Who Else Saw The Plates Besides Smith?

[BOMC]

All of this Mormon stuff was already addressed in the scriptures we already have. Scriptures we have had for nearly 2000 years. If someone is interested in the chapter and verse, feel free to send a PM, but it has been quoted routinely in this forum.

Do not comment on The Book of Mormon unless you have studied it.

In the meantime, Jesus, through Paul, left the last instruction about this sort of thing.

Paul saw God and knew he was alive, and would speak so long as a person would listen.

We have been told, in scripture, that those faiths that purport to come starting with visits from an “angel” should be disregarded.

Was that your own twist, or who did you borrow it from?

The Holy Spirit, through Saint Paul the Apostle, has already told us that both Mormonism and Islam are “anathema”.

Please do not confuse The Book of Mormon with Mormonism.

Thanks.

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[MelanieAnne]

You’re resisting the Good News of Jesus when you argue against TBOM.

Why are you two resisting the words of Jesus?

I await your answers.

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The Jesus we know doesn’t appear in the Book of Mormon. So we are resisting nothing.

The Book of Mormon is the invention of a man (or perhaps it might be more accurate to say a group of men.)

 

[MelanieAnne]

Do not comment on The Book of Mormon unless you have studied it.

I’ve read it and studied it. And I’d just bet I know a darn sight more about Mormonism than you know about Christianity.

Paul saw God and knew he was alive, and would speak so long as a person would listen.

And, through Paul, he left a warning against things like the purported “Book of Mormon”.

Was that your own twist, or who did you borrow it from?

It’s from the New Testament. And if you were a student of the New Testament, and not a believer in Mormonism, you should know that.

Please do not confuse The Book of Mormon with Mormonism.

There is no confusion because there is no difference. It’s all the same subject. The Book of Mormon is a work of plagiarism and fiction which the faith of Mormonism considers “scripture”.

 

[MGLechner]

No. Smith, Cowdery, and Patt re-worked a manuscript from Rigdon. What the witnesses saw was that manuscript. Rigdon, in turn, had added the Jewish origins theory, passages from Isaiah, possibly from Beowulf (treasure would spark Joseph’s interest), and his own stuff to a manuscript by Solomon Spalding. Spalding’s manuscript, in turn, was inspired by speeches by Tecumseh and Tenskawatawa and other Native lore about the Viking invasion.

I am tracking down other possibilities, too.

One minor correction, his name was Pratt. I believe his first name was Parley. I too believe that Smith used Sidney Rigdon’s manuscript as the foundation for his Book of Mormon. Apparently he used a “seer stone” to “translate” the mythical golden plates, that were then taken back to Heaven by the Angel Moroni.

 

[Jerusha]

Typo.

Yeah. Did you know that “talking through his hat”, for a person making up tall tales, had to do with mercury poisoning that often made hatters act crazy, and it may have originated with people describing JS?

 

[pnewton]

You’re resisting the Good News of Jesus when you argue against TBOM.

Why are you two resisting the words of Jesus?

I await your answers.

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Is this a joke? Do you not see the illogic of this statement, blatant and deliberate begging the question? It is not the words of Jesus anyone resist. It is Joseph Smith’s fairy tales. If the stories are true, show us the plates.

 

[BOMC]

Straw man for sure. Anyone believing TBOM and Mormonism are the same have swallowed delusions.

Let’s knock them down.

First, quote something from TBOM that supports Mormonism. I’ll wait your reply.

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[SirKnight2007]

How can both the Mormon religion and the Book of Mormon NOT support each other? In Mormonism, one is dependent on the other. If not, your religion falls through the cracks and ceases to be a church and even less, the “true church of christ”.

It really dosen’t add up, sorry.

 

[BOMC]

First of, I am a Book of Mormon believing Christian. Second, the keystone of Mormonism IS D&C 132.

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[MelanieAnne]

First of, I am a Book of Mormon believing Christian. Second, the keystone of Mormonism IS D&C 132.

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Mormons are not Christian as the term is traditionally understood. The Mormon view of the Godhead is polytheistic.

 

[BOMC]

Answer the question - What in TBOM supports Mormonism?

Learn how they’re different.

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[BOMC]

No. Smith, Cowdery, and Patt re-worked a manuscript from Rigdon. What the witnesses saw was that manuscript. Rigdon, in turn, had added the Jewish origins theory, passages from Isaiah, possibly from Beowulf (treasure would spark Joseph’s interest), and his own stuff to a manuscript by Solomon Spalding. Spalding’s manuscript, in turn, was inspired by speeches by Tecumseh and Tenskawatawa and other Native lore about the Viking invasion.

I am tracking down other possibilities, too.

Here we go again with that spirit of arrogance…do you really believe you can belittle the teachings of Christ, as found in The Book of Mormon, and get away with it?

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[SirKnight2007]

The Book of Mormon and Mormonism are not different. In fact, disbelieving in this is pure contradiction to what your general authorities teach and general church body teaches. According to them, you’d either be ill-informed or in a state of apostasy.

Your pick.

 

[Jerusha]

Here we go again with that spirit of arrogance…do you really believe you can belittle the teachings of Christ, as found in The Book of Mormon, and get away with it?

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I can recognize satire when I see it.

 

[BOMC]

The Book of Mormon and Mormonism are not different.

I am a Book of Mormon Christian and not a Mormon. I clearly know how they are different, you don’t. Look at the title of this thread. Stick to the topic.

In fact, disbelieving in this is pure contradiction to what your general authorities teach and general church body teaches. According to them, you’d either be ill-informed or in a state of apostasy.

According to TBOM, they are in a state of apostasy. If you really want to reprove the Mormons, try using TBOM! Amazing.

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[SirKnight2007]

You just don’t stop, nor get it…

 

[BOMC]

I can recognize satire when I see it.

Yes Jerusha, I have read your comments on the different threads and you have had a fun time belittling the Word of God and in taking pride in arrogant views of how The Book of Mormon came about. It is almost beneath me to dignify such rantings with a response, yet for your arrogance to be humbled take note of some facts:

1. In whose hand writing is the Original Manuscript? Not Pratt or Rigdon.
2. In whose hand writing is the Printer’s Manuscript? Not Pratt or Rigdon.
3. Did Rigdon deny those lies? Yes he did.
4. Were there witnesses to the dictation process? Yes there were. Did any of them ever see Rigdon or Pratt during that time? No they did not. Did any of them ever recant their witness of the process? No they did not.

Here is a list of the dictation witnesses, read it and repent:

Joseph dictated, he never wrote. The entire manuscript was in the hand writing of other people. The following people wrote for Joseph or saw the process:

• Martin Harris (A previous employer of Joseph’s who paid his debts in Palmyra and provided safe transportation for he and his wife to Harmony. He acted as scribe and took copies of the characters to New York to show scholars. Lost 116 pages, saw the plates and angel. Never denied his testimony.)
• Emma (Joseph’s wife, acted as scribe and was there when the plates were retrieved from the hill where they were buried. She witnessed many attacks against her husband as people tried to steal them from him.)
• Reuben Hale (Emma’s brother acted as scribe.)
• Isaac Hale (Emma’s father allowed them to live on his property and gave them protection. He was aware of the process.)
• Samuel Smith (Joseph’s younger brother came and stayed for a while relieving Emma and Rueben and acted as scribe.)
• Joseph Knight Sr. (Bought paper and supplies for Joseph so he could work uninterrupted. He traveled 30 miles each way to do so. He was aware of the process and testified in court that Joseph was a seer.)
• Oliver Cowdery (A school teacher whom Jesus appeared to and instructed him to go and help Joseph - free of charge. He was scribe for most of the record. He saw the plates in vision before hand, and later in person by the angel. Later he disaffected from Joseph but never denied his testimony of The Book.)
• Katharine Smith (Joseph’s sister who confirmed Joseph fasted and prayed several days after loosing 116 pages to Martin Harris.)
• Mary Whitmer (Housed and fed Joseph, Emma and Oliver under the direction of an angel who showed her the plates. She too was aware of the process.)
• **Christian Whitmer **(Eldest son of Mary, was a scribe.)
• **John Whitmer **(A younger brother with an aptitude for writing, also a scribe, later to become church historian.)
• David Whitmer (A younger brother, saw the angel and gold plates. He disaffected from Joseph but never denied his testimony of The Book.)
• Elizabeth Ann Whitmer (Youngest sister, sat and watched the process, hour after hour.)
• Hyrum (Joseph’s older brother, helped transport him, bring supplies, and oversaw the printing process.)
• Lucy (Joseph’s mother was privy to the whole process as was his father Joseph Sr.)
• Michael Morse (Emma’s brother-in-law saw the process.)
• Sarah Heller Conrad (Hired servant in the Whitmer home at the time the process was going on. Witnessed heavenly glory upon them. Details below.)

**Sarah Heller Conrad By Oliver B. Huntington **

Sunday, June 13, 1897-I conversed with one old lady eighty-eight years old who lived with David Whitmer when Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery were translating the Book of Mormon in the upper room of the house, and she, only a girl, saw them come down from [the] translating room several times when they looked so exceedingly white and strange that she inquired of Mrs. Whitmer the cause of their unusual appearance, but Mrs. Whitmer was unwilling to tell the hired girl the true cause, as it was a sacred, holy event connected with a holy, sacred work which was opposed and persecuted by nearly everyone who heard of it.

The girl felt so strangely at seeing so strange and unusual appearance, she finally told Mrs. Whitmer that she would not stay with her until she knew the cause of the strange looks of these men.

Sister Whitmer then told her what the men were doing in the room above and that the power of God was so great in the room that they could hardly endure it; at times angels were in the room in their glory, which nearly consumed them. This satisfied the girl. (Oliver B. Huntington, History of the Life of Oliver B. Huntington, p. 49-50)

Sarah became a follower and believer in TBOM and never wavered in her belief in it.

No one ever saw Joseph write or edit the manuscript. Each of these witnesses saw, wrote or participated in some fashion with the process and no one ever denied how it was done. (Dates, locations, and witnesses have been thoroughly documented in Opening the Heavens, Accounts of Divine Manifestations, 1820-1844, 2005.)

 

[Jerusha]

And the witnesses to Solomon Saplding’s having written “Manuscript Found”, and Sidney Rigdon having stolen it and spent ten years adapting it for later use by JS are as nothing, since that doesn’t fit your preconceived notions?

I don’t deny that JS further adapted it to suit his taste(, and those witnesses adapted their testomonies under social pressure).

:hypno:

 

[pnewton]

How can both the Mormon religion and the Book of Mormon NOT support each other?

Right up there with all those who believe in the Koran and reject Islam.

 

[BOMC]

And the witnesses to Solomon Saplding’s having written “Manuscript Found”, and Sidney Rigdon having stolen it and spent ten years adapting it for later use by JS are as nothing, since that doesn’t fit your preconceived notions?

Your words have no backing. Quote just one verse of preaching from TBOM that is also in Spalding’s manuscript.

It can’t be done.

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