Who Else Saw The Plates Besides Smith?

[pnewton]

No, the point still stands. You are claiming that Christ left the peoples of the new world without any of His teachings for 1500 years.

He left them a lot longer than that. In fact he let the world go for thousands of years before He took the form of Man. Catholic simply do not believe that this meas God left people without any guide, as he has put that knowledge of good and evil in all our hearts. It is intereesting that if God sent the Americans knowledge of Christianity before Europeans came, why weren’t there any Mormons already here? How many generations of Amercan Indians, and others, went without Mormon teaching until the Advent Of Joseph Smith?

 

[pnewton]

Wrong again, it’s not the Catholic Church but the LDS and believers of the Book of Mormon that is being referred to, can’t you see that? It’s as clear as a bell for goodness sakes!

I regret that some still miss the basic principle known as begging the question. I took the passage to refer to the New York Yankees.

 

[MelanieAnne]

One of today’s readings (the first reading) warned about the very thing that is the topic of this thread, isn’t that sort of coincidence interesting?

I’ll quote the specific part that got my attention but the entire reading was from Deuteronomy 18:15-20.

“If a prophet presumes to speak in my name an oracle that I have not commanded him to speak, or speaks in the name of other gods, he shall die”.

Considering that phrase of scripture, it’s interesting that Joseph Smith died an early death.

My assessment is that, with the early death of Joseph Smith, God was silencing a false prophet, but others will believe as they choose. I choose to believe in God. The one true God. Not a pantheon of gods. Not the “mormon” god. There are too many gods in the mormon pantheon to choose from!

I submit that those who follow the fanciful “Book of Mormon” would be wise to put away this childish fairy tale and put their efforts to more productive use. Unless, of course, their reasons for being here at CATHOLIC ANSWERS are simply to continue to promote their agenda, in which case, such persons will continue to post in furtherance of that agenda.

(Note to my fellow Catholics ~ “feeding the troll” ~ i.e. continuing to answer certain posters with an obvious agenda ~ enables them to continue to post things that others will find via an internet search. The best thing you can do with a troll is IGNORE them. Your obligation here is not like real life where it should be incumbent upon you to clarify error. A troll is seeking BANDWIDTH, they want an AUDIENCE for their AGENDA. Every time you answer them you give them another forum to promote their agenda. Most trolls will not admit this, in fact it would be unusual for that to occur. If it does, BELIEVE IT!)

 

[dianaiad]

Well, I am glad you finally read it. You have to admit that the BOM is quite an unusual text. They mixed together anything that they could find fact, fiction, and legend, even slightly relative to the subject of pre-Columbian American history.

Yes, I suspect that there are scraps of even :whacky:" Beowulf" in it. Why else could Tolkien, a noted linguist, have been interested in the subject?

Well now, I have to admit that this reasoning is so convoluted that it…nope, it doesn’t make sense to me even yet. You think that there must be some aspects of Beowulf (written in Old English) in it because Tolkien (a life long and devout Catholic) may have read the Book of Mormon at one time?

…and that is a very big ‘may…’ There is nothing in his rather extensive bibliography that is about the Book of Mormon, nor is there any indication that he examined it with any sort of eye, never mind a linguist’s eye—though he might have been interested in dealing with some of the literary devices found there, like chiasmus.

OK, back on track here…Tolkien translated Beowulf (I prefer Seamus Heaney’s translation, if I have to read it in translation; I actually prefer to read it in the original. Most of its fun is in the literary devices that require the original sounds to work)

Dang…I’m going all English teacher here. Let me try again.

Because Tolkien translated Beowulf from Old English, you think that the Book of Mormon has hints of Beowulf in it even though its first translation into modern English was in 1837 (quite awhile after the BoM was first published) in England by J.M Kemble…and Joseph Smith had NO access to it?

OK…now when on earth was Tolkien ‘interested in the subject?’ If he wrote anything about the Book of Mormon, I sure can’t find it.

Diana, really confused.

 

[dianaiad]

He left them a lot longer than that. In fact he let the world go for thousands of years before He took the form of Man. Catholic simply do not believe that this meas God left people without any guide, as he has put that knowledge of good and evil in all our hearts. It is intereesting that if God sent the Americans knowledge of Christianity before Europeans came, why weren’t there any Mormons already here? How many generations of Amercan Indians, and others, went without Mormon teaching until the Advent Of Joseph Smith?

He did?

And I suppose that David, Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Isaiah et.al were meaningless exercises in feather waving?

God did not leave His people alone. Ever. Anywhere.

 

[ricko]

Diana, he is referring to the physical presence of Jesus.

 

[Ross09]

He did?

And I suppose that David, Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Isaiah et.al were meaningless exercises in feather waving?

God did not leave His people alone. Ever. Anywhere.

You make no sense. You were the first to assert that God left the peoples of the Americas alone for 1500 years after the apostacy of the church in the Americas. We have countered your point with the exact idea you stated above, and now you have taken on our side of the argument as if it was your own. ???

 

[RebeccaJ]

uhmn…

Are you telling me that one does not need to know and accept Jesus to be saved? Why, if what you are saying is true, did God send any prophets to anybody at all? Why did He send His Son?

It is because you don’t understand original sin properly that you ask these questions.

To begin with, let’s get the error out of the way that original sin equals original guilt. This also is not a proper understanding of original sin.

Original sin was Adam and Eve disobeying God, with the express desire to be Gods. This sin, committed by our first parents, stained mankind. The whole of humanity was split from God. God made the world, perfectly, the sin of Adam stained the whole world with this sin. The world became broken.

You have evidence of this all around you, every day.

God’s purpose and design is for us to be with Him, not Satan’s design which is to keep us from God. God became Man in order to save the world. To set right what was wrong. **Christ died for all. **This truth is taught several times in the NT.

This is the Good News of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We are reconciled to God. Jesus has conquered death. We can be with God forever.

Jesus gave instructions to the Apostles, and the Apostles to the whole Church, to preach His Gospel and baptize those who believe.

The Church does not condemn those who by circumstances that are out of their control have not heard the message of our Lord, believe, and are baptized.

As Jesus said to His disciples:

John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin; but as it is they have no excuse for their sin.

The peoples of the Americas, and many people of the world today still, have not had Jesus speak to them, via us, His disciples. They have no sin. Their lack of baptism is not a sin. They will be judged for how they lived, according to their understanding of God.

Further, when Catholics say Salvation is through the Church, it is a two-fold statement. One, is literal baptism, which must be done as Christ’s Church intends. Which, intention includes understanding the nature of God.

The second, is not understood by the majority of Mormons I have spoken with. In fact, there has only been one Mormon of dozens that did understand. The Catholic Church is more than an organization. It is Christ’s Church, therefore, it is divine, just as Christ is divine. We do not separate the Church from Christ or Christ from the Church. They are One.

This is another reason why the restorationists idea of a “great apostasy” is also not possible. The Church that Christ established is One with Him. We, the baptized, living and dead, are One with Him. The Apostles, prophets and all the Saints, are One with Him.

So, to our differences regarding the people of the Americas, pre-Columbian. And any who lived without hearing the Word of God.

Christ paid the price, once, and for all. They are reconciled to God, just as we are. As they have never heard the Word of God, they cannot be judged for something they did not know.

We believe God is merciful and just. What more proof of this do you need than Jesus Christ? In His mercy many will find a just and glorious judgment.

 

[BOMC]

A recap for those coming in late:

Here is a list of the dictation witnesses:

[Joseph dictated, he never wrote. The entire manuscript was in the hand writing of other people. The following people wrote for Joseph or saw the process.]

• Martin Harris (A previous employer of Joseph’s who paid his debts in Palmyra and provided safe transportation for he and his wife to Harmony. He acted as scribe and took copies of the characters to New York to show scholars. Lost 116 pages, saw the plates and angel. Never denied his testimony.)
• Emma (Joseph’s wife, acted as scribe and was there when the plates were retrieved from the hill where they were buried. She witnessed many attacks against her husband as people tried to steal them from him.)
• Reuben Hale (Emma’s brother acted as scribe.)
• Isaac Hale (Emma’s father allowed them to live on his property and gave them protection. He was aware of the process.)
• Samuel Smith (Joseph’s younger brother came and stayed for a while relieving Emma and Rueben and acted as scribe.)
• Joseph Knight Sr. (Bought paper and supplies for Joseph so he could work uninterrupted. He traveled 30 miles each way to do so. He was aware of the process and testified in court that Joseph was a seer.)
• Oliver Cowdery (A school teacher whom Jesus appeared to and instructed him to go and help Joseph - free of charge. He was scribe for most of the record. He saw the plates in vision before hand, and later in person by the angel. Later he disaffected from Joseph but never denied his testimony of The Book.)
• Katharine Smith (Joseph’s sister who confirmed Joseph fasted and prayed several days after loosing 116 pages to Martin Harris.)
• Mary Whitmer (Housed and fed Joseph, Emma and Oliver under the direction of an angel who showed her the plates. She too was aware of the process.)
• **Christian Whitmer **(Eldest son of Mary, was a scribe.)
• **John Whitmer **(A younger brother with an aptitude for writing, also a scribe, later to become church historian.)
• David Whitmer (A younger brother, saw the angel and gold plates. He disaffected from Joseph but never denied his testimony of The Book.)
• Elizabeth Ann Whitmer (Youngest sister, sat and watched the process, hour after hour.)
• Hyrum (Joseph’s older brother, helped transport him, bring supplies, and oversaw the printing process.)
• Lucy (Joseph’s mother was privy to the whole process as was his father Joseph Sr.)
• Michael Morse (Emma’s brother-in-law saw the process.)
• Sarah Heller Conrad (Hired servant in the Whitmer home at the time the process was going on. Witnessed heavenly glory upon them. Details below.)

"Sunday, June 13, 1897-I conversed with one old lady eighty-eight years old who lived with David Whitmer when Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery were translating the Book of Mormon in the upper room of the house, and she, only a girl, saw them come down from [the] translating room several times when they looked so exceedingly white and strange that she inquired of Mrs. Whitmer the cause of their unusual appearance, but Mrs. Whitmer was unwilling to tell the hired girl the true cause, as it was a sacred, holy event connected with a holy, sacred work which was opposed and persecuted by nearly everyone who heard of it.

The girl felt so strangely at seeing so strange and unusual appearance, she finally told Mrs. Whitmer that she would not stay with her until she knew the cause of the strange looks of these men.

Sister Whitmer then told her what the men were doing in the room above and that the power of God was so great in the room that they could hardly endure it; at times angels were in the room in their glory, which nearly consumed them. This satisfied the girl." (Oliver B. Huntington, History of the Life of Oliver B. Huntington, p. 49-50)

Who recanted their witness?

NO ONE.

See www.bomchristian.com for more information.

 

[BOMC]

**The Original Twelve Witnesses: **

**

1. 
   *]Joseph Smith Jr.
   *]Martin Harris
   *]Oliver Cowdery
   *]David Whitmer
   *]Christian Whitmer
   *]Jacob Whitmer
   *]Peter Whitmer Jr.
   *]John Whitmer
   *]Hiram Page
   *]Joseph Smith Sr.
   *]Hyrum Smith
   *]Samuel Smith
   
   **
   **
   Who recanted their testimony?
   
   No one.**
   
   See www.jsfellowship.com for more information.

 

[BOMC]

**Who else saw the plates? **

Harrison G. Burgess

Finally (May 1833), I resolved to know whether I had proclaimed the truth or not, and commenced praying to the God of heaven, for a testimony of these things, when all at once the vision of my mind was opened, and a glorious personage clothed in white stood before me and exhibited to my view the plates, from which the Book of Mormon was taken. (Autobiography of Harrison Burgess, in Kenneth Glyn Hales, Windows, Tucson: Skyline Printing, 1985 p. 101.)

Luke Johnson

While there I (John D. Lee) met Luke Johnson (1846), one of the witnesses to the Book of Mormon. I had a curiosity to talk with him concerning the same. We took a walk down on the river bank. I asked him if the statement he signed about seeing the angel and the plates, was true. If he did see the plates from which the Book of Mormon was printed or translated. He said it was true. I then said, ‘How is it that you have left the Church? If the angel appeared to you, and you saw the plates, how can you now live out of the Church? I understand you were one of the twelve apostles at the first organization of the Church?’ ‘I was one of the twelve,’ said he, 'I have not denied the truth of the Book of Mormon. (John D. Lee, Mormonism Unveiled or the Life and Confessions of the Late Bishop John D. Lee, St. Louis: Bryan, 1877, p. 184)

Mary Whitmer

I have heard my grandmother (Mary Musselman Whitmer) say on several occasions that she was shown the plates of the Book of Mormon by a holy angel, whom she always called Brother Nephi. It was at the time, she said, when the translation was going on at the house of the elder Peter Whitmer, her husband. Joseph Smith with his wife and Oliver Cowdery, whom David Whitmer a short time previous had brought up from Harmony, Pennsylvania, were all boarding with the Whitmers, and my grandmother in having so many extra persons to care for, besides her own large household, was often overloaded with work to such an extent that she felt it to be quite a burden. One evening, when (after having done her usual day’s work in the house) she went to the barn to milk the cows, she met a stranger carrying something on his back that looked like a knapsack. At first she was a little afraid of him, but when he spoke to her in a kind, friendly tone and began to explain to her the nature of the work which was going on in her house, she was filled with inexpressible joy and satisfaction. He then untied his knapsack and showed her a bundle of plates, which in size and appearance corresponded with the description subsequently given by the witnesses to the Book of Mormon. This strange person turned the leaves of the book of plates over, leaf after leaf, and also showed her the engravings upon them; after which he told her to be patient and faithful in bearing her burden a little longer, promising that if she would do so, she should be blessed; and her reward would be sure, if she proved faithful to the end. The personage then suddenly vanished with the plates, and where he went, she could not tell. From that moment my grandmother was enabled to perform her household duties with comparative ease, and she felt no more inclination to murmur because her lot was hard. I knew my grandmother to be a good, noble and truthful woman, and I have not the least doubt of her statement in regard to seeing the plates being strictly true. She was a strong believer in the Book of Mormon until the day of her death. (Historical Record, Vol. 7, p. 621; Orson Pratt/Joseph F. Smith Interview, 7-8 September 1878, Richmond, Missouri, Joseph F. Smith Diary, Latter-day Saint Church Archives, in Cook, David Whitmer Interviews, p. 28.)

Who recanted their testimony?

No one!

See www.bookmormon.com for more information.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I’m all for this entire thread beging deleted.

 

[BOMC]

Facts no opinions.

 

[pnewton]

He did?

And I suppose that David, Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Isaiah et.al were meaningless exercises in feather waving?

No, but they were not Jesus. That is the question* you* put forward that I was responding to. Re-read your own post. You specifically mention:

You are claiming that **Christ **left the peoples of the new world without any of His teachings for 1500 years.

But for the record, David, Moses and Abraham also did not appear to the Americas, at least until we get The Book of Mormon 2: The Prequel.

 

[dianaiad]

Diana, he is referring to the physical presence of Jesus.

If that’s true, then He left everybody alone, didn’t He? He was only physically with us, actually teaching, for three years. Three out of thousands upon thousands of years.

But…no…

God spoke with us through prophets before His Son arrived physically.He appointed apostles and spoke to them after He died and was resurrected, and His gospel spread very quickly through the old world.

Even though WE believe that the people soon fell away and lost the priesthood authority, the basic and most important things remained: Christ and Him crucified.

Except, of course, in the New World. And that’s what I am talking about. Why was that? Why was it, in your opinion, OK for Him to leave those people completely bereft of Him for all those years?

 

[dianaiad]

You make no sense. You were the first to assert that God left the peoples of the Americas alone for 1500 years after the apostacy of the church in the Americas. We have countered your point with the exact idea you stated above, and now you have taken on our side of the argument as if it was your own. ???

No, Ross.

I’m a Mormon. That’s the LAST thing I would assert.

I"m arguing that since God didn’t leave anybody ELSE alone for that long, it’s really odd that He left the Americas alone for lo those many years.

 

[dianaiad]

It is because you don’t understand original sin properly that you ask these questions.

Please don’t tell me that you buy into Calvin…

To begin with, let’s get the error out of the way that original sin equals original guilt. This also is not a proper understanding of original sin.

Original sin was Adam and Eve disobeying God, with the express desire to be Gods. This sin, committed by our first parents, stained mankind. The whole of humanity was split from God. God made the world, perfectly, the sin of Adam stained the whole world with this sin. The world became broken.

You have evidence of this all around you, every day.

God’s purpose and design is for us to be with Him, not Satan’s design which is to keep us from God. God became Man in order to save the world. To set right what was wrong. **Christ died for all. **This truth is taught several times in the NT.

This is the Good News of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We are reconciled to God. Jesus has conquered death. We can be with God forever.

Jesus gave instructions to the Apostles, and the Apostles to the whole Church, to preach His Gospel and baptize those who believe.

The Church does not condemn those who by circumstances that are out of their control have not heard the message of our Lord, believe, and are baptized.

I actually do not believe in “original sin.” I understand the concept very well, actually, and your concept of it comes rather closer to our idea of what actually happened than, say, Calvinism or his derivatives. What Adam brought into the world was sin (well, his, but we are responsible for ours and always have been) and death…and Christ took care of that on the cross. Completely and utterly; it is why we will ALL be resurrected, every single one of us.

This understanding of His sacrifice is why we do not believe in, or practice, infant baptism.

As Jesus said to His disciples:

John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin; but as it is they have no excuse for their sin.

The peoples of the Americas, and many people of the world today still, have not had Jesus speak to them, via us, His disciples. They have no sin. Their lack of baptism is not a sin. They will be judged for how they lived, according to their understanding of God.

Further, when Catholics say Salvation is through the Church, it is a two-fold statement. One, is literal baptism, which must be done as Christ’s Church intends. Which, intention includes understanding the nature of God.

The second, is not understood by the majority of Mormons I have spoken with. In fact, there has only been one Mormon of dozens that did understand. The Catholic Church is more than an organization. It is Christ’s Church, therefore, it is divine, just as Christ is divine. We do not separate the Church from Christ or Christ from the Church. They are One.

A John 17:11 sort of 'oneness?"

This is another reason why the restorationists idea of a “great apostasy” is also not possible. The Church that Christ established is One with Him. We, the baptized, living and dead, are One with Him. The Apostles, prophets and all the Saints, are One with Him.

Well, we too believe that this was so during John’s time. Somebody moved.

So, to our differences regarding the people of the Americas, pre-Columbian. And any who lived without hearing the Word of God.

Christ paid the price, once, and for all. They are reconciled to God, just as we are. As they have never heard the Word of God, they cannot be judged for something they did not know.

We believe God is merciful and just. What more proof of this do you need than Jesus Christ? In His mercy many will find a just and glorious judgment.

Actually, this is very close to how we believe things to be, Rebecca. Almost exactly, actually.

Now if you wouldn’t mind reconciling that concept with infant baptism? It seems to be a vital part of Catholic belief, that an infant be baptized as soon as possible. This requirement doesn’t seem to mesh with what you are describing.

Perhaps I misunderstand the reasoning behind baptizing infants?
I went to this site [catholic.com/library/Infant_Baptism.asp(a](http://www.catholic.com/library/Infant_Baptism.asp(a) Catholic one…I won’t ever go to a non-Catholic site to find out what Catholics believe) and got this:

"Since the New Testament era, the Catholic Church has always understood baptism differently, teaching that it is a sacrament which accomplishes several things, the first of which is the remission of sin, both original sin and actual sin—only original sin in the case of infants and young children, since they are incapable of actual sin; and both original and actual sin in the case of older persons. "

Ok, so baptism is a sacrament more than an ordinance, and it is for the remission of original sin (in the case of infants).

While I admire and understand the reasoning behind both positions (though I don’t agree that infants require baptizing) I honestly do not, quite, see how the two are reconciled.

 

[dianaiad]

One of today’s readings (the first reading) warned about the very thing that is the topic of this thread, isn’t that sort of coincidence interesting?

I’ll quote the specific part that got my attention but the entire reading was from Deuteronomy 18:15-20.

“If a prophet presumes to speak in my name an oracle that I have not commanded him to speak, or speaks in the name of other gods, he shall die”.

Considering that phrase of scripture, it’s interesting that Joseph Smith died an early death.

Uhmmn…so did most Catholic saints, MelanieAnne…and isn’t that one of the requirements of sainthood, that the person have either overcome, or been subject to, great pain and/or early death or something akin to that? It seems that Peter and Paul and a LOT of early Christians died early. Shoot, Jesus Himself was only 33…I think you need to be careful about deciding that an early death proves that the man was a false prophet.

In fact, false prophets tended to live longer. They were more popular, tending to give the folks what they wanted to hear. I think we all understand that in this case, “death” was referring to something a bit different from the physical.

My assessment is that, with the early death of Joseph Smith, God was silencing a false prophet, but others will believe as they choose. I choose to believe in God. The one true God. Not a pantheon of gods. Not the “mormon” god. There are too many gods in the mormon pantheon to choose from!

Nope, there’s only one, Melanie. We do not worship any God but God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost.

I submit that those who follow the fanciful “Book of Mormon” would be wise to put away this childish fairy tale and put their efforts to more productive use. Unless, of course, their reasons for being here at CATHOLIC ANSWERS are simply to continue to promote their agenda, in which case, such persons will continue to post in furtherance of that agenda.

Actually, my reason for being here is not to promote MY agenda. It is to spike the guns of the antis, so that any discussion of Mormonism will actually have more than one side to it. I think that Mormons should be included in any discussion about Mormonism. Call me nuts, but…

(Note to my fellow Catholics ~ “feeding the troll” ~ i.e. continuing to answer certain posters with an obvious agenda ~ enables them to continue to post things that others will find via an internet search. The best thing you can do with a troll is IGNORE them. Your obligation here is not like real life where it should be incumbent upon you to clarify error. A troll is seeking BANDWIDTH, they want an AUDIENCE for their AGENDA. Every time you answer them you give them another forum to promote their agenda. Most trolls will not admit this, in fact it would be unusual for that to occur. If it does, BELIEVE IT!)

Well, here’s a solution, Melanie; if you don’t want to see me here on this forum, don’t discuss Mormonism here. Especially don’t discuss Mormonism and disseminate inaccurate information about it, and you won’t see me at all. I have no interest in attacking or destroying your beliefs. My only agenda is to answer attacks upon mine.

Or haven’t you noticed that I am nowhere else on this forum, and haven’t started any threads at all, much less any with 'an agenda?"

Diana

“Beware, this animal is dangerous, it defends itself when attacked.” (translated from the French)

 

[pnewton]

No, Ross.

I’m a Mormon. That’s the LAST thing I would assert.

I"m arguing that since God didn’t leave anybody ELSE alone for that long, it’s really odd that He left the Americas alone for lo those many years.

There are many other primitive peoples that have been even later than the Americas in hearing the gospel. Catholic doctrine is that these people were no left alone. God has spoken in ways other than prophets. He also speaks in creation and in our innate sense of right and wrong that we call our conscience. All people can still respond to the the truth that has been revealed, even the Native Americans, B.C., aborigonees, oriental cultures, African tribes, etc.

 

[MelanieAnne]

I’m all for this entire thread beging deleted.

Where can I sign THAT petition?

This thread has become a vehicle for certain posters to publicize their agenda on the internet.