, irreformable.” (Vatican I)

“To these definitions the assent of the Church can never be wanting, on account of the activity of that same Holy Spirit, by which the whole flock of Christ is preserved and progresses in unity of faith.” (Vatican II)

The Holy Sprit is not providing new public revelation through the Church (that would be heresy), it is preventing the teaching of error. In any case, there are no ex-cathedra papal pronouncements on the Israeli-Arab land dispute, nor the tactics they are employing. So, I’m allowed to disagree with him while at the same time having an enormous amount of respect for him. He is a great FALLIBLE man.

Just to be clear, let me expand on the preach the gospel statement I made (I thought it was clear). You can preach the gospel in church in the west bank. But why don’t you go door to door after friday prayers and try to get Muslims to accept Christ as savior and not mere prophet. Tell them their holy book is a lie and their final prophet a liar. If you come back alive I will be impressed.

 

[Ghosty]

You can preach the gospel in church in the west bank. But why don’t you go door to door after friday prayers and try to get Muslims to accept Christ as savior and not mere prophet.

I believe that it’s legal to do just that in the West Bank, though perhaps not socially acceptable. On the other hand, I believe it’s illegal in Israel to preach to Jews for conversion purposes. Religious Christians, including Catholics, have had their visas revoked for such things. I’m unsure if it’s a law or just a common legal practice, however.

 

[Salvo]

Ghosty:

I believe that it’s legal to do just that in the West Bank, though perhaps not socially acceptable. On the other hand, I believe it’s illegal in Israel to preach to Jews for conversion purposes. Religious Christians, including Catholics, have had their visas revoked for such things. I’m unsure if it’s a law or just a common legal practice, however.

Ghosty,

You are of course correctl. That guy is just too misinformed to deal with on this subject, so I gave up. First he cries, “Christians can’t even preach the gospel in the West Bank!!!” Then when I tell him that is absolutely not true, he slinks out of the argument by trying to change it saying, “err…uh…duh…what I really meant was that you can’t go door to door and proseletise!! That’s what I meant!” And of course, that is of course a moronic statement as Proseletisation of Jews is a PUNISHABLE offense in Israel. You cannot go door-to-door in Israel and “preach the gospel” to Jews under law. The “anti-missionary” law passed by the Orthodox Jews is so nebulous that technically a Christian could be prosecuted for simply sending a bible through the mail.

But yes, the Palestinian Authority has almost the same “anti-missionary” law. Thus far, the only real groups who are affected by this law (in both the PA and Israel) are the Protestant Fundies and the Jehova’s Witnesses. They love to create “martyrs”, usually mentally challenged/unballanced members who go into crowded areas of Jews or Muslims with bullhorns or loud-speakers and create chaos by disrupting the activities (market, foot-traffic etc) that upset people until the authorities arrive and arrest him. And once again, the Fundie-Christian propaganda loves to condemn the PA for this law, but is always conspicuously silent of the fact that not only did it originate in Israel, but it is still a law.

The Catholic and Orthodox Christians of Israel and the PA are definitely more reasonable on this issue. Just like Jesus said, “Preach to all who will listen.” They are very visible and any Muslim or Jew who wants to hear the gospel knows exactly where to go. They don’t need to go “door-to-door” disturbing people’s lives and pushing a message or agenda on them. Let’s be honest, how many times have we secretly wished there was an anti-missionary law when we see the Jehova’s Witnesses approaching our front porch…?