Who Else Saw The Plates Besides Smith?

[Bill_Pick]

the thread is about the plates, the questions got expanded, ie I asked why no archelogical evidence of the past civilisations etc actually you have to go back through all of them to be able to understand how it got there.

sorry i can now see what you are talking, i also see how they like to dance and not answer a question

 

[BOMC]

Ever defend the Bible? It has more “holes” than The Book of Mormon, and I have gone the rounds with Bible critics squashing every excuse until it became clear that they served the God of* Reason*.

Those who serve the God of Reason, are like the Pharisees of old whose “fortresses of reason” were defended at all cost. Thus, they were:

Ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.*

God cannot be found through reason and logic, neither can His work be discerned by that method. Unless you can testify that the voice of God told you The Book of Mormon was not of Him, no amount of reason will sway those who know that it is.

---

*2 Timothy 3:7

 

[BOMC]

See the following for an example of how the rational mind hates The Book of Mormon, there are too many unknowns:

“The most perfect book ever written” is the claim by JS. This statement (according to LDS teaching) must be true as the golden plates were taken up by an angel. The interpertation was done by a seer stone that JS put in a hat and then covered his face with the hat. The seer stone would then glow or shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God and not by any power of man. So no error can possibly be in the BOM according to the above, yet there is error and here is a listing of some:

In studying the Book of Mormon, one soon finds numerous historical, geographical, and scientific errors. First, in Mormon 9:32 the Book of Mormon claims to have been written in Reformed Egyptian, but Egyptologists say this language does not exist. Second, in Alma 7:10, Jerusalem is called a land or country when it is a city. In Alma 46:15 the saved in America take on the name Christian in 73 B.C. In the Bible, believers are not called Christian until 50 A.D. in Acts 11:3. Nephi 17:7 teaches that leprosy occurred in America in 34 A.D. but no cases of leprosy here are known until 1758. Mormon 9:2 and other references teach that the Indians had official records, scrolls, and other writings, but historical research shows no such records were kept. (Mormon 5:23, 3 Nephi 9:18, 12:18)
Not only are there historical errors, but there are false teachings as well. Alma 24:16 teaches that burying swords deep in the earth will keep them bright. Basic science proves that burying steel objects causes decay and rust. 2 Nephi 13:24 teaches that baldness is caused by sin. Other absurdities include the teaching that God curses Indians with dark skin and anyone who marries an Indian will be cursed (2 Nephi 5:21 Jacob 3:3-9, Mormon 5:15-17, Alma 3:6-10). However, when Indians accept the Mormon teaching, they will become white and delightsome. (2 Nephi 30:5-7)
There appear to be internal contradictions also. In 3 Nephi 9:18, Jesus allegedly preached to the Nephites who fled Jerusalem in 600 B.C. with concepts communicated in the Greek language. But the Nephites are said to have written and spoken in Reformed Egyptian. Therefore, they would have no knowledge of Greek since Alexander, who lived in the 4th century, had not Hellenized the world yet. Jesus preaching to the non-Greek Nephites declaring, “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” would have not made any sense. Moreover, Joseph Smith and the Mormons claim the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated had no Greek or Latin in them.{26} However, Alpha and Omega are Greek, not Egyptian terms. Even stranger is that the French word “adieu” is used as a farewell in Jacob 7:27. Probe

Yet as I have shown in previous posts, no amount of answers will satisfy the demands of the rational mind. Sorry, but you were asked to pray about it. Try that instead, it works as many have already testified that it will.

After you receive your answer, I will be happy to answer those questions, or you can read them for yourself at www.bomchristian.com .

 

[ricko]

Well BOMC you’re wrong again.

God cannot be found through reason and logic, neither can His work be discerned by that method. Unless you can testify that the voice of God told you The Book of Mormon was not of Him, no amount of reason will sway those who know that it is.

Faith is only one part of the equation, to get the correct result you have to use the rest of the equation. Your reason and logic that you are so against. You fail to realize that reason and logic are gifts of the Holy Spirit and it’s ok to use them. In fact if we use faith alone we can have a serious problem. Consider what the Mormons tell a poor soul. If you read the BOM with faith you will believe in it. Now the poor fellow’s problem is if he doesn’t believe then he is told the problem is he does not have enough faith. So now he is lead to believe there is something wrong with him? Also there have been other religions/churches that have basically done the same thing, telling people that they needed faith to believe in their church/message. So by manipulating their minds you end up with groups like the Waco people who believed that David K. was Jesus returning to Earth or Heavens Gate, or the Jim Jones group. All these people had faith, faith that ended up killing them all. That’s why it is dangerous to rely on faith alone. If you think the BOM is true, why bother to tell them they must have faith to believe it? Just hand them the book and tell them to decide for themselves. But no, you must play the mind game first. Sad that yall must resort to mind manipulation to get converts.
You have not given any answers by the way. Every time we post a question you and Diana always say “Well you can’t prove the Red Sea parted either” So, I’ve posted lots of questions but have never received an answer, how about it?

 

[ricko]

This is one of my posts to a person who was thinking of becoming a Catholic:

Of course there is only one Catholic Church. It’s teachings are universal. What you have posted are opinions of some of its members or non members which may or may not be true. Only and I say again, only the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth. The other Christian churches have some of the truths from one degree to another. Only one Church was established by Jesus and only one Church is promised the Holy Spirit to teach the true word of God. The only correct statement in your post was the one from the CCC. Catholics are willing to explain the truths of the Catholic Church to you and others **but one thing we will not do is try to influence your decision, that is something you must do of your own free will. **__________________
RICK

Notice there is no intimidation or manipulation, just a personal decision by free will.

no amount of reason will sway those who know that it is.

I forgot to reply to that. You should not be afraid to use reason as it is a gift of God. And we already know that believers of the BOM don’t use reason, it’s pretty obvious. Anything that is true will stand the test of reason tempered with faith.

 

[BOMC]

So the truth comes out. Somewhere in your life you were accused of lacking faith. That’s your issue, don’t bring in this thread.

Notice, I never said suspend your logic, but rather, don’t let it act as master.

 

[pnewton]

Ever defend the Bible? It has more “holes” than The Book of Mormon,

That not only is a matter of opinion, colored by your mormonism, it is also not an answer. It is a dodge; the equvalent of playground,“Oh, yeah? Well you are too!”

 

[dianaiad]

thats a good question the people you are talking about are not con men their are men of God big big big diff. but thank you for the post

…really?

And just how do you know that Moses and Joshua were ‘men of God’ and not con men, Bill?

 

[dianaiad]

Vietnam - first missionaries arrived the beginning of the 16th century. They weren’t very successful until the Jesuits arrived in the 17th century.

And there were no trade routes to that area before? Sorry, but there were, as there were to China and Indonesia. If there were trade routes, Christians were on them. If the Christians weren’t good examples for their religion, it doesn’t mean that the religion wasn’t there.

 

[RebeccaJ]

And there were no trade routes to that area before? Sorry, but there were, as there were to China and Indonesia. If there were trade routes, Christians were on them. If the Christians weren’t good examples for their religion, it doesn’t mean that the religion wasn’t there.

China was closed to all the world for a 1000 years.

Please provide historical proof for your claim.

 

[michaelcollins]

So the truth comes out. Somewhere in your life you were accused of lacking faith. That’s your issue, don’t bring in this thread.

Notice, I never said suspend your logic, but rather, don’t let it act as master.

Myf aith was severely tested following a life saving event, I needed to find faith through more logical rational explanations of events such as the resurrection- the catholic church provides the best analytical reasoning of why the event is a historical fact to be found.

The church has produced many great philosophers and logistics theorists, they used logic and reasoning to prove points. The church recognizes not everyone can just dig up faith they need to look at things from a rational viewpoint.

I have a problem in that anyone can start a religion, say if you have faith you will see the truth of what I say, if no faith you wont see. what makes christianity different? the belief christ was the son of god who was born died for our sins and is the only man truly raised from the dead, he performed miracles we could not duplicate. now within your denomination you want me others to believe Jesus wants us toi believe TBOM but we cant do the same historical accuracy testing we can on the bible, you want this book to serve as the same level as the bible and the teachings of the catholic church but no one can provide me the same basis for belief that I can find in the church.

 

[BOMC]

I never used the word faith. This is what I said:

“God cannot be found through reason and logic, neither can His work be discerned by that method. Unless you can testify that the voice of God told you The Book of Mormon was not of Him, no amount of reason will sway those who know that it is.”

 

[michaelcollins]

I never used the word faith. This is what I said:

“God cannot be found through reason and logic, neither can His work be discerned by that method. Unless you can testify that the voice of God told you The Book of Mormon was not of Him, no amount of reason will sway those who know that it is.”

Yes, I did, i stated I lost my faith and found it throught he reason and logic that was provided by the catholic churcha nd catholic scholars such as ck chesterton tolkien etc

 

[BOMC]

Myf aith was severely tested following a life saving event, I needed to find faith through more logical rational explanations of events such as the resurrection- the catholic church provides the best analytical reasoning of why the event is a historical fact to be found.

Not hardly. It has not a shred of indisputable evidence that Jesus rose from the dead, whereas God planned long ago to provide a Second Witness to the Bible and the resurrection of Jesus Christ - the Holy Book of Mormon.

(And btw, I am not associated with any church.)

The church has produced many great philosophers and logistics theorists, they used logic and reasoning to prove points. The church recognizes not everyone can just dig up faith they need to look at things from a rational viewpoint.

Hey, after you receive a witness of the Bible you are free to do with it as you want. Receiving a witness does not guarantee an infallibility of it.

I have a problem in that anyone can start a religion, say if you have faith you will see the truth of what I say, if no faith you wont see. what makes christianity different?

Flesh and blood make Christians different. You can be born a Jew, but you must be born-again to become a Christian. The born-again experience is NOT of flesh and blood, i.e through reason, BUT THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT:

**“Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 16:17)
**

you want me others to believe Jesus wants us toi believe TBOM but we cant do the same historical accuracy testing…

How can we know the mind of God regarding a matter except by asking Him? Try prayer, it ALWAYS works!

 

[michaelcollins]

sorry BOMC I follow none of your answers other than if you believe you understand and if you dont have faith you dont believe I understand that one been there.

Sorry but if you go the the catholic churches website it has articles on the resurrection where it provides logic, reasoning and facts to back it up.

I believe because I have faith, I have faith because oif what I was able to believe.

 

[ricko]

“God cannot be found through reason and logic, neither can His work be discerned by that method. Unless you can testify that the voice of God told you The Book of Mormon was not of Him, no amount of reason will sway those who know that it is.”

I can certainly testify that God told me that the BOM was not of HIM.

in Alma 7:10, Jerusalem is called a land or country when it is a city. In Alma 46:15 the saved in America take on the name Christian in 73 B.C. In the Bible, believers are not called Christian until 50 A.D. in Acts 11:3. Nephi 17:7 teaches that leprosy occurred in America in 34 A.D. but no cases of leprosy here are known until 1758. Mormon 9:2 and other references teach that the Indians had official records, scrolls, and other writings, but historical research shows no such records were kept. (Mormon 5:23, 3 Nephi 9:18, 12:18)

Even stranger is that the French word “adieu” is used as a farewell in Jacob 7:27.

Joseph Smith screwed up and used “adieu” without thinking. Using the word Christian in 73 B.C.?

 

[BOMC]

sorry BOMC I follow none of your answers… I believe because…

Will you discount how the founder of your church received his witness that Jesus was the Christ?

 

[michaelcollins]

Will you discount how the founder of your church received his witness that Jesus was the Christ?

Sorry again I’m not following you on Peter? There are many reasons thsat could be used?

 

[BOMC]

I can certainly testify that God told me that the BOM was not of HIM.in Alma 7:10, Jerusalem is called a land or country when it is a city…why, why, why

Still serving the God of Reason I see. He’s relentless isn’t he, but your spirit knows there’s truth in The Book of Mormon, thus, here you are, a very unsettled soul.

 

[BOMC]

Sorry again I’m not following you on Peter? There are many reasons thsat could be used?

Jesus is the ONLY way, and you can only know he is THE CHRIST by the Holy Spirit. Sad, the Catholics never teach about this.