Who Else Saw The Plates Besides Smith?

[Jerusha]

I vote in favor.

Daina’s straw man was the last straw.

She is obviously either a hypocrite, if she can read *Beowulf *in the original, or in the grip of a delusion far greater than what we mere humans can dissuade her of.

She can extract no meaning from LOTR, given the times in which it was written.

 

[Bill_Pick]

I vote in favor.

Daina’s straw man was the last straw.

She is obviously either a hypocrite, if she can read *Beowulf *in the original, or in the grip of a delusion far greater than what we mere humans can dissuade her of.

She can extract no meaning from LOTR, given the times in which it was written.

WHAT HAPPENED TO THE GOLDEN PLATES?

 

[MelanieAnne]

WHAT HAPPENED TO THE GOLDEN PLATES?

They were taken away by an angel.

But it’s not just that. All those “witnesses” listed before, never actually SAW them.

It’s because they never truly existed. It was all part of the “con”.

 

[Jerusha]

WHAT HAPPENED TO THE GOLDEN PLATES?

There were none. All they had was previous writings related to the subject. They DID have soemthing, but it wasn’t golden plates.

 

[BOMC]

But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world (Book of Mormon) to confound the wise (Modern day Pharisees); and God hath chosen the weak things of the world (Joseph of Egypt and Joseph of NY) to confound the things which are mighty; (Those who mock.) (1 Corinthians 1: 27)

 

[BOMC]

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2: 14)

 

[Bill_Pick]

just thinking ,what kind of religion is N/A

 

[MelanieAnne]

just thinking ,what kind of religion is N/A

N/A is probably the religion of someone too lacking in faith in their religion to actually disclose it?

Or maybe it’s the religion of someone who likes to play mind games with people?

Lucky for us, we can be proud to stand up and say we are members of the Church founded by Jesus Christ nearly 2000 years ago, and we’re still here! We don’t have to hide.

There ARE religions where hiding things is important ~ hiding doctrine, hiding origins, hiding THINGS as well as HIDING one’s membership in that religion. Ours is not one of them. THANKS BE TO GOD!

 

[BOMC]

And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good. (2 Nephi 33:10)

 

[BOMC]

32 But, O my people, beware lest there shall arise contentions among you, and ye list to obey the evil spirit, which was spoken of by my father Mosiah.
33 For behold, there is a wo pronounced upon him who listeth to obey that spirit; for if he listeth to obey him, and remaineth and dieth in his sins, the same drinketh damnation to his own soul; for he receiveth for his wages an everlasting punishment, having transgressed the law of God contrary to his own knowledge. (Mosiah 2)

 

[Ross09]

What are you hoping to accomplish w/the above 2 posts BOMC?

 

[MelanieAnne]

What are you hoping to accomplish w/the above 2 posts BOMC?

He’s trying to get as much Book of Mormon propaganda as possible up on the internet? To get the message out to as many people as possible? And get it all on the dime of Catholic Answers? Just guessing…

 

[dianaiad]

No, but they were not Jesus. That is the question* you* put forward that I was responding to. Re-read your own post. You specifically mention: But for the record, David, Moses and Abraham also did not appear to the Americas, at least until we get The Book of Mormon 2: The Prequel.

Are you here claiming that Jesus Christ stuck around for 1500 years? You are equivocating. All we know of His teachings come from other people, since He Himself never wrote a word.

 

[Ross09]

No, Ross.

I’m a Mormon. That’s the LAST thing I would assert.

I"m arguing that since God didn’t leave anybody ELSE alone for that long, it’s really odd that He left the Americas alone for lo those many years.

My point was that he didn’t. In my first post. As I understand it, you are saying if Jesus did not appear to the Americas after the Resurrection, then they were left alone for 1500 years.

I concluded no one has to be visited by Jesus or have a prophet to know God is with us, so we are never alone. Shortly after, you posted to someone else that you believe we are never alone. So we agree, right?

Now, with this response to me, you say you can’t believe God would have left the Americas alone for 1500 years so Jesus must have come to them. Well, if you believe that we are never alone, then why make the argument that Jesus came to the Americas so the Native Americans “wouldn’t be alone for 1500 years?” If neither Mormons nor Catholics believe God leaves us, then why use that concept as an argument?

 

[jim1130]

Tell me how this is NOT heretical?

“The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel–you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil [died] before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 348).

“This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. Joseph Smith taught: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. . . . He was once a man like us; . . . God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-46).” lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-59,00.html

I ask: If we were born of heavenly parents and God is our father then who is our mother? Did God the Heavenly Father have a harem of wives to father these spiritual beings? Did God the Heavenly Father house concubines in this “eternal mansion?”

They say: Chapter 2 – Our Heavenly Family: “God is not only our ruler and creator; he is also our Heavenly Father. “All men and women are . . . literally the sons and daughters of Deity. . . . Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body” (Joseph F. Smith, “The Origin of Man,” Improvement Era, Nov. 1909, pp. 78, 80). lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-5,00.html

And if Jesus was born of Heavenly parents, then with whom did God the Heavenly Father have conjugal rights to sire Jesus?

Chapter 2 – Our Heavenly Family: “The first spirit born to our heavenly parents was Jesus Christ (see D&C 93:21)…” lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-5,00.html

How is this not 100 % unfiltered heresy?

 

[jim1130]

.

That there ever were a set of golden plates from God which Smith dug out of the earth seems very doubtful.

There were NEVER any plates! EVER! Smith duped millions of people! Are there any theologians out there debunking this heresy perpetuated by Smith?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Please don’t tell me that you buy into Calvin…

I didn’t say anything about Calvin.

I actually do not believe in “original sin.” I understand the concept very well, actually, and your concept of it comes rather closer to our idea of what actually happened than, say, Calvinism or his derivatives. What Adam brought into the world was sin (well, his, but we are responsible for ours and always have been) and death…and Christ took care of that on the cross. Completely and utterly; it is why we will ALL be resurrected, every single one of us.

You are still not understanding. Otherwise, you wouldn’t say this:

This understanding of His sacrifice is why we do not believe in, or practice, infant baptism.

We actually agree with you on that, Rebecca. The problem is, if this were so, really, why do YOU practice infant baptism? Why is it necessary? That question isn’t an attack on the practice, it is an honest question; how does the practice of baptizing infants march with the above statement?

Mormons do not distinguish between Original sin, and sin as a personal act that defies God.

As I said, Original sin has stained the world. It also has stained our souls, passed on from Adam and Eve. A valid baptism marks one’s soul, permanently, as having been received unto Christ.

This is why the Church recognizes one valid baptism, and goes to great care to not rebaptize.

Well, we too believe that this was so during John’s time. Somebody moved.

?

Now if you wouldn’t mind reconciling that concept with infant baptism? It seems to be a vital part of Catholic belief, that an infant be baptized as soon as possible. This requirement doesn’t seem to mesh with what you are describing.

When we are baptized, we are brought into the Body of Christ. This Body is a mystical union, of being One with Christ, the Apostles, prophets, all the saints and each other. It is the desire of the Church and of Catholic parents that our children be a part of this community.

I don’t understand why you would want to wait, as baptism provides many graces that are gifts to the growing child. Seems to me mormons deny their children these graces.

Perhaps I misunderstand the reasoning behind baptizing infants?
I went to this site catholic.com/library/Infant_Baptism.asp(a Catholic one…I won’t ever go to a non-Catholic site to find out what Catholics believe) and got this:

"Since the New Testament era, the Catholic Church has always understood baptism differently, teaching that it is a sacrament which accomplishes several things, the first of which is the remission of sin, both original sin and actual sin—only original sin in the case of infants and young children, since they are incapable of actual sin; and both original and actual sin in the case of older persons. "

Ok, so baptism is a sacrament more than an ordinance, and it is for the remission of original sin (in the case of infants).

While I admire and understand the reasoning behind both positions (though I don’t agree that infants require baptizing) I honestly do not, quite, see how the two are reconciled.

That’s because you do not understand original sin.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Tell me how this is NOT heretical?

“The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel–you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil [died] before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 348).

“This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. Joseph Smith taught: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. . . . He was once a man like us; . . . God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-46).” lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-59,00.html

I ask: If we were born of heavenly parents and God is our father then who is our mother? Did God the Heavenly Father have a harem of wives to father these spiritual beings? Did God the Heavenly Father house concubines in this “eternal mansion?”

They say: Chapter 2 – Our Heavenly Family: “God is not only our ruler and creator; he is also our Heavenly Father. “All men and women are . . . literally the sons and daughters of Deity. . . . Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body” (Joseph F. Smith, “The Origin of Man,” Improvement Era, Nov. 1909, pp. 78, 80). lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-5,00.html

And if Jesus was born of Heavenly parents, then with whom did God the Heavenly Father have conjugal rights to sire Jesus?

Chapter 2 – Our Heavenly Family: “The first spirit born to our heavenly parents was Jesus Christ (see D&C 93:21)…” lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-5,00.html

How is this not 100 % unfiltered heresy?

Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden of Eden because they believed the lie that they could become like God.

Fast-forward to the 19th Century and Joseph Smith is teaching the same lie.

It was a lie the first time, it is still a lie. People need to consider where the first lie came from, perhaps then they can discern the source when it recurs, whenever that is.

 

[BOMC]

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. (Matthew 7:2)

Facts, no opinions!

 

[BOMC]

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. (John 10:16)

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Matthew 15:24)

14 And not at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell it unto your brethren at Jerusalem.
15 Neither at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell unto them concerning the other tribes of the house of Israel, whom the Father hath led away out of the land.
16 This much did the Father command me, that I should tell unto them:
17 That other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
18 And now, because of stiffneckedness and unbelief they understood not my word; therefore I was commanded to say no more of the Father concerning this thing unto them.
19 But, verily, I say unto you that the Father hath commanded me, and I tell it unto you, that ye were separated from among them because of their iniquity; therefore it is because of their iniquity that they KNOW NOT OF YOU. (3 Nephi 15)