Who Else Saw The Plates Besides Smith?

[dianaiad]

Sure, no agendas here. TBOM pattern for community and church is awesome, something we can learn from. For example, it confirms that the believers are the “church.”

You could no sooner visit a “church” then you could visit yourself.

They had separate “places of worship” which is great, not unlike when Christians gather for a Christian concert. Powerful!!!

Can you see it now, Christians in every town coming together once a month and filling the largest public stadium in town for praise, prayer, and worship.

And of course places to study the law, like synagogues or public schools, whatever. This nonsense of building elaborate structures just to hear someone preach never existed, not in TBOM or the Bible, therefore we do not condone such acts by attending them.

.

…does the specific group you associate with have a name, BOMC?

Diana (who is wondering, if the neither the bible nor the Book of Mormon ever mentions building places to hear someone preach, what all the references to Temples and synagogues were all about, or King Benjamin’s tower…{that’s a BOM reference})

 

[dianaiad]

When I began to research the various sects I was really, really surprised. Yes, of course, they are very small in numbers. I wish I could find the list I used to have. Yes, most are polygamous. Now I’m gonna have to pull out all the stops to find that information

Peace sister.

You can if you wish…
The most complete list I’ve ever found is here:

4mormon.org/mormon-splinter-groups.php

these folks are an anti-Mormon group that exists specifically to ‘aid’ and invite members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to leave the church. To that end they have an extensive list of Mormon splinter groups, but can’t seem to figure out which one is which. There is a picture of the Community of Christ Temple in Missouri on this page,that is inviting Latter-day Saints to leave the church.

…and those folks (Community of Christ) have got to be the poster child of success for anti-Mormons. They are back in the trinitarian fold (OK, they ARE more modalist than trinitarian, but hey…) complete with all the ‘welcome back to the fold’ doctrines.

Still, this is THE most complete list I’ve ever seen; somebody did their homework. I wish they had included membership numbers, though…for instance, “The Church of Jesus Christ, Art Bulla” (who shows up on alt.religion.mormon a LOT and makes our lives miserable there) has three members. He is…an interesting study in weirdness. )

Many of the groups on that list have similar sized memberships; most have a hundred or so; some have several thousand; only two have more than 10,000 members (and as far as I know, only three have that many…I could be wrong about that.)

Not that this matters: truth isn’t decided by numbers. I’m just posting this in the interest of providing the information.

(grin) Now the real question is this: are Catholics really going to use the number of sects that split away from the CoJCoLDS as proof that it isn’t ‘true?’

Really?

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

You can if you wish…
The most complete list I’ve ever found is here:

4mormon.org/mormon-splinter-groups.php

these folks are an anti-Mormon group that exists specifically to ‘aid’ and invite members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to leave the church. To that end they have an extensive list of Mormon splinter groups, but can’t seem to figure out which one is which. There is a picture of the Community of Christ Temple in Missouri on this page,that is inviting Latter-day Saints to leave the church.

…and those folks (Community of Christ) have got to be the poster child of success for anti-Mormons. They are back in the trinitarian fold (OK, they ARE more modalist than trinitarian, but hey…) complete with all the ‘welcome back to the fold’ doctrines.

Still, this is THE most complete list I’ve ever seen; somebody did their homework. I wish they had included membership numbers, though…for instance, “The Church of Jesus Christ, Art Bulla” (who shows up on alt.religion.mormon a LOT and makes our lives miserable there) has three members. He is…an interesting study in weirdness. )

Many of the groups on that list have similar sized memberships; most have a hundred or so; some have several thousand; only two have more than 10,000 members (and as far as I know, only three have that many…I could be wrong about that.)

Not that this matters: truth isn’t decided by numbers. I’m just posting this in the interest of providing the information.

(grin) Now the real question is this: are Catholics really going to use the number of sects that split away from the CoJCoLDS as proof that it isn’t ‘true?’

Really?

Thanks dianaiad.

I found that site last night and yes, they are anti-Mormon. Catholics can’t use that argument faithfully because the break away groups from them doesn’t make Christianity untrue. That’s a bad argument.

 

[dianaiad]

In the 26-volume collection of some of the early addresses of Mormon prophets known as Journal of Discourses, there is this enlightening statement,

“Some of the witnesses of the Book of Mormon, who had handled the plates and conversed with the angels of God, were afterwards left to **doubt and disbelieve that they had ever seen an angel” **(see Vol. 7., pg. 164).

So much for eyewitnesses. And that still leaves us with nobody seeing the plates.

Riko.You need to get your information from sources OTHER than “Mormon Outreach”

First: The Journal of Discourses is not scripture. We don’t use it as such. We don’t accept it as such, and if WE do not, you don’t get to pretend that it is.

Second: The Journal of Discourses is a collection of transcripts of speeches taken down by the listeners, hauled back to England and published there. The speakers were none of them able to look at, proof read or correct anything said there.In fact, we have discovered quite a few errors of transcription, etc,., in them.

Third: the Journal of Discourses, even given the above, is a valuable source book to investigate the culture, personal feelings and attitudes of the people of the time, and is particularly fun when reading what Brigham Young says. He was a fire-eater, to be certain…but is a problematic source to go to for LDS doctrine, OK?

This particular quote can’t even be taken out of context all that well: please note that two actions were mentioned here: handling the plates AND conversing with angels. The fact is, none of them EVER denied or doubted that they had handled the plates. That they had doubts about the rest of it is implicit in the fact that they left the church.

BY goes on to specifically identify the one young man who, at the time BY was speaking, was still apostate. He came back to the church later.

For future reference, you might want to understand that quoting the Journal of Discourses at a Mormon in order to tell us what our church REALLY teaches is telling him (or her) that you don’t understand us very well at all.

 

[pnewton]

Good question…two popular icons are David Whitmer and Luke Johnson, both of whom saw the plates, left Joseph, then defended TBOM the rest of the lives.

Wow. Then back to the topic, where can we see these plates?

 

[pnewton]

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

What were you expecting here? Converts to your sect?

 

[BOMC]

…does the specific group you associate with have a name, BOMC?

It’s a classification, not an affiliation.

Diana (who is wondering, if the neither the bible nor the Book of Mormon ever mentions building places to hear someone preach, what all the references to Temples and synagogues were all about, or King Benjamin’s tower…{that’s a BOM reference})

Post-Jesus, check again.

.

 

[BOMC]

Wow. Then back to the topic, where can we see these plates?

Any event in history can be viewed by the Holy Spirit. Do you have the Spirit? Another thing you can do is ask God. (Since it commands us to ask Him.) And thirdly, see if the prescribed witnesses that TBOM says would testify are credible. Not hard at all.

If you are not happy with why God arranged it thus, I guess, accept the fact that precious things are always protected, else they’ll be taken for granted. Hope that helps!

.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Wow. Then back to the topic, where can we see these plates?

You can’t see them because they do not exist. They never have existed. No one has ever seen them with their eyes. It’s just a story.

It’s very neat and tidy how the Mormons construct the Holy Spirit scenario too. You can be confirmed of the truthfulness of the whole business if you ask humbly with an earnest desire to know the truth. If you don’t get confirmation, then there’s some defect with you, it’s not that the entire story is a fabrication.

 

[BOMC]

You can’t see them because they do not exist. They never have existed. No one has ever seen them with their eyes. It’s just a story.

It’s very neat and tidy how the Mormons construct the Holy Spirit scenario too. You can be confirmed of the truthfulness of the whole business if you ask humbly with an earnest desire to know the truth. If you don’t get confirmation, then there’s some defect with you, it’s not that the entire story is a fabrication.

Why don’t you share the unique way that you *feel *God, *hear *God, or *experience *any of the *gifts *of the Spirit.

.

 

[RebeccaJ]

P.S.S. It is about praising God, nothing else.

Indeed. And we are called to acts of charity, one of which is instruct the ignorant.

“Be still and know that I am God.”
Lord, Your words lead us to the
calmness and greatness of your presence.

Lord, You created me to live in freedom
May Your Holy Spirit guide me to follow You freely.
Instill in my heart a desire
To know and love you more each day.

Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end.

Amen

 

[MelanieAnne]

Indeed. And we are called to acts of charity, one of which is instruct the ignorant.

“Be still and know that I am God.”
Lord, Your words lead us to the
calmness and greatness of your presence.

Lord, You created me to live in freedom
May Your Holy Spirit guide me to follow You freely.
Instill in my heart a desire
To know and love you more each day.

Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end.

Amen

 

[RebeccaJ]

Why don’t you share the unique way that you *feel *God, *hear *God, or *experience *any of the *gifts *of the Spirit.

.

BOMC, the Mormon thing of bearing a testimony, is, a mormon thing. There are a few protestant groups who indulge in similar. but Catholics?

We understand that all of us have experiences of God, with God and for God. Sometimes, I share those experiences, and other times, they are very private and I share them with no one.

One that I do share is that of Faith, as, I lived many years without it. People who have never lived without Faith, I sometimes think they take it for granted. I don’t. I know quite well that Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit. If ever I have times of doubt, or are struggling, all I have to do is remember this Faith that God gave me. The miracle of its existence, at all.

Some people say, Faith is something that you have, like it exists on its own. They tell me to have Faith in things, like your Bom or Joseph Smith.

I trust God. I pray to Him, to keep me with Him, as I know I am prone to wandering. And I don’t want to wander.

God led me to where I am. When people ask me to have Faith in something that is somewhere else, I believe they are trying to get me to wander away from where God led me. And I have no desire to leave. I am here, where God keeps me safe, and Mary holds me in her arms.

Jesus presence in the world was for the world. Not for a city, or a region, or a continent. It was for the world. For me to believe that He made a special stop in the Americas, is rather absurd. Unbelievable really. Not even necessary, as everything He did for the world He did once, for all.

If you start going down this idea that Jesus made a special stop in the Americas, well, why didn’t make a special stop in London? Or Moscow? Or Johannesburg? Did He intend to leave these people and places out of Salvation?

He didn’t need to visit any of these places, including the Americas. The message of the Cross is a message for the world, including the Americas. Jesus gave to the Apostles the job of spreading the Good News. And they gave this job to their successors, and to the Church. Which, has been spreading the Good News for centuries. Including, to the Americas.

While you may believe the BoM has value, and perhaps it does. It is not scripture. And as a use for taking people away from Catholicism, it is something to be viewed very warily, at best.

 

[pnewton]

You can’t see them because they do not exist. They never have existed. No one has ever seen them with their eyes. It’s just a story.

It’s very neat and tidy how the Mormons construct the Holy Spirit scenario too. You can be confirmed of the truthfulness of the whole business if you ask humbly with an earnest desire to know the truth. If you don’t get confirmation, then there’s some defect with you, it’s not that the entire story is a fabrication.

That would seem much more logical than the pat Mormon answer. They built in a perfect catch 22. Such must be the case. Their evidence will always be founded upon funny feelings and labeled as the Holy Spirit.

For anyone who has ever considered looking into the book of Mormon or any other such sect, if you seek funny feelings, stick your finger in an electrical outlet. You will get all you want.

 

[jim1130]

You can’t see them because they do not exist. They never have existed. No one has ever seen them with their eyes. It’s just a story.

It’s very neat and tidy how the Mormons construct the Holy Spirit scenario too. You can be confirmed of the truthfulness of the whole business if you ask humbly with an earnest desire to know the truth. If you don’t get confirmation, then there’s some defect with you, it’s not that the entire story is a fabrication.

I know there has been a reference to praise God, but for the Catholic, God is not an “eternal spirit housed in a tangible body of flesh and bones.” God always was. God has no beginning. God has no end. Nothing and no one existed before God. There is but one God.

Christ is the Begotten Son of God. He was not the “first spirit born to our heavenly parents (see D&C 93:21)” and the brother of Satan. Christ is the Word made Flesh.

The Holy Spirit proceeded from the Father and Son. He is not a member of the Godhead who has the form and likeness of a man (see D&C 130:22) and can be in only one place at a time, but his influence can be everywhere at the same time.

For us, the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. The Trinity.

For the LDS, the Godhead, is comprised of 3 distinct individuals: “Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are called the Godhead. They are unified in purpose. Each has an important assignment in the plan of salvation. Our Heavenly Father is our Father and ruler. Jesus Christ is our Savior. The Holy Ghost is the revealer and testifier of all truth.” (lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-12,00.html)

To praise with a Mormon in their belief would be sinful because their belief is not our belief.

 

[MelanieAnne]

I know there has been a reference to praise God, but for the Catholic, God is not an “eternal spirit housed in a tangible body of flesh and bones.” God always was. God has no beginning. God has no end. Nothing and no one existed before God. There is but one God.

Christ is the Begotten Son of God. He was not the “first spirit born to our heavenly parents (see D&C 93:21)” and the brother of Satan. Christ is the Word made Flesh.

The Holy Spirit proceeded from the Father and Son. He is not a member of the Godhead who has the form and likeness of a man (see D&C 130:22) and can be in only one place at a time, but his influence can be everywhere at the same time.

For us, the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. The Trinity.

For the LDS, the Godhead, is comprised of 3 distinct individuals: “Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are called the Godhead. They are unified in purpose. Each has an important assignment in the plan of salvation. Our Heavenly Father is our Father and ruler. Jesus Christ is our Savior. The Holy Ghost is the revealer and testifier of all truth.” (lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-12,00.html)

To praise with a Mormon in their belief would be sinful because their belief is not our belief.

There are those who would contend that the angelic source of the Golden Plates was, in fact, satanic. There are scriptural references to support this interpretation. I do not believe that it is necessary to indulge in such extreme rhetoric as suggesting satanic sources, but I agree with you that I would not be comfortable praying to the same God or, as they like to call Him, “Heavenly Father”. (Those who are not as familiar with Mormon theology as I am may be surprised to learn there is a “Heavenly Mother” too.)

I cannot pray, or praise, the Mormon Heavenly Father/God because I’m not sure who He is. As you correctly point out, He purportedly has a body of “flesh and bone” (notice, there is no blood involved, so I’m not sure how it all works.) In contrast, our God is spirit, He has no body. So the Mormon God and our God are not the same God. (Of course the Mormons may come along and say He IS the same God and we’ve just got it wrong because we’re “apostate” but since there was no “great apostasy” that explanation doesn’t work.)

Our Holy Spirit and the Mormon Holy Spirit also cannot be the same because the Mormon Holy Spirit confirms to Mormons and prospective Mormons, sometimes via a “burning in the breast”, the “truthfulness” of Mormonism.

But our God is not a God of chaos and confusion, and our Holy Spirit would not confirm one message to one person or group and a totally opposite message to another person or group. So the Mormon Holy Spirit is obviously a different Holy Spirit than the one we are familiar with.

When in a group situation where Mormons are leading a prayer, I say my own prayer, silently. There is no need to make a scene, but I do not pray WITH them. I simply pray at the same time.

 

[RebeccaJ]

That would seem much more logical than the pat Mormon answer. They built in a perfect catch 22. Such must be the case. Their evidence will always be founded upon funny feelings and labeled as the Holy Spirit.

For anyone who has ever considered looking into the book of Mormon or any other such sect, if you seek funny feelings, stick your finger in an electrical outlet. You will get all you want.

It’s a double bind. Like your mother telling you, “you must love me”. Love is spontaneous and cannot be enforced. Mormonism is full of double binds. Have faith, but if you don’t then pray for it, but you need faith in order for you prayer to be heard.

As to feelings, it is more serious than portrayed around these parts. Mormonism essentially co-opts your feelings, defining their meaning for you. If you are joyful and peaceful, God is with you. You see it coming from Mormons here, now and then.

Mormons are conditioned to never say a bad word about Mormonism, and especially its leaders. You can site all the facts in the world about the authenticity (or lack thereof) of the BoM, but it is very uncomfortable for a devout LDS to think along these terms. Facts that are against the BoM are viewed as badmouthing. Non faith-promoting. Therefore, not of God. Feelings of uneasiness are an indication that the Holy Spirit is telling you its wrong.

For those that do venture in the world of facts, Mormon apologists have provided “answers”. Which, usually go in circles, and have no logic to them whatsoever. But if it calms the feelings of uneasiness? phew! Everything is ok.

 

[BartBurk]

It’s a double bind. Like your mother telling you, “you must love me”. Love is spontaneous and cannot be enforced. Mormonism is full of double binds. Have faith, but if you don’t then pray for it, but you need faith in order for you prayer to be heard.

As to feelings, it is more serious than portrayed around these parts. Mormonism essentially co-opts your feelings, defining their meaning for you. If you are joyful and peaceful, God is with you. You see it coming from Mormons here, now and then.

Mormons are conditioned to never say a bad word about Mormonism, and especially its leaders. You can site all the facts in the world about the authenticity (or lack thereof) of the BoM, but it is very uncomfortable for a devout LDS to think along these terms. Facts that are against the BoM are viewed as badmouthing. Non faith-promoting. Therefore, not of God. Feelings of uneasiness are an indication that the Holy Spirit is telling you its wrong.

For those that do venture in the world of facts, Mormon apologists have provided “answers”. Which, usually go in circles, and have no logic to them whatsoever. But if it calms the feelings of uneasiness? phew! Everything is ok.

What is the difference between Mormonism and Catholicism in this regard?

 

[RebeccaJ]

What is the difference between Mormonism and Catholicism in this regard?

I like Mother Teresa as an example. The dark night of her soul. When this book came out, there were those who were quick to jump around all excited, especially atheists, see, Mother Teresa was faking it!

From Mormon POV, a dark night of the soul indicates that something is seriously wrong in your spiritual life. God has left you, and you had better figure out what it is that you did, or haven’t done.

From a Catholic POV, God is still there, as He always is. Watching over you, keeping you with Him. What you feel doesn’t change this fact.

Catholics believe Faith is a grace of God. A gift, of the Holy Spirit. Mormons put Faith outside of God’s grace. It is more like, if you believe it, it will come.

Mother Teresa had faith, but it wasn’t of the sort, if I believe it, it will come. She is an example of how Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit. In the darkest of nights, it is Faith, the Holy Spirit, God, who keeps you near to Him.

 

[ricko]

Christ had no need to appear anywhere else in the world as He charged his Apostles thus: “Full authority has been given to me both in heaven and on earth; go, therefore and make disciples of all the nations. Baptize them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Teach them to carry out everything I have commanded you. And know that I am with you always, until the end of the world!”. Matt 28:18.
They were commanded to go to all the nations of the Earth to teach and baptize. He didn’t say , “Oh, by the way, all nations except America, I’ll take care of that”.