Who Else Saw The Plates Besides Smith?

[RebeccaJ]

No, Rebecca. JOSEPH quoted from the KJV.

It seems quite logical to me that Joseph, being familiar with the KJV, and coming upon passages of Isaiah, etc,. that had already been translated (and that translation being found in the KJV that he was familiar with) would simply plug in that already existing translation.

It’s called not reinventing the wheel.

If anything, it shows Joseph’s very high opinon of the KJV, that he trusted that translation enough to use it.

Besides, why on earth would ANYBODY struggle to translate Isaiah when somebody had already done it? I have enough problems READING him.

Also, if the KJV has the Smith stamp of approval…what Bible does the Mormon church use for non-English speakers?

When the BoM is translated into other languages, how is Isaiah translated?

 

[BOMC]

The “ignore” feature works really well. I recommend it. I know that those who want to come to the forum and relentlessly pursue their agenda will say that when I ignore them I am “hiding” or “afraid” or some such nonsense… (I think they’re sometimes called “trolls”

I see trying to depart with a blessing of peace backfired, and you think I was a “troll?” The more I testify to the truth of The Book of Mormon, the more evidences and witnesses that you read, will stand against you as God is my witness.

You want more “proofs” of something that IS to be received by faith…I’ll do my best.

And, so we’re all on the same page, this is a “Non-Catholic” forum, AND the thread is specifically asking about the gold plates of TBOM - not the RCC.

If you thought otherwise - leave. I answered the question were there other witnesses sufficiently well, yet dumb, dumb, and dumber had no response. The fact you are unable to acknowledge what was presented shows how silly you are.

So, respond to the additional witnesses I cited, or move on. OK? It clearly rattles your cage or you wouldn’t be spending your time. That’s good, that’s God at work.

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[BOMC]

Melanie, of course you’re right. Jesus told the Apostles that if they came to a place and they refused to accept the word then they were to leave that place and shake the dust from their feet. I’m not too smart as I should be doing that and I probably will soon. Just let them be as you cannot reason with them.

Think so? What in the Bible do you claim I have rejected? Name one. You can’t. Name one thing in TBOM that is not in the Bible, you can’t. So who is offering and who is rejecting? You are. Therefore should be the one dusting my feet, not you two.

Lucky for you, God has told me to do that just yet.

.

 

[BOMC]

When I was an LDS missionary I told that lie every day, using as a proof text Ezekiel 37:16-19…To cast this passage as a prediction of the BOM is a cruel deception.
Paul

Hey Paul, did I quote the Ezekiel passage as my book reference from the Bible? No. You must have been a poor missionary since you don’t know the true passage. Try again, and I wait to here your spin on it. Hint, it’s in Isaiah.

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[BOMC]

You, Mr. “Bill Pick” will bear the blunt of God’s wrath for starting a thread with the purpose of luring sincere believers in The Book of Mormon only to mock them.

And then, to ignore the corrections I presented to your cut and paste diatribe is another justification for the correcting hand of God. Will you further perpetuate those lies? Read my notes and repent - stop the impression that it was all a lie.

Here are some facts one must consider before making a decision as to their actual existence.

It is an adulterous generation that seeks a sign. If the word of God in The Book of Mormon does not touch your heart, then God does not want you to believe it for any other reason. Stop worrying about the plates, and look at the words.

Smith’s mother, Lucy, never saw the plates for Joseph warned her that to look at them meant instant death.

Not so. Lucy believed her son, his father and siblings also believed him - till their death beds.

Emma, Smith’s wife, claimed she “saw” the plates but they were covered by a cloth.

Emma trusted her husband Joseph, she did not need a sign from God, she had faith. She gave a wonderful testimony of the dictation process which you ignore:

“When acting as his scribe, your father would dictate to me hour after hour; and when returning after meals, or after interruptions, he would at once begin where he had left off, without either seeing the manuscript or having any portion of it read to him. This was a usual thing for him to do. It would have been improbable that a learned man could do this; and, for one so ignorant and unlearned as he was, it was simply impossible.” (Vogel, Early Mormon Documents, 1:542)

Though she hated Joseph for his waywardness later in life, and may have even tried to poison him once, she never disbelieved The Book of Mormon. What a wonderful woman!

Martin Harris, who was Joseph’s secretary in the writing down of the translation, never got the chance to really see the plates although the two men worked in the same room. Joseph gave Harris the same warning: that the wrath of God would strike him down if he tried to see the plates.

What??? Why did Martin help Joseph more times than once? Because he knew Joseph! Hello?? Joseph and his brother did manual labor on Martin’s farm before religion ever came along. And he knew the Smith’s were “hard working” and “honest” like others said.

Did God give commands not to look or touch in times past? Yes He did. This is hardly a red flag.

Joseph claimed that one day he received a revelation from God that he must have three witnesses to prove the authenticity of the plates.

Wrong again. The Book of Mormon says there would be witnesses - that was God’s plan all along.

(Doctrine & Covenants Sec. 5). Joseph chose Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris and David Whitmer. He took the three men out into the woods where supposedly an angel showed them the plates.

Not supposedly, they did in fact give testimony, and sworn affidavits that they “saw an angel” and “the plates.”

They are three witnesses prophesied of in The Book of Mormon, and as required by God to establish His word. The onus is on you, not them.

Martin Harris was later questioned by a lawyer: “Did you see the plates with your bodily eyes?” Harris replied: “I did not see them as I do that pencil case, yet I saw them with the eyes of faith.”

Have you ever been in the glory? How would you describe it? “In the body or out of the body” or “by my physical eyes or my spiritual/faith eyes,” you get the point. But in case you didn’t, he clarified it, and restated it many times:

Gentlemen," holding out his hand, "do you see that hand? Are you sure you see it? Or are your eyes playing you a trick or something? No. Well, as sure as you see my hand so sure did I see the Angel and the plates.

And:

No man heard me in any way deny the truth of the Book of Mormon [or] the administration of the angel that showed me the plates.

For anyone to try and give to others the impression that he ever wavered in his testimony, is an act of deception itself. Stop doing it.

All three men told different stories as to what actually happened in the woods.

I see, so because the men accompanying Saul on the road to Damascus when our Lord appeared had a different version of the event then Saul’s own, means Saul must have lied?

Actually we need not cite Paul’s example. David and Oliver were together, and their witnesses are consistent, and Martin’s experience is likewise consistent. Such divine encounters empowered them ALL THE DAYS OF THEIR LIFE! Wow!

continues…

 

[BOMC]

continuing…

All three later quarreled with Smith and left the church. Joseph described them as liars, forgerers, slander-bearers and thieves. Joseph even claimed that in July of 1828 he had received a revelation from God in which the Almighty described Martin Harris as wicked. (Doctrine & Covenants Sec. 3) Joseph’s assessment of the integrity of the three divinely appointed witnesses comes as a great surprise to a sincere inquirer.

Who ever said that an angelic visit would make the receiver infallible? Honestly.

It is only fair to ask the following questions: How could God have chosen men of such evil character and reputation?

Sounds like the locals in Nazareth - who could only see what was bad in their view, not what was good, so they tried to kill Jesus. But we don’t even need to cite his example for how wrong the judgments of man can be, we ask, AT THE TIME OF THE EXPERIENCE who of these men was, what did you call them, “evil.” Shame on you! You will justify the wrath of God to be poured out for trying to villify sincere followers of Christ.

Since Smith is supposed to be a true prophet of God, his evaluation of them had to be correct. How then could anyone take their testimony to the plates as trustworthy?

What a ridiculous statement. A true prophet does what God says, and they are only true while they are obedient to His commands. Joseph did not know how they would perform later in life. There is not a shred of evidence any of them were not honest and sincere followers of Christ AT THE TIME.

how could they have doubted Smith from that moment on? Cowdery and Harris were supposed to have returned to the Church. David Whitmer remained out. He claimed that he also was a true prophet from God and rejected Smith’s later revelations.

Again, becoming a prophet does not make them suddenly infallible. Where do you people get those ideas? The Bible is full of examples of prophets committing all kinds of sins. Stop using one standard for the Bible and another for Joseph Smith.

Next Joseph produced eight more witnesses although there is no evidence that he did so with divine approval.

Nothing occurred with those plates but what God allowed. Why worry about such details if you won’t believe until you see the plates anyways. “Blessed are those who believe without seeing” our Lord said. Apparently you get to pick and choose which of his teachings you will follow in these forums. Sad.

Perhaps he was worried about the unreliability of the first three of whom he had such a low opinion.

They were prophesied of in TBOM, and nothing had occurred with the other three to cause Joseph to doubt. That is why BOTH testimonies are in TBOM. They thought it an honor, you think entire families lied all through out.

Of these eight witnesses, four of them were Whitmers, relatives of the David Whitmer, one of the three original witnesses. The fifth witness was Hiram Page who had married a Whitmer daughter. The last three were Joseph’s own father and two brothers. This is surely too close a family circle to impress an honest investigator looking for impartiality among a group of witnesses.

Excuse me, three witnesses, none of whom were related is sufficient to satisfy ANY court of law, including God’s. Consider the other eight an honor.

When Our Lord arose from the dead, the Bible states He appeared to many different people and at different times and places. Jesus offered sufficient and reasonable proof that He was alive again.

Precisely why God showed them to still others:

Harrison G. Burgess

Luke Johnson

Mary Whitmer

Not to mention all the witnesses to the dictation process itself that I already listed, and you have failed to deal with.

Lastly, in a sermon delivered by President and Prophet Brigham Young…

Will you believe the comments on an enemy? Why are you even quoting BY? Do you believe he was a prophet of God, and infallible?

From the facts an impartial investigator can only conclude that the evidence for the actual existence of a set of golden plates from God is just too weak to merit a reasonable acceptance of Joseph Smith’s claim for them.

Really. That’s not what an actual judge said:

The judge responded saying, “I want to tell you something. In all my years in law, I don’t think I have ever heard a case more nearly perfect than this one. When you started out, I wouldn’t have given you a plugged nickel for your chances of proving that book to be true through the absolute legal process in a court of law.”

Buy the account and see for yourself:

miltonrich.com/about.php?cpage=about&t=jackwest

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[BOMC]

Jesus cited from the KJV of the Bible? You really believe this?

Do you believe that the KJV is word for word in TBOM? Who told you that? They were mistaken. In fact, TBOM version of Biblical accounts sheds great light by their differences. What a marvel to have!

.

 

[PaulDupre]

Hey Paul, did I quote the Ezekiel passage as my book reference from the Bible? No. You must have been a poor missionary since you don’t know the true passage. Try again, and I wait to here your spin on it. Hint, it’s in Isaiah.

.

I didn’t say you quoted it. The LDS church uses it in their missionary discussions, along with a few others, but the Ezek “two sticks” passage is the main one they use in missionary work.

You’re probably referring to the “Marvelous Work and a Wonder” passage from Isaiah 29 (LeGrand Richards anyone?). Also has nothing to do with the BOM though I’m sure you imagine that it does because that’s what the LDS church taught you to think. More later, it’s late.

Paul

 

[BOMC]

I submit that we can make better use of our time than engaging in endless arguments about such things as…appreciate your scriptural reference ~ right on point!

Please go somewhere else if you’re not going to acknowledge facts when presented; divert the topic; and throw accusations.

I believe God is working on you too, or why would you bother with this topic?

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[BOMC]

You’re probably referring to the “Marvelous Work and a Wonder” passage from Isaiah 29 (LeGrand Richards anyone?). Also has nothing to do with the BOM though I’m sure you imagine that it does because that’s what the LDS church taught you to think.

No, I only respect what verses are identified within TBOM as pertaining to TBOM.

So does Jesus’ reference to his “other sheep.” He said that it applies to TBOM.

.

 

[BOMC]

Well that is certainly a revelation. I guess that would explain why several passages in the BOM are almost exact copies of the KJV. Well now we know how that came to be. I guess like you said, “why reinvent the wheel” it’s easy and faster to just copy those passages straight from the KJV instead of going through the lengthly translation process. Thank you for that information.

That is conjecture. If he had copied from the Bible, someone would have said so, why hide it?

Also, the similar passages are NOT word for word.

This is a good example of how Mormons have stated as fact this and that making a mess of something very simple.

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[RebeccaJ]

Do you believe that the KJV is word for word in TBOM? Who told you that? They were mistaken. In fact, TBOM version of Biblical accounts sheds great light by their differences. What a marvel to have!

.

Over 21 chapters of Isaiah are copied directly from the KJV. Most of it is copied verbatim. When it is not verbatim, it is because Smith left out the italicized portion of the KJV, or modified those portions. In some cases he adds words that make the passage in the BoM, meaningless.

In the case of translation errors in the KJV, they are found copied to the BoM.

Jesus quotes from the KJV New Testament (verbatim).

In III Nephi 20:23-26, Jesus quotes a sermon that Peter had yet to deliver at Pentecost, recorded in Acts 3:22-26.

In III Nephi 18:29, Jesus quotes a line that Paul had not yet written, in I Corinthians 11:29, with regard to the Eucharist.

In III Nephi 28:8, Jesus quotes I Corinthians 15:52-53 with regard to the Resurrection.

There’s more. This research is taken from “The Bible in the Book of Mormon (1999)”

 

[BOMC]

Over 21 chapters of Isaiah are copied directly from the KJV. Most of it is copied verbatim. When it is not verbatim, it is because Smith left out the italicized portion of the KJV, or modified those portions. In some cases he adds words that make the passage in the BoM, meaningless.

What does the Bible say about scripture? “Holy men of God spake as they were moved upon by the Holy Ghost.”

What is the Holy Spirit’s job? "Teach you all things, and bring things to our remembrance what Jesus said.

Please do not confuse the consistency of the Holy Spirit with plagiarism by man.

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[RebeccaJ]

What does the Bible say about scripture? “Holy men of God spake as they were moved upon by the Holy Ghost.”

What is the Holy Spirit’s job? "Teach you all things, and bring things to our remembrance what Jesus said.

Please do not confuse the consistency of the Holy Spirit with plagiarism by man.

.

BOMC, it is you who are confused. You have confused a book with the Holy Spirit. You should repent of this blasphemy.

 

[BOMC]

Over 21 chapters of Isaiah are copied directly from the KJV. Most of it is copied verbatim. When it is not verbatim, it is because Smith left out the italicized portion of the KJV, or modified those portions. In some cases he adds words that make the passage in the BoM, meaningless.

Royal Skousen studied this and found:

In most cases he (Joseph) did not dictate changes where italics did occur, and most of the changes he did dictate were to unitalicized passages.

The following is an example of an Isaiah variance in TBOM:

Isaiah 2:16 KJV: “And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures.”

The Septuagint: “And upon all the ships of the sea, and upon all pleasant pictures.”

TBOM: “And upon all the ships of the sea, and upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures.”

Notice the difference? TBOM contains the more complete reading, and Joseph did not consult the Septuagint.

---

Isaiah 2:5: “O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the Lord.”

TBOM: “O house of Jacob, come ye and let us walk in the light of the Lord; Yes, come, for ye have all gone astray, every one to his wicked ways.”

---

Isaiah 2:14: “And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up”

TBOM: "And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills, and upon all the nations which are lifted up, and upon every people.

---

It cannot be said that Joseph just copied from the KJV. Also, the Original Manuscript of TBOM does not show any modifications.

It’s just marvelous to behold.

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[dianaiad]

Well that is certainly a revelation. I guess that would explain why several passages in the BOM are almost exact copies of the KJV. Well now we know how that came to be. I guess like you said, “why reinvent the wheel” it’s easy and faster to just copy those passages straight from the KJV instead of going through the lengthly translation process. Thank you for that information.

Remember.

It is my personal theory on this. It is the first thought I had when I came across the Isaiah passages in the BoM…a sort of “well, you were either very tired, stressed for time, didn’t trust yourself and your abilities well enough, or…??..but thank you, because I wouldn’t want to plow through two DIFFERENT translations of Isaiah either.”

Of course, I was very young, and didn’t realize that one of the motives Joseph might have had is that he knew that no matter what he did with those passages, critics and antis would be all over him like jam on toast, so he may have deliberately picked the one that got him the least grief. He was human, after all.

I am also aware that there are many other theories about this matter as well, both pro and con. Here is, finally, what I think: since it would have been a reasonable thing to do, for a young man who had been trained all his life to trust the infallibility of the bible and in the translation which he had, to trust it more than his own abilities. If he shouldn’t have, well…he shouldn’t have, but the inclusion of such passages is not in and of itself proof that the BoM is fake. If anything, it mitigates (not proves, mind you, but mitigates) on the side that the BoM is not fake.

How?

Because if it were fake, then Joseph would have to have known that he’d be better off not to include this stuff at all, never mind trying to make a choice between his translation and the KJV one.Whatever any of his enemies, present or past, may say about the man, nobody has ever called him stupid.

Except about the banking system.

Diana

 

[RebeccaJ]

Royal Skousen studied this and found:

The following is an example of an Isaiah variance in TBOM:

Isaiah 2:16 KJV: “And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures.”

The Septuagint: “And upon all the ships of the sea, and upon all pleasant pictures.”

TBOM: “And upon all the ships of the sea, and upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures.”

Notice the difference? TBOM contains the more complete reading, and Joseph did not consult the Septuagint.

---

The OT of the KJV is a translation from Masoretic Hebrew text, not the Septuagint. (With the exception of the Apocrypha, which was translated from the Greek Septuagint.) Why is Skousen comparing to the Septuagint?

You have only shown that Isaiah was copied, and improvised.

Septuagint: 16 καὶ ἐπὶ πᾶν πλοῖον θαλάσσης καὶ ἐπὶ πᾶσαν θέαν πλοίων κάλλους

English translation: 16 and upon every ship of the sea, and upon every display of fine ships

 

[Bill_Pick]

The Book of Mormon and Mormonism are not different. In fact, disbelieving in this is pure contradiction to what your general authorities teach and general church body teaches. According to them, you’d either be ill-informed or in a state of apostasy.

Your pick.

The story is that Smith returned the plates to an angel who took them back to heaven. As a Christian I can only wonder why (and reasonably so) the All-Wise God did not leave the plates behind so that their existence and authenticity of writing on them could be established beyond a reasonable doubt. In I Corinthians 15: 6-8 Paul writes that Jesus after His rising from the dead appeared not only to the Twelve and other workers, but to more than five hundred of his followers. Why did God maintain such secrecy about the golden plates?

 

[dianaiad]

Also, if the KJV has the Smith stamp of approval…what Bible does the Mormon church use for non-English speakers?

When the BoM is translated into other languages, how is Isaiah translated?

Rebecca, that’s a very good question, and I don’t know the answer! How fun is that! :extrahappy::dancing:

( I just reviewed the post and realized how the above sentence looks. Wow, that must look like the most total arrogance…but it’s not. I’ve been a ‘sortapologist’ for so many years that I ‘have the answers’ to most of the criticisms that anti’s use. So when a thoughtful, new, question [or at least one I haven’t seen before] comes up and makes me go LOOK? oh, that’s really very cool)

I know that the bible used for non-English speakers is generally the one most accepted by the biblical scholars of whatever language it is. I have been told over and over again, for instance, that the German version is more accurate than the KJV is. I don’t know if that is accurate or not.

I imagine that the Book of Mormon, when it is translated, is translated as it is and let the chips fall where they may as far as those passages are concerned, but frankly?

I don’t really know.

And now I get to go find out!

(rubbing hands) You have done me a service, Rebecca. Thank you.

(mumbling to self…I’ll need to check the translations of what, three or four languages? Hmmn…now how am I going to do that? 'scuse me, folks…wanders off in search…)

 

[dianaiad]

The story is that Smith returned the plates to an angel who took them back to heaven. As a Christian I can only wonder why (and reasonably so) the All-Wise God did not leave the plates behind so that their existence and authenticity of writing on them could be established beyond a reasonable doubt. In I Corinthians 15: 6-8 Paul writes that Jesus after His rising from the dead appeared not only to the Twelve and other workers, but to more than five hundred of his followers. Why did God maintain such secrecy about the golden plates?

Just as a for instance…

Joseph was murdered by 200 men in black face. He was stalked, beaten…he was very young, and those plates were supposedly pure gold (at least that’s what the folks around him thought.) That’s TREASURE, people.

Now I’m certain, in this case, that God DID protect the plates in the best and most secure method possible. He took them back and kept them.

(shrug) There is no way that Joseph could have, at the time, kept them safe. All you have to do to know that is look at what happened to the Mormons when they did NOT have such a treasure to protect.