Who created God?

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ddarko said:
This is not my discussion, but I would just like to point out the gaping hole in your logic.

Even if you can explain away how the concept of God came in to being (fiction, imagination, stories etc), it still does not mean God does not exist. You are committing what is known as the genetic fallacy.

So the answer to your question in short is even if what you say is true (I think if you ever took a course on exegesis and biblical hermeneutics you would know how stupid it is to hold your position), YES, God still exists and its a perfectly rational position to hold.

God Bless 🙂
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Notice I said ‘Bible God’ not the ‘Great Mysterious Source of the Universe’ 😛

I try to distinguish between the Creator and the character known as God in the Bible.

But is it really so stupid to think that the ‘Bible God’ is human creation just like the numerous other mythological gods of old.

Why does He get a special exemption?

Why wreck a good story by insisting that He is actually real?
 
Vimy_Ridge said:
Notice I said ‘Bible God’ not the ‘Great Mysterious Source of the Universe’ 😛

I try to distinguish between the Creator and the character known as God in the Bible.

But is it really so stupid to think that the ‘Bible God’ is human creation just like the numerous other mythological gods of old.

Why does He get a special exemption?

Why wreck a good story by insisting that He is actually real?
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The fallacy still applies to what you said regardless of it being a ‘‘biblical’’ God or not 🙂 Being able to explain how a Christian concept of God came in to being is not evidence against a Christian God. That would be the fallacy you are committing.

The ‘‘numerous other mythological gods’’ suffer from concepts of God that cannot be held up by a rational person. For an example, most religions of those mythologies have pantheistic Gods which result in logical problems when they meet philosophy. In summary, the concept of God in those mythologies are either morally/theologically/philosophically or logically inadequate. That is why they have been discarded. The Christian God does not suffer these problems and probably is a sign that he is the one true God.

This is not really about ruining a story. I also do not know how a story is ruined if it really happened. But if a story is real, it would be shame if you didn’t believe it really happened anyway 🙂

God Bless 🙂
 
ddarko said:
This is not really about ruining a story. I also do not know how a story is ruined if it really happened. But if a story is real, it would be shame if you didn’t believe it really happened anyway 🙂

God Bless 🙂
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Yeah but if the whole story is true then it would be a horrible tragedy seeing as the story ends with the vast majority of people being thrown into a lake of fire and suffering eternal torment. 😦

It’s rather mean spirited to hope that the Bible tells a true story. Don’t ya think?
 
Vimy_Ridge said:
Yeah but if the whole story is true then it would be a horrible tragedy seeing as the story ends with the vast majority of people being thrown into a lake of fire and suffering eternal torment. 😦

It’s rather mean spirited to hope that the Bible tells a true story. Don’t ya think?
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Haha not really. I think you are under the wrong impression of what hell is. Hell is a place where a certain group of people get exactly what they asked for. God loves them but their nature has become so warped from what it truly should be that everything feels like torment.

The best analogy I could give (which I mentioned in another thread on this forum) is that of sexual morality. God in his love has revealed the true nature of how Sexual actions should occur. For someone who has lead a sexually immoral life, this is just torment. The immoral condition has warped their true nature that what is good seems like torture. For them the question becomes why is God torturing me with these rules. Hell is just the ultimate end of this warped nature. The nature of a man in hell is so different from his true nature that God’s love feels like torment. And its a free choice made by people that lead them there in the first place.

So in short, I think its justice and in a way, God is giving people what they ask :). So its almost a poetic ending, everyone gets what they want. The ones in hell just realize that what they asked/strived for is not the most pleasant. Besides, it would be logically incorrect to not believe in the story because the ending is too scary/mean and doesn’t make you feel good ;).

God Bless 🙂
 
ddarko said:
Technically he did that once by sending his only son. If he did that again, you would just rationalize to convince yourself that he is not God. There are miracles that happen to people all the time. And as you are thinking right now, oh those are just people being fooled etc etc. I think the point is, for someone not biased or intellectually incapacitated due to pride or something, there is enough evidence to believe. If you won’t believe with what is available, you most likely won’t anyways.
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I don’t think it is laudable nor desirable to set faith or belief above knowledge and investigation.
There are truths outside of science. The truth of Science it self cannot be grounded in science itself. It appears to me that you are one of those people who think Science is the ultimate truth machine which is a very irrational position to hold. So quiet honestly, maybe you should revisit the thought process you had when you were 4 years old because it appears to me like you are still basing your judgment on childhood logic 🙂
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God Bless 🙂
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The only logical statements I’ve heard here or anywhere else on God are so obviously fallacious that one hardly knows where to begin arguing with them.
 
Moonstruck888 said:
I don’t think it is laudable nor desirable to set faith or belief above knowledge and investigation.
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Don’t get confused here. NO ones saying knowledge is NOT important. The problem is when you put observation/verification based knowledge as higher value than knowledge that cannot be verified. That is an irrational position to hold and one that many modern scientist tend to love. Irony is that even Science it self cannot be verified this way.
Moonstruck888 said:
The only logical statements I’ve heard here or anywhere else on God are so obviously fallacious that one hardly knows where to begin arguing with them.
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Obviously fallacious? Why don’t you state some of these fallacies so that we know they are fallacious for sure. 🙂

A major problem present in many today is that they lack a good understanding of philosophy and sometimes logic. The problem is compounded by people tending to hold the view that science is the ultimate truth machine. Thus, by taking this irrational position, many look at these arguments with a bias. In truth, all the arguments are logically iron clad. The only way to debate them is to debate the truth of the premises which are obviously not 100% provable. So to even say that these arguments are fallacious is a big logical fallacy in it self. One can only say that I am not sure I have much faith in the premises.

Richard Dawkins for an example argued in his book God delusion why many of the arguments for God ‘‘FAIL’’. The problem was that his arguments were logically flawed and no logician or philosopher would consider any of his arguments credible. So if you are someone in his boat and have the same arguments, obviously it is you who is suffering from a fallacious position. Only way to know this is if you actually present your argument as to why its fallacious.

As far as I know, there are no arguments that can prove with certainty that the main arguments FOR A GOD (Kallam Cosmological Argument, Argument from morality, Fine tuning argument, Ontological argument etc) are false. So I am very interested to hear your arguments 🙂

God Bless 🙂
 
Vimy_Ridge said:
Most people don’t ask to be burned in fire while surrounded by stinky demons my friend.

tldm.org/News8/realityofhell.htm
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As ‘‘Cooldude’’ pointed out, it wasn’t literal. You seem to have skipped the rest of my post which explained in more detail what I meant. Would appreciate it if you took the time to read the whole post and not just the first two lines 🙂

God Bless 🙂
 
coolduude said:
He wasn’t being literal. What he’s basically saying is that people send themselves to hell by their own free will, in other words ‘asking for it’.
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Well here is the dilemma then. Can you really imagine that there is anyone so evil and stupid that they would choose Hell over an all good God and paradise? I can’t imagine that anyone would really choose that. I think the Bible is pretty clear that most people go to Hell because they are not one of the Elect.
 
Vimy_Ridge said:
Well here is the dilemma then. Can you really imagine that there is anyone so evil and stupid that they would choose Hell over an all good God and paradise? I can’t imagine that anyone would really choose that. I think the Bible is pretty clear that most people go to Hell because they are not one of the Elect.
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Elect? Are you a Calvinist?

Anyway, it’s not like they say 'I want to go to hell so I’m gonna go kill someone". It’s not like that at all. I think the real problem is that most people don’t take sin seriously. They get everything they want in this life- be it pleasure or material goods- that they think they’ll get what they want when they die i.e., go to Heaven. But God doesn’t operate like we do. He is all just and sends the people to hell who rightly deserve it. So people do send themselves to hell because really, they think their sins won’t stick with them when they die. They ignore it all basically.
 
ddarko said:
As ‘‘Cooldude’’ pointed out, it wasn’t literal. You seem to have skipped the rest of my post which explained in more detail what I meant. Would appreciate it if you took the time to read the whole post and not just the first two lines 🙂

God Bless 🙂
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I read it all actually. I just wanted to focus on your point about choosing Hell. People may choose to reject Christianity and they may choose to live an immoral life but ultimately it is God who made Hell and it is God who made up the rule that people who don’t believe and follow Him will go there. Alot of what you said is just an old attempt to let God of the hook and put all the blame on man, in my opinion.
 
Vimy_Ridge said:
Well here is the dilemma then. Can you really imagine that there is anyone so evil and stupid that they would choose Hell over an all good God and paradise? I can’t imagine that anyone would really choose that. I think the Bible is pretty clear that most people go to Hell because they are not one of the Elect.
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Seriously, read the rest of my post my friend. The torture faced in hell is not because God does not love them but its indeed because he does. The more you sin, the more fallen the human nature becomes. Hell is the ultimate end of this nature. Everything good just feels bad and a torture. As for your comment on who would be stupid enough to choose hell and refuse a all good God, you should be able to answer that question much better than I can.

About your ‘‘elect’’ philosophy, as far as I know the Bible does not agree with you. the idea that people are predestined to hell is considered to be a heresy. You choose where you wanna go with your own free will.

God Bless 🙂
 
coolduude said:
Elect? Are you a Calvinist?

Anyway, it’s not like they say 'I want to go to hell so I’m gonna go kill someone". It’s not like that at all. I think the real problem is that most people don’t take sin seriously. They get everything they want in this life- be it pleasure or material goods- that they think they’ll get what they want when they die i.e., go to Heaven. But God doesn’t operate like we do. He is all just and sends the people to hell who rightly deserve it. So people do send themselves to hell because really, they think their sins won’t stick with them when they die. They ignore it all basically.
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I’m a nonbeliever actually. This allows me to really take the Bible at face value without having to defend God with philisophical and theological musings that many believers resort to. Maybe the Bible teaches both views and that’s why there are different doctrinal stances on the issues of predestination, election etc.
 
Vimy_Ridge said:
I read it all actually. I just wanted to focus on your point about choosing Hell. People may choose to reject Christianity and they may choose to live an immoral life but ultimately it is God who made Hell and it is God who made up the rule that people who don’t believe and follow Him will go there. Alot of what you said is just an old attempt to let God of the hook and put all the blame on man, in my opinion.
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Ok heres the thing. You seem to have a pretty childish notion of Christian theology on hell. God did not create a rule to obey him.

Whether you like it or not, the idea of sin is that its not compatible with God’s nature. So our actions are either compatible or incompatible with the nature of God. Its not a rule by God. God can’t make square circles so it does not make sense to say that God should have made sin compatible with his nature. If one chooses immoral actions, he/she basically denies God and his nature. Then God gives them what they ask, … hell.

That my friend is what christianity holds. If you are attacking anything else than that, its not Christianity to begin with and I will happily join your attack 🙂

God Bless 🙂
 
Vimy_Ridge said:
I’m a nonbeliever actually. This allows me to really take the Bible at face value without having to defend God with philisophical and theological musings that many believers resort to. Maybe the Bible teaches both views and that’s why there are different doctrinal stances on the issues of predestination, election etc.
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No, the bible does not teach both views. Calvin was a protestant that denied free will. Given no free will, the only way to theologically reconcile other concepts was by double predestination. i.e. some to heaven and some to hell. That is just a compounding of errors by protestants. So your attack is definitely valid against the Protestant church but NOT against the Catholic church.

And as I said before in the earlier post, if you are attacking a church that has the characteristics that you mention, I would be happy to join your fight. Such a church would obviously be promoting false theology and doctrines.

But if you want to attack the Catholic position (which is what I hold), you first have to get the theology correct 🙂

God Bless 🙂
 
ddarko said:
Ok heres the thing. You seem to have a pretty childish notion of Christian theology on hell. God did not create a rule to obey him.

Whether you like it or not, the idea of sin is that its not compatible with God’s nature. So our actions are either compatible or incompatible with the nature of God. Its not a rule by God. God can’t make square circles so it does not make sense to say that God should have made sin compatible with his nature. If one chooses immoral actions, he/she basically denies God and his nature. Then God gives them what they ask, … hell.

That my friend is what christianity holds. If you are attacking anything else than that, its not Christianity to begin with and I will happily join your attack 🙂

God Bless 🙂
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Do you believe that Hell is like how many of the Saints described it? Literally a place of torture by fire, demons and horrible smells. I mean many would call this a childish view but that is how they saw it and it was not to be taken metaphoricaly. tldm.org/News8/realityofhell.htm
 
Hooding_Trees said:
You clearly do not understand science.
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I think I probably understand science better than 99.9% of the people who believe it is the one true source of truth.

And I suspect the others are probably too would up in it to understand the criticism! Can’t see the hood for the trees, as it were 😉
 
Moonstruck888 said:
I’m proving it on another thread right now?

ROFTL!!! :rolleyes:

Those are very strong words. Where am I proving it?
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Arguing the “absurd unlikelihood is no such thing because there is no such thing as likelihood, only inevitability” farce - I just realised, incidentally how ironic it is of you to do that, then ridicule philosophers for arguing an orange is an apple! :clapping:

I wonder if anyone ever even does that, or whether it’s just one more myth made up by scientists to convince themselves they’re better than everyone else… while nonetheless inventing even more ridiculously bogus theories, which they then insist everyone else take seriously! :hmmm:
 
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