Who "controls" the Holy Land anymore?

[jaydog77]

That’s funny. Jews for Jesus seems to have no problems preaching to Jews (both secular and Orthodox). They have an office, Israeli believers, and as far as they’re concerned its totally legal. They just got tax exempt status there as well.

Again, as far as preaching the gospel, you say its only frowned upon in the west bank. Yet why do Palestinian mulsims who convert go to Israel to seek asylum? hmmmmmmm

 

[jaydog77]

Why would you want an anti-missionary law here? You’re afraid to preach the truth to the Jehovas witness cultists?

Even if its illegal to preach the gospel door-to-door in Israel at least they only arrest you or take away your visa. If it is true, it is after all (like I’ve said before) their country. Sure beats lynch mobs who kill you for abandoning Islam or encouraging others to do so.(They’re only following their holy book after all).

Freedom is only real if it applies to people who disagree with you. Even the fundies and other wackos that you don’t like.

I take it by the lack of response that you now understand the church’s teaching on the Pope and infallibility.

 

[Ghosty]

Sure beats lynch mobs who kill you for abandoning Islam or encouraging others to do so.(They’re only following their holy book after all).

Got any citations for this happening in Palestine? Incidently, one can be physically attacked in both Israel and Palestine for expressing the wrong religious views, by Orthodox Jews on one side and fundamentalist Muslims on the other. It is Israel, however, that does not recognize non-Orthodox Jewish weddings within its borders; there is no such thing as a civil marriage. Israel is not, and doesn’t claim to be, a country about religious freedom, but is rather a country for preserving Judaism. The PA, on the other hand, is notoriously secular, which is why the Muslim terrorist groups attack the PA as well as Israel; when the PLO was formed it stated that its primary goal was the formation of a non-religious government. The PA, while extremely corrupt, has never identified itself as a religious organization. In fact, Hamas has violently attacked the PA for being non-religious in character. Even the most basic research on Hamas shows that it began in response to the PLO’s secular ideology.

Taken from a 2001 TIME magazine article:

Hamas emerged as a direct rival to the secular in PLO in the West Bank and Gaza in 1987. Whereas the Israeli military authorities had banned PLO organizations from operating openly there, it consciously allowed Hamas — whose activities did not at that time include armed actions — to flourish as an alternative to Arafat, who remained Israel’s primary enemy at the time. But Hamas’s active role in the first intifada led to Israel banning the organization in 1989 and imprisoning its founder, Sheikh Ahmed Yassin.

I’m strongly against the PA and Hamas, but statements that imply that the PA has some religious agenda flies in the face of very reason for the existance of Hamas. While it can’t be said that the PA has done a good job of protecting Christians, it can’t be said that the PA has done a good job of protecting anyone; corruption and irrelevancy do not equate to religious persecution. When speaking about religious fundamentalists, it’s wise not to lump them in with the secular government that they cut their teeth on violently combating.

 

[Salvo]

Ghosty:

Got any citations for this happening in Palestine?

I don’t think he will be able to produce this, since he has thus far been able to produce anything to support his errant statements. Because he is just plain wrong here. In OTHER Muslim countries throughout the Middle-East and throughout the world the “crime” of apostasy is punishable by death. This is particularly true in Pakistan. And while other Muslim countries do not have the crime specifically punishable by death, extra-judiciary killings for this are common (Egypt for example). But no, there are no lynch mobs killing former Muslims who become Christian in the PA. That guy is simply mixing in his own jingoistic slant to his preconceived propaganda on the subject.

Ghosty:

I’m strongly against the PA and Hamas, but statements that imply that the PA has some religious agenda flies in the face of very reason for the existance of Hamas. While it can’t be said that the PA has done a good job of protecting Christians, it can’t be said that the PA has done a good job of protecting anyone; corruption and irrelevancy do not equate to religious persecution. When speaking about religious fundamentalists, it’s wise not to lump them in with the secular government that they cut their teeth on violently combating.

Absolutely. I’m not a supporter of YA and the PA either. I think they are just as stubborn and obstinant as the Likud party. But Hamas is an unholy alternative that we just cannot afford in the world. I think it is sad that so many people are so ignorant about this region. They think all Arabs must be Muslim and therefore ruling under Islamic regimes. The reality is Tunisia, Libya, PA, Syria and up till last year, Iraq are entirely secular regimes which have not only tried to distance themselves from Sharia and Islamic law influencing their regimes, but have at times persecuted the Muslim factions within their own countries.

I have to say Ghosty, I am really impressed with your knowledge here. And I know people may think I’m saying this because we appear to see eye-to-eye on this issue, but the reality is that anyone with half a brain who does the slightest bit of research here will see that it’s not as cut-and-dry as “Israel awlays good, Palestinians always bad”. This is entirely self-evident when looking at how the Christians are faring there.

Anyway, you definitely have a lot more patience than I do to carry on a conversation with that guy. :bowdown2: :tiphat:

 

[Ghosty]

Salvo: I appreciate your support and kind words. Israel and Palestine are very important subjects to me, both religiously and politically. I came to the Church through sincere calling towards Orthodox Judaism (I was initially an atheist), and I did a LOT of study on the subjects of Zionism and Israel. You could say that, after my faith, it’s the most important topic to me. While I try to be patient when discussing the issue, I often have to take a break from it because of the sheer depressing and frustrating reality of the debates. I actually started out as a Zionist, and through tons of study came to reject the position as a poor political ideology, and later as a blasphemy against my faith (a view I share with many Orthodox Jews). I’ve been on both sides of the argument, and it saddens me to see how hard it is for some people to simply see the very basic reality of the situation. Some many of the “facts” that people throw around, such as the “defensive” posture of Israel in the “Independence War”, are so easily countered by Israel’s own official history and records, yet people buy into the myth that even Israel has largely abandoned rather than accept reality. I think my patience comes more from the fact that I’ve been on the other side of the debate, and that it took me years to fully understand the situation, rather than any special quality of my own.

For reference, there was a very informative interview with, IIRC, the Archbishop of Jerusalem (or some bishop at least). He had a very interesting perspective, and some scathing (if muted) things to say about both sides. He made it very clear, however, that Israel is NOT the friend of Christian Palestinians, and that many of the worst abuses of Christianity and Christian Holy Sites has been by Israel (he specifically brought up their assault on the Church of the Nativity, providing a perspective not often heard in the U.S. about that situation). He certainly wasn’t friendly to the PA either, however, and it was refreshing to hear something other than a “black and white” portrayal of the situation. His main statements were against the “Security Wall” (insofar as it oversteps the Green Line) and the settlements, however, which I feel is exactly as it should be. I believe this aired on the World Over Live, but I’m not sure; I’ll see if I can find it.

 

[Salvo]

Ghosty:

Salvo: I appreciate your support and kind words. Israel and Palestine are very important subjects to me, both religiously and politically. I came to the Church through sincere calling towards Orthodox Judaism (I was initially an atheist), and I did a LOT of study on the subjects of Zionism and Israel. You could say that, after my faith, it’s the most important topic to me. While I try to be patient when discussing the issue, I often have to take a break from it because of the sheer depressing and frustrating reality of the debates. I actually started out as a Zionist, and through tons of study came to reject the position as a poor political ideology, and later as a blasphemy against my faith (a view I share with many Orthodox Jews). I’ve been on both sides of the argument, and it saddens me to see how hard it is for some people to simply see the very basic reality of the situation. Some many of the “facts” that people throw around, such as the “defensive” posture of Israel in the “Independence War”, are so easily countered by Israel’s own official history and records, yet people buy into the myth that even Israel has largely abandoned rather than accept reality. I think my patience comes more from the fact that I’ve been on the other side of the debate, and that it took me years to fully understand the situation, rather than any special quality of my own.

Wow. Great story. I think I mentioned at the begining of this thread that I used to support Israel 100% as well. Because I had lived among Muslims, I knew what Islamic preaching and fanaticism bring. And I thought the only way to combat this would be for Israel to be the “Palladin” in the region and teach them all a lesson. But what about the Christians there? “Well, they should all just step aside and let Israel do their business and just not interfere. It will all work out in the end. You’ll see.”

It was really a very slow process of disillusionment for me. When other middle-Eastern Christians would bring up the subject, I’d mentally dismiss them as being too close to the subject. It was only around the year 2000 that my mind began to accept the fact that there might be more to this argument. The more I saw events unfold, the more I could clearly see that Israel didn’t have anyone’s best interest at hand. And then I began to actually listen to the Israelis and what they were saying about their actions. Never an apologies, never any excuses. Just this is what is going to happen and they will have to deal with it. When I saw the seige of Bethlehem blow by blow, I was shocked at the wonton destruction being caused by the Israelis. Not only that, the fact that so many innocent Christians were being killed so matter of factly. And the international community, save the Vatican, did nothing.

I’d be hard pressed to find any heroes here.