Who Else Saw The Plates Besides Smith?

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BOMC said:
**Who else saw the plates? **

Harrison G. Burgess

Finally (May 1833), I resolved to know whether I had proclaimed the truth or not, and commenced praying to the God of heaven, for a testimony of these things, when all at once the vision of my mind was opened, and a glorious personage clothed in white stood before me and exhibited to my view the plates, from which the Book of Mormon was taken. (Autobiography of Harrison Burgess, in Kenneth Glyn Hales, Windows, Tucson: Skyline Printing, 1985 p. 101.)
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Seeing with “spiritual eyes” is NOT witnessing the actual plates. Try again.

**
Luke Johnson
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Mary Whitmer**

Second-hand (at best) accounts.
Who recanted their testimony?
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The second-hand accounts cannot be recanted, as they are not even a testimony.

The other is not a testimony either, as it a person claiming a vision with no verification of that vision. It is like me, coming here, now, and saying an angel appeared to me last night. Cool for me, yes, but are you going to believe me? In other words, a vision is only self-evident for the person who had the vision. It is not evidence for anyone else.****
 
BOMC said:
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. (John 10:16)

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Matthew 15:24)

14 And not at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell it unto your brethren at Jerusalem.
15 Neither at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell unto them concerning the other tribes of the house of Israel, whom the Father hath led away out of the land.
16 This much did the Father command me, that I should tell unto them:
17 That other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
18 And now, because of stiffneckedness and unbelief they understood not my word; therefore I was commanded to say no more of the Father concerning this thing unto them.
19 But, verily, I say unto you that the Father hath commanded me, and I tell it unto you, that **ye were separated from among them because of their iniquity; therefore it is **because of their iniquity that they KNOW NOT OF YOU. (3 Nephi 15)
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Perhaps you don’t understand that Jesus is the fulfillment of Jewish prophecies. Up to this time, Israel and Gentile were strictly separate. Two folds. Jesus is proclaiming he is the sheherd, and there is one fold. The Gentiles are the other sheep.
 
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me. (Acts 22:9)

**MARTIN HARRIS CORRECTS THE IGNORANT REGARDING WHAT HE MEANT:
**
“Gentlemen,” holding out his hand, “do you see that hand? Are you sure you see it? Or are your eyes playing you a trick or something? No. Well, AS SURE AS YOU SEE MY HAND SO SURE DID I SEE THE ANGEL AND THE PLATES.”

"NO MAN HEARD ME IN ANY WAY DENY THE TRUTH OF THE BOOK OF MORMON [OR] THE ADMINISTRATION OF THE ANGEL THAT SHOWED ME THE PLATES."
 
BOMC said:
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me. (Acts 22:9)

**MARTIN HARRIS CORRECTS THE IGNORANT REGARDING WHAT HE MEANT:
**
“Gentlemen,” holding out his hand, “do you see that hand? Are you sure you see it? Or are your eyes playing you a trick or something? No. Well, AS SURE AS YOU SEE MY HAND SO SURE DID I SEE THE ANGEL AND THE PLATES.”

"NO MAN HEARD ME IN ANY WAY DENY THE TRUTH OF THE BOOK OF MORMON [OR] THE ADMINISTRATION OF THE ANGEL THAT SHOWED ME THE PLATES."
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1 John 4: Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

So Martin Harris says, still not evidence. And he of all people had the most to lose, or gain, from propagating this sort of thing about a book he financed.

An no Martin Harris is not the same as Paul. If you will recall, there are two separate people involved in Paul’s experience. One who was not with him on the road, at all. A person can say, Paul had a nice vision good for him, let’s see some proof. At which point, you can see what happened with Ananias. Who wasn’t with Paul on the road. Neither was Paul in the house with Ananias when he received his vision.

Also, those with Paul may or may not have heard (there are two accounts that differ), however, all saw the results of two separate testimonies, of two separate visions: blindness and the healing at the house of Ananias.

All you have with Martin Harris is the “testimony” of a man who invested a lot of time and money in the publication.
 
THEY UNDERSTAND NOT THE SCRIPTURES FOR THEY SEEK TO EXCUSE THEMSELVES (Jacob 2:23)

MAKING THE WORD OF GOD OF NONE EFFECT through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and MANY SUCH LIKE THINGS DO YE. (Mark 7:13)
 
BOMC said:
THEY UNDERSTAND NOT THE SCRIPTURES FOR THEY SEEK TO EXCUSE THEMSELVES (Jacob 2:23)

Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and MANY SUCH LIKE THINGS DO YE. (Mark 7:13)
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You have been deceived, and do not understand scripture at all. Otherwise, you would toss the foolishness that is the BoM. It is time to put away childish things.
 
20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man. (Mark 7)
 
Because I have told you the truth ye are angry with me. And again, because I have spoken the word of God ye have judged me that I am mad. (Mosiah 13:4)

And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness. (2 Nephi 33:11)
 
And the words which I have written in weakness will be made strong unto them; for it PERSUADETH THEM TO DO GOOD; it maketh known unto them of their fathers; and IT SPEAKETH OF JESUS, and persuadeth them to believe in him, and to endure to the end, which is life eternal.
5 And it speaketh harshly against sin, according to the plainness of the truth; WHEREFORE NO MAN WILL BE ANGRY AT THE WORDS WHICH I HAVE WRITTEN SAVE HE SHALL BE OF THE SPIRIT OF THE DEVIL! (2 Nephi 33)
 
BOMC said:
And the words which I have written in weakness will be made strong unto them; for it PERSUADETH THEM TO DO GOOD; it maketh known unto them of their fathers; and IT SPEAKETH OF JESUS, and persuadeth them to believe in him, and to endure to the end, which is life eternal.
5 And it speaketh harshly against sin, according to the plainness of the truth; WHEREFORE NO MAN WILL BE ANGRY AT THE WORDS WHICH I HAVE WRITTEN SAVE HE SHALL BE OF THE SPIRIT OF THE DEVIL! (2 Nephi 33)
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Yes, it is well known that Smith liked to prophecy great things about himself. This is along those same lines. Mohammed does the same in the Quran.

A false prophet speaks of themselves.
 
JOSEPH SMITH - AN UNBAPTIZED GENTILE - CALLED TO FULFILL 1 Corinthians 1:27 TO CONFOUND THE “WISE”:

But God hath chosen the FOOLISH things of the world to CONFOUND THE WISE; and God hath chosen the WEAK things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; (1 Corinthians 1:27)
 
MelanieAnne said:
Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden of Eden because they believed the lie that they could become like God.

Fast-forward to the 19th Century and Joseph Smith is teaching the same lie.

It was a lie the first time, it is still a lie. People need to consider where the first lie came from, perhaps then they can discern the source when it recurs, whenever that is.
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Thank you. You helped clarify for me this lie, too, that Mormons and LDS use to rationalize the fall of Adam and Eve:

Chapter 6 - The Fall of Adam and Eve

Great Blessings Resulted from the Transgression

Some people believe Adam and Eve committed a serious sin when they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. However, latter-day scriptures help us understand that their fall was a necessary step in the plan of life and a great blessing to all of us. Because of the Fall, we are blessed with physical bodies, the right to choose between good and evil, and the opportunity to gain eternal life. None of these privileges would have been ours had Adam and Eve remained in the garden.

After the Fall, Eve said, “Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed [children], and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient” (Moses 5:11).

The prophet Lehi explained:

"And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen [been cut off from the presence of God], but he would have remained in the Garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; . . .

"And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

"But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

“Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy” (2 Nephi 2:22-25).

lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-10,00.html
 
BOMC said:
MAKING THE WORD OF GOD OF NONE EFFECT through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and MANY SUCH LIKE THINGS DO YE. (Mark 7:13)
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Wow! Bold print and underlining. Colored fonts to boot.

You know none of this adds divinity to your interpretation which was aimed at a specific group, the Pharisees, not Christians.
 
While on his way home with the plates, he was met by what appeared to be a man, who demanded the plates, and struck him with a club on his side, which was all black and blue. Joseph knocked the man down, and then ran for home, and was much out of breath. When he arrived at home, he handed the plates in at the window, and they were received from him by his mother. They were then hidden under the hearth in his father’s house. But the wall being partly down, it was feared that certain ones, who were trying to get possession of the plates would get under the house and dig them out.
xmission.com/~research/about/docum4.htm

In the other account I posted the story was quite different. In the first account Joseph was hit with a gun, he knocked the man down and ran into two more blokes whom he bested because of his great strength. In the account above he is attacked by only one man and instead of being hit with a gun he is hit with a club.
 
Jesus called the founder of the RCC “Satan:”

But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked PETER, saying, GET BEHIND ME SATAN: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men. (Mark 8:33)
 
WHY WOULD JESUS TRUST “SATAN” i.e. PETER AS AN APOSTLE, or FOUNDER, or LEADER (you pick) OF HIS CHURCH???
 
WHY WOULD JESUS CHOSE A DENIER OF HIM, I.E. PETER, TO FOUND, LEAD, OR BE AN APOSTLE OF HIS CHURCH?

34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

61 And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. (Luke 22)

But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 10:33)

If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: (2 Timothy 2:12)
 
**
LOOK IN THE MIRROR:

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: (Matthew 7:2)**
 
BOMC said:
**
LOOK IN THE MIRROR:

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: (Matthew 7:2)**
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Who here has judged you BOMC? So we don’t accept the plates existed. What’s with all of these off the wall posts about judgment? What reaction are you hoping for?
 
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