Who Else Saw The Plates Besides Smith?

[PaulDupre]

Had you actually read Nephi and not dabbled…

Why must you keep doing that? You accuse everyone who disbelieves the BOM of not having read it. That is a cult tactic and very rude. We have all read it, many of us more than once. It is quite reasonable for good and reasonable people to carefully read the BOM and come away with the conclusion that it is a pious fraud.

You do harm to your cause when you use cult tactics and disrespect people.

God love you,
Paul

 

[dianaiad]

If they truly were divine, if Joseph Smith knew this and if he had faith in God what would have been the problem. God could not have protected the plates and Joseph Smith? Have you every read the stories of men of faith like Joshua, Gideon, Moses, David, etc. Numbers mean nothing to God. So did Joseph Smith lack faith or did he know the whole thing was a scam?

yes, indeed, and the strength of those men lay in their willingness to do what God told them to do.

 

[ricko]

In the words of Huckabee, if you make your God so small He can only fill your Bible, you got a small God. Or something to that effect.​

But we don’t have to take a logical, or philosophical angle on that, we have the Bible.

Does the Bible say another book would come forth? Yes it does.

Did Jesus say he had other sheep that he would go visit? Yes he did.

In fact, while visiting the BoM peoples he said he had yet other “sheep” that he still had to meet. So yes, as you said, “God loves everyone” and He will respond as His will provides.

His will was to provide a support for the Bible, and the only book of scripture that confirms the NT IS The Holy Book of Mormon. Why are you refusing God’s will?

.

No, the bible does not say another book will come forth.
The other sheep that Jesus referred to is the Gentiles and not the supposed people in the New World.
I have read the BOM and yes I did have the guidance of the Holy Spirit which lead me to the fact that the BOM is not the word of God or Jesus.
The gospel was to be taught all over the world by the Catholic Church when Jesus commisioned the Apostles “to teach all nations”.
Also, with the Holy Spirit guiding me, it makes no sense at all that if Jesus was to spread the gospel then why appear only in America? What about the rest of the world? The Holy Spirit again told me in my heart and mind that this was a false teaching and not in aggreement with the one true bible (as if there were a need for two)

 

[dianaiad]

BOM It is quite dull. The book does not reach the literary and dramatic heights of the Christian Bible. <snip everything to here, just for space> … The Indians are considered to be mongoloids and most scientists hold that such people came to the Americas by crossing the Beiring Straits and not by sailing from Palestine. . These are just a few of the many difficulties one encounters in a serious study of the Book of Mormon. Yet, Smith supposedly a true prophet from God, could categorically state: “The Book of Mormon is the most correct of any book on earth and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts than by any other book.”
(History of the Church Vol. 4, p. 461)

Bill, you are a plagiarist. If you were in my class, you would be given an “F” for the assignment, and possibly the course, since this isn’t the first time you have done a copy paste from an anti-Mormon website, quite possibly without so much as reading to see what it is you have actually stolen.

You ARE aware that William Mitchell has an official copywrite on this material, aren’t you?

I mean, fair use would allow you to use this stuff, certainly–but only if you give credit to the actual author.

True, “The Evangelization Station” presents itself as a Catholic website (if not officially sponsored by the church, the webmaster certainly is Catholic). However, it seems, to me at least, to be a bit on the extreme side.

…but come to me with your OWN arguments, or at least be honest about it and don’t claim someone else’s arguments as your own, Bill. Presenting Mr. Mitchell’s writing as yours is dishonest.

 

[dianaiad]

No, the bible does not say another book will come forth.
The other sheep that Jesus referred to is the Gentiles and not the supposed people in the New World.
I have read the BOM and yes I did have the guidance of the Holy Spirit which lead me to the fact that the BOM is not the word of God or Jesus.
The gospel was to be taught all over the world by the Catholic Church when Jesus commisioned the Apostles “to teach all nations”.
Also, with the Holy Spirit guiding me, it makes no sense at all that if Jesus was to spread the gospel then why appear only in America? What about the rest of the world? The Holy Spirit again told me in my heart and mind that this was a false teaching and not in aggreement with the one true bible (as if there were a need for two)

Question: who took the gospel to the people of the Americas “when Jesus commissioned the Apostles 'to teach all nations?”

 

[BOMC]

Your use of ellipses to distort what I wrote is very dishonest. You have lost any shred of credibility with me.

Not really. Viewers can read your full text by clicking on your post reference. Unless a person jumps around and does not respect the history of the thread like several are prone to do here, you included.

I read the BOM several times…Gospel Doctrine teacher…I use only the materials and statements published by the LDS Church.

You imply you have learned to think for yourself, but so far, all you have done is regurgitated what has already been said by others. Try reading TBOM from this view - “Does it support Jesus?” Then let us know what you find.

Oh please…that website sounds like Martin Harris - only those with the eyes of faith can discern the BOM geography.

What is dishonest, is you restating my words with your own interjections. I said the location where our Lord descended in a cloud of glory i.e. invisible, can still be felt or seen by those who can discern things of God, not EVERYTHING having to do with the geography of TBOM - big difference!

If the story was real with many millions

Really? Where did you get that number??

of highly technological Nephites and Lamanites, there would be archeological traces of it that could be verified without the eyes of faith.

Like what? Be more specific, are you talking about farming, pyramids, metallurgy or what?

All civilizations leave artifacts behind.

So if they haven’t been found evidences to your liking by now, they never will. Don’t be so vain.

If archeologists found Jericho and Troy (cities much older than the BOM cities) then why haven’t they found Zarahemla or Bountiful?

I thought you said you read TBOM? Tell me, what were the cities of Zarahemla and Bountiful made of? WOOD! Wake up, honestly, your so full of yourself in your self-righteousness claiming you know all about it, you know nothing, but that doesn’t surprise me, Mormon’s are merely taught what their rulers want them to know, unless you look on your own. It’s not too late though, glad you’re reading this thread.

It’s not like there hasn’t been a good deal of digging done in North and South America, especially by Mormons.

Well, if you’re referring to Mesoamerica areas, I guess that is right, however there are many areas untouched, according to them.

Unless you look in the right place, you won’t find what your looking for.

God has fed them delusions because they don’t follow TBOM. He does not want any supports to come forth until that book is no longer associated with the Mormon Church. If you want supports, then separate TBOM from the Mormon church and they will come.

.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Question: who took the gospel to the people of the Americas “when Jesus commissioned the Apostles 'to teach all nations?”

The One Holy and Apostolic Church that Christ founded during His ministry.

 

[dianaiad]

The One Holy and Apostolic Church that Christ founded during His ministry.

And this happened…when?

I think it would strain the credibility of most people to think that God would allow it to take FIFTEEN HUNDRED YEARS, and even then at spear and gun point with the ‘missionaries’ a lot more concerned with absconding with the gold than converting folks.

Let’s face it; the conquistadors were not over there to convert people–hence the name “Conquistador.”

 

[BOMC]

No, the bible does not say another book will come forth.
The other sheep that Jesus referred to is the Gentiles and not the supposed people in the New World.

Sorry, but Jesus was ONLY sent to the “lost sheep” of the “House of Israel” which precludes the Gentiles.

I have read the BOM and yes I did have the guidance of the Holy Spirit which lead me to the fact that the BOM is not the word of God or Jesus.

I do not equate your word “lead” with a question/answer session with God. Try again, but this time fast, so He knows you’re sincere. You’re fruits here show a lack of sincerity. A true lover of our Lord would support or at least acknowledge *anything *that supported Jesus, as Jesus said “he that is not against me can do me no harm” and he told his apostles to leave the man alone.

The gospel was to be taught all over the world by the Catholic Church when Jesus commisioned the Apostles “to teach all nations”.

Really, so how did Paul get his commission, or anyone outside of the original twelve apostles? See the flaw?

Also, with the Holy Spirit guiding me, it makes no sense at all that if Jesus was to spread the gospel then why appear only in America? What about the rest of the world? The Holy Spirit again told me in my heart and mind that this was a false teaching…

That is a true teaching. If you read “He Walked the Americas” you will learn that people all over the world have legends of a white God visiting. Just because they did not have a written language, or we have not found their writings yet does not mean it did not happen.

Aside from that, there was a plan with TBOM, and this is why it made it out FIRST, not last, but FIRST. God will see who receives the first to determine when others will come out.

Has TBOM been received, or has it been obscured by the Mormon church?

TBOM must come out from the Mormon church so evidences and confirming records can come forth.

.

 

[RebeccaJ]

And this happened…when?

I think it would strain the credibility of most people to think that God would allow it to take FIFTEEN HUNDRED YEARS, and even then at spear and gun point with the ‘missionaries’ a lot more concerned with absconding with the gold than converting folks.

Let’s face it; the conquistadors were not over there to convert people–hence the name “Conquistador.”

hmmm, you seem to be confused between missionaries and conquistadors. Do me a favor, and comare Jesuits in North America to their Protestant counterparts, including Mormons.

Let me summarize. Mormonism teaches that God established two churches, both that failed. In the case of the church in the Americas, he instructed the gospel teachings to be hidden.

This alone, is BS, and goes against everything Jesus taught.

So, the whole world is left in darkness for 1500-1800 years, depending on which Mormon spin you go for.

And you complain that it took God 1500 years to spread the Gospel to the Americas?

I propose you have something far more problematic going on.

 

[Ross09]

And this happened…when?

I think it would strain the credibility of most people to think that God would allow it to take FIFTEEN HUNDRED YEARS, and even then at spear and gun point with the ‘missionaries’ a lot more concerned with absconding with the gold than converting folks.

Let’s face it; the conquistadors were not over there to convert people–hence the name “Conquistador.”

But God would allow his ministry to die off in 100 years or so?

God made the Jews wait thousands of years before sending them a Messiah. I think Christianity spread rather quickly considering how persecuted they were in the beginning. I’m sure RebeccaJ will chime in, but I’m pretty sure she didn’t mean the Conquistidors. More like the nuns, priests and lay people who came to the Americas as missionaries and pilgrims after Columbus…and regular Catholic people who immigrated.

 

[dianaiad]

hmmm, you seem to be confused between missionaries and conquistadors. Do me a favor, and comare Jesuits in North America to their Protestant counterparts, including Mormons.

Let me summarize. Mormonism teaches that God established two churches, both that failed. In the case of the church in the Americas, he instructed the gospel teachings to be hidden.

This alone, is BS, and goes against everything Jesus taught.

So, the whole world is left in darkness for 1500-1800 years, depending on which Mormon spin you go for.

And you complain that it took God 1500 years to spread the Gospel to the Americas?

I propose you have something far more problematic going on.

Rebecca, we claim that the apostasy caused the loss of the priesthood authority. We do not claim that the gospel was entirely lost; after all, if it were we would be pretty hypocritical to use the bible, or to believe anything else that was taught during that time.

In other words, WE do not claim that the world was ‘left in darkness’ completely…that would be your claim. As for the Jesuits, who exactly gave them their rides to the new world, and HOW long did it take them to get there?

No, the point still stands. You are claiming that Christ left the peoples of the new world without any of His teachings for 1500 years.

We aren’t the ones doing that.

 

[dianaiad]

But God would allow his ministry to die off in 100 years or so?

God made the Jews wait thousands of years before sending them a Messiah. I think Christianity spread rather quickly considering how persecuted they were in the beginning. I’m sure RebeccaJ will chime in, but I’m pretty sure she didn’t mean the Conquistidors. More like the nuns, priests and lay people who came to the Americas as missionaries and pilgrims after Columbus…and regular Catholic people who immigrated.

He did…but He sent them prophets to guide them in the mean time; He didn’t leave them alone.

…and yes, Christianity did spread rather quickly,which is actually proof of my point, not yours. It spread very quickly in the ‘old’ world. It was known pretty much everywhere in Europe and Asia within a couple of centuries, if not earlier than that.

But no matter how you spin it, if you are correct, it didn’t reach the ‘new world’ for fifteen hundred years. I don’t think God would do that.

Diana (waiting to see if anybody is seeing the irony in all this…)

 

[Ross09]

He did…but He sent them prophets to guide them in the mean time; He didn’t leave them alone.

…and yes, Christianity did spread rather quickly,which is actually proof of my point, not yours. It spread very quickly in the ‘old’ world. It was known pretty much everywhere in Europe and Asia within a couple of centuries, if not earlier than that.

But no matter how you spin it, if you are correct, it didn’t reach the ‘new world’ for fifteen hundred years. I don’t think God would do that.

Diana (waiting to see if anybody is seeing the irony in all this…)

We don’t need prophets to know that a higher being exists. I don’t think God ever leaves humans alone. Are people who have never heard about God “alone”? Why did Jesus visit the Americas but not Asia and Africa, the Pacific Islands and Australia, and go back in time to visit neanderthals? Do you have to have a prophet or Jesus in person to know God is with us?

 

[PaulDupre]

You imply you have learned to think for yourself, but so far, all you have done is regurgitated what has already been said by others. Try reading TBOM from this view - “Does it support Jesus?” Then let us know what you find.

Irrelevant. Lots of non-scriptural texts “support Jesus” - that does not make them scripture. Besides, TBOM teaches false doctrine. False doctrines are in opposition to Jesus

Really? Where did you get that number??[millions]

Mormon 6:10-15 reports a single Nephite-Lamanite battle in which 230,000 Nephite soldiers died. There must have been at least a million Nephites at that time including women, children and men too old or infirmed to fight (that is a conservative number considering the BOM claims of Nephite fecundity).

There must have been at least that many Lamanites alive at the same time. Right there you have two million people. And this was after a long period of very bloody wars in which many, many thousands of soldiers died, so the total non-soldier population must have been substantially larger.

Some day I will take the time to total up all the men killed in battle throughout the BOM. It’s a wonder there was anyone left to reproduce.

If there were millions of Nephites and Lamanites alive in 385 AD, then the total number of Lehi’s descendants that lived from 600 BC to 421 AD must have totaled billions of people.

Billions of people who made and used steel, iron, brass, horse-drawn chariots, highways, sophistcated navigational equipment and raised mighty armies with hundreds of thousands of soldiers clad in armor wielding steel swords leave stuff behind that is easily found. Heck, the steel industry alone would leave artifacts that are unmistakable.

God bless,
Paul

 

[truthsilence]

He did…but He sent them prophets to guide them in the mean time; He didn’t leave them alone.

…and yes, Christianity did spread rather quickly,which is actually proof of my point, not yours. It spread very quickly in the ‘old’ world. It was known pretty much everywhere in Europe and Asia within a couple of centuries, if not earlier than that.

But no matter how you spin it, if you are correct, it didn’t reach the ‘new world’ for fifteen hundred years. I don’t think God would do that.

Diana (waiting to see if anybody is seeing the irony in all this…)

Diana, I do indeed see the irony of everything you’re saying, considering the fact, the FACT that, in fifteen years as a LDS, actively attending Gospel Essentials, Gospel Doctrine, Relief Society (occasionally) and Sacrament Meeting, I was never ONCE not even ONCE taught ANYTHING about the Christian Church, from the time of the Apostles to Joseph Smith, other than that the entire Church went into a universal Apostasy - that it had shattered, like ‘a broken mirror’!

Imagine how I felt when I discovered the stories of the Early Saints and all the Saints down through the ages who lived and died for the Faith! I felt like I would crumble into a million pieces!

Never once was I taught anything other than APOSTASY and Joseph Smith, as a LDS. So yes Diana, your words are ironic indeed.

And as Rebecca pointed out, Jesus’ Church failed, according to Mormonism, not only once, but indeed it failed TWICE; in the Old World as well as the New. Where did it go, Diana? Where was God then?

 

[BOMC]

Irrelevant. Lots of non-scriptural texts “support Jesus” - that does not make them scripture.

Scripture is when holy men of God speak under the inspiration of God. I believe there are other writings equal to scripture today, however I don’t believe you could discern them, but that’s beside the point.

Because TBOM specifically says it was to support the Bible and provide a witness for the virgin birth and resurrection of Jesus Christ, it is in a class FAR beyond whatever group you are trying to belittle it with.

Besides, TBOM teaches false doctrine. False doctrines are in opposition to Jesus.

I can’t wait to hear those, by all means, share.

Mormon 6:10-15 reports a single Nephite-Lamanite battle in which 230,000 Nephite soldiers died. There must have been at least a million Nephites at that time including women, children and men too old or infirmed to fight (that is a conservative number considering the BOM claims of Nephite fecundity).

Conjecture and lousy arithmetic! Consider that most of those numbers during war time came from populations outside of Book of Mormon areas. Just like in the Colonial War, the Colonists’ numbers increased because the Native Americans joined them. The same thing happened with the Nephites, that is why it took so long to gather their armies to the final battle. They came from areas outside of the small BoM area.

Billions of people who made and used steel, iron, brass, horse-drawn chariots, highways, sophistcated navigational equipment and raised mighty armies with hundreds of thousands of soldiers clad in armor wielding steel swords leave stuff behind that is easily found. Heck, the steel industry alone would leave artifacts that are unmistakable.

“Billions,” that’s silly, come on where’s your dignity of intellect.

It’s amazing to me that people believe they should be able to go to where these events occurred and see their belongings left, in good condition as when they died. Honestly!?%#$

---

Here’s a reality check. Because the Nephites were the only ones civilized, their tools and weapons were highly prized. Between the Lamanites AND the robbers, do you really think they did not loot every home, and strip every body of everything of worth?

Say again, what is it you believe should remain for you to look at? I already debunked your idea that cities of wood should remain. Now you think weapons, tools, and kitchen utensils would remain as well? Can you see how harsh and unfair your accusations have been?

What about their bones? Do you assume there should be “billions” of bones laying as well? There use to be literally millions of Buffalo across the plains, and nearly all were killed and left on the ground to rot. Where are their bones? Go on, I challenge you to find some.

Ever been for a hike in the forest where bears, mountain lions, and deer live? Ever seen one of their bones just lying there on the ground? Unless it was a recent kill, the bones, skin and teeth will all dissolve.

No one buried the dead at either of their final battles. For the rest of their history, few lived to an old age and were buried. Others who died throughout were heaped up after a war in mounds of dirt, which mounds are still there to be seen today.

This is what governor De Witt Clinton said of BoM lands there in Western New York in the year 1820:

I am persuaded that enough has been said to demonstrate the existence of a vast population, settled in towns, defended by forts, cultivating agriculture, and more advanced in civilization than the nations which have inhabited the same countries since the European discovery. (Memoir on the Antiquities of the Western Parts of the State of New York by De Witt Clinton)

Now please, show a little humility to The Book of Mormon.

.

 

[BOMC]

Yes and one of the big heresies is the Book of Mormon heresy where they deal with the “heresy” issue by calling everyone else a heretic or “apostate”.

Wrong. The word “heresy” is never used in TBOM, but you like to mock and used it anyway.

I was going to say, are there any depths you won’t go to mock the Word of God? But then I realized, you can’t go any lower before God or Jesus than to mock The Holy Book of Mormon. You should be ashamed of yourself!

There is a verse about the RCC however which you should be aware of:

For it shall come to pass in that day that the churches which are built up and not unto the Lord when the one shall say unto the other Behold I I am the Lord’s and the other shall say I I am the Lord’s and thus shall every one say that hath built up the churches and not unto the Lord. ()

Once again, the Holy Book of Mormon has nailed it to a “T”.

.

 

[PaulDupre]

Scripture is when holy men of God speak under the inspiration of God. I believe there are other writings equal to scripture today, however I don’t believe you could discern them, but that’s beside the point.

Yes, poor me with my darkened intellect so inferior to your “white and delightsome” mind.

Conjecture and lousy arithmetic! Consider that most of those numbers during war time came from populations outside of Book of Mormon areas. Just like in the Colonial War, the Colonists’ numbers increased because the Native Americans joined them. The same thing happened with the Nephites, that is why it took so long to gather their armies to the final battle. They came from areas outside of the small BoM area.

So you are positing the “Limited Geography Theory” of the BOM? That’s strange, since you decry the LDS and they’re the ones who came up with that to defend against the DNA evidence showing that the Amerindians are Mongolian in ancestry. The BOM itself says that there was no one else on the American continents when Lehi and his family arrived (I believe you cited that passage a short while ago). All Mormons believed and taught that until the DNA evidence came forth, and then suddenly the LGT shows up. Now they must do violence to the BOM text in order to protect their belief.

Anyway, here is the math for the 230,000:

Mormon 6:9-15 with a running total:

9 And it came to pass that they did fall upon my people with the sword, and with the bow, and with the arrow, and with the ax, and with all manner of weapons of war.
10 And it came to pass that my men were hewn down, yea, even
my ten thousand who were with me, (10,000)

and I fell wounded in the midst; and they passed by me that they did not put an end to my life.
11 And when they had gone through and hewn down all my people save it were twenty and four of us, (among whom was my son Moroni) and we having survived the dead of our people, did behold on the morrow, when the Lamanites had returned unto their camps, from the top of the hill Cumorah, the ten thousand of my people who were hewn down, being led in the front by me.
12 And we also beheld
the ten thousand of my people who were led by my son Moroni. (20,000)
13 And behold,
the ten thousand of Gidgiddonah had fallen, and he also in the midst. (30,000)
14 And Lamah had fallen with his ten thousand; (40,000)
and Gilgal had fallen with his ten thousand; (50,000)
and Limhah had fallen with his ten thousand; (60,000)
and Jeneum had fallen with his ten thousand; (70,000)
and Cumenihah, (80,000)
and Moronihah, (90,000)
and Antionum, (100,000)
and Shiblom, (110,000)
and Shem, (120,000)
and Josh, (130,000)
had fallen with their ten thousand each.
15 And it came to pass that there were

** ten more who did fall by the sword, with their ten thousand each; (230,000)**

yea, even all my people, save it were those twenty and four who were with me, and also a few who had escaped into the south countries, and a few who had deserted over unto the Lamanites, had fallen; and their flesh, and bones, and blood lay upon the face of the earth, being left by the hands of those who slew them to molder upon the land, and to crumble and to return to their mother earth.

Note that Mormon calls the fallen soldiers “my people”, not “mercenaries” “allies” or “those other guys” but “my people”, IOW Nephites.

Your notion that these were non-Lehites recruited from other indigenous peoples is purely your own invention, not supported at all by the BOM text. If you think I’m wrong, show me where the BOM describes non-Lehites living in the Americas and the Nephites’ interactions with them. The bible is quite descriptive of the other cultures and peoples the Israelites interacted with. I would expect the same from the BOM.

It’s amazing to me that people believe they should be able to go to where these events occurred and see their belongings left, in good condition as when they died. Honestly!?%#$

Not in the same condition, but surely recognizable. 421 AD is just this morning in archeological time. Much older sites (even in the Americas) have yielded artifacts in good condition that can easily be tied to specific cultures. Nothing connected to the Nephites has ever been found.

I understand that it is difficult to defend the BOM. I used to do it myself. So I feel for you, brother.

God love you,
Paul

 

[dianaiad]

We don’t need prophets to know that a higher being exists. I don’t think God ever leaves humans alone. Are people who have never heard about God “alone”? Why did Jesus visit the Americas but not Asia and Africa, the Pacific Islands and Australia, and go back in time to visit neanderthals? Do you have to have a prophet or Jesus in person to know God is with us?

uhmn…

Are you telling me that one does not need to know and accept Jesus to be saved? Why, if what you are saying is true, did God send any prophets to anybody at all? Why did He send His Son?