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sterryfamily
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It is the office which succeeds, not the person
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Eddy
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Yes, but as I understand it, the early Church demanded agreement on the essentials, but allowed a great deal of variation on smaller issues ‘fly below the radar’ - so, for example, issues of the order of communion, or questions of what happened to those who’d denied their faith. I guess they were much less willing to shout ‘heretic’ than we are today. Someone like Marcion, for example, was tolerated for quite a while, until his ‘two gods’ theory became a step too far. When the early creeds were written, that seemed to be the essentials. My difficulty now is that the faithful are expected, not to take something like the Apostles Creed and say ‘this is my faith, these are my essentials’, but that they are expected to take a document with thousands of points, not to mention how many encyclicals and statements, and say ‘I accept all of it’.
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sterryfamily
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I think you will find that in actuality, the Church today allows much more wiggle room than you think. There are many local traditions and customs that are not only allowed, but encouraged. Inculturation has always been favored. Look at the Sacred Litrugy vs. The Mass. Married preists in the east, etc., just for starters.
There are many devotions the Church allows, without making them compulsory, like Marian appartions, etc.
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Eddy
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You’ve no idea how much I’d like to believe you! I would like to go back to the Catholic church - drawn by the Eucharist and monastic spirituality. But there simply isn’t enough wiggle room for the likes of me who keep thinking up troublesome questions
I guess I can be accused of arrogance and pride (as I’ve been accused elsewhere on the board), but it’s more a matter of needing to say I believe only what I truely believe…
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sterryfamily
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The real questions are, "Did Christ really come to establish His kingdom in Heaven and on earth (The Church)? Did He really promise His eternal protection to that Church (power to bind and loose; I will send my Spirit to guide you into all truth; lo, I am with you to the end of time)? Does He want us all in His covenant family? Did He leave us with earthly shepherds to guide us in the new covenant as He did in all the old covenants?
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sterryfamily
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Dude, we’re all right there with you. There are many things in the Church which are hard to understand and hard to do. We all have to decide whether Christ left an authority or did he leave us adrift?You’ve no idea how much I’d like to believe you! I would like to go back to the Catholic church - drawn by the Eucharist and monastic spirituality. But there simply isn’t enough wiggle room for the likes of me who keep thinking up troublesome questions
You’ve heard the old saying that Catholicism is the hardest religion to be, but the safest
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sterryfamily
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Just don’t ever stop asking the questions.
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Blue_Serenity
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Interesting questions. I’ll answer them how my church teaches them and how I believe them:1.) Did Christ really come to establish His kingdom in Heaven and on earth (The Church)? no, not in the sense that Catholics believe. He came here on earth to show us how to live for God and establish unity among humanity (invisible church).
2.) Did He really promise His eternal protection to that Church? no, not the physical church as Catholics speak. He promised His eternal protection to Christianity, as a whole, who live their lives the way He instructed us to.
3.) Does He want us all in His covenant family? YES!!!
4.) Did He leave us with earthly shepherds to guide us in the new covenant as He did in all the old covenants? yes, He told the apostles to go forth and make disciples of all nations. The apostles then passed their knowledge on to bishops, who in turn passed it on to priests and ministers and pastors.
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sterryfamily
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Man, that is so dangerous. If you check the writings of the early Christians you will find you are WAY off from what the apostles taught them.
1.) Did Christ really come to establish His kingdom in Heaven and on earth (The Church)? no, not in the sense that Catholics believe. He came here on earth to show us how to live for God and establish unity among humanity (invisible church).:
Again, you apparantly have no idea what the Church believed before she gave us the Bible.:
2.) Did He really promise His eternal protection to that Church? no, not the physical church as Catholics speak. He promised His eternal protection to Christianity, as a whole, who live their lives the way He instructed us to.
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E.E.N.S
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Blue Serenity said:
1.) Did Christ really come to establish His kingdom in Heaven and on earth (The Church)? no, not in the sense that Catholics believe. He came here on earth to show us how to live for God and establish unity among humanity (invisible church).
I think that if you read what the earliest Christians and Church Fathers believed and taught you would find yourself at opposition with them. The idea of the “invisible church” that you speak of is relatively new…not much older than the United States (if even that old, I am having a bit of a problem finding evidence that it is even that old.)
We can easily see that this view is not at all historical, but where do you get any support of this from Scripture, (as I assume you think that there may be evidence of it in there somewhere)?
Blue Serenity said:2.) Did He really promise His eternal protection to that Church? no, not the physical church as Catholics speak. He promised His eternal protection to Christianity, as a whole, who live their lives the way He instructed us to.
If He did as you say, then where is the protection? There is no real unity in doctrine between all the protestant divisions, so where does a person turn to learn the necessary truth?
Again we also have a lack of historical evidence with this thought process as well.
Blue Serenity said:3.) Does He want us all in His covenant family? YES!!!
Okay, but I think we would agree that not everyone is going to make it, right? But I digress…
Blue Serenity said:4.) Did He leave us with earthly shepherds to guide us in the new covenant as He did in all the old covenants? yes, He told the apostles to go forth and make disciples of all nations. The apostles then passed their knowledge on to bishops, who in turn passed it on to priests and ministers and pastors.
Ah ha! What did those bishops and priests teach and hand down? Historically you will easily see that there is an unbroken line of bishops in the Catholic Church, from Peter to Benedict XVI. And if you read what was taught from the very first disciples of the Apostles (i.e., Polycarp and Ignatius of Antioch - both disciples of Apostle John) up through Augustine continuing on to today that the teaching of the Catholic Faith is there, clearly, protected by the promise of Jesus Christ and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Can you show otherwise? (This is a retorical question.)
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PaulDupre
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That is correct, and is an important distinction. The Pope occupies the office, but he is not the office.
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PaulDupre
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Why can’t you do that within the Catholic Church? I know many wonderful and faithful Catholics who struggle with some doctrines. It is very Catholic to say “I believe, Lord, help my unbelief!”
BTW, what specifically do you struggle with? Perhaps we can shed some light…
God love you,
Paul
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Eddy
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Frankly, I’m not sure it’s Catholicism that’s hard - I think it’s ChristianityDude, we’re all right there with you. There are many things in the Church which are hard to understand and hard to do. We all have to decide whether Christ left an authority or did he leave us adrift?
You’ve heard the old saying that Catholicism is the hardest religion to be, but the safest
. I love Christ. And I look at the world and think ‘what a job he’s given us!’. Right down to choosing who to bank with and where to shop, Christiantiy demands hard choices…And I’m confident in my relationship with Christ. I really am. I pray. I do annual retreats. He knows I belong to him, and I know I do, and that’s the most important thing.
In terms of Christ leaving an authority. He says ‘I am the good shepherd, I know my sheep and my sheep know me’’. He also says he will dwell in us, and promises us the Holy Spirit. So no, I don’t for a second believe he leaves us adrift.
In terms of my issues with the Church, well, I guess if you look at my recent posts, it gives a fair idea. I’ve been very close to rejoining for a while. So many of my friends are working for change from the inside. I came here knowing I needed a dose of conservative Catholicism to remind me of the reasons why I felt I had to leave in the first place. I study, I debate, I work in Church circles, I read great, brilliant theologians and believe we should listen to their voices, and be open to discuss what they say, rather than simply use a ‘the Pope says no’ argument (I know I’m stereotying there, but you do encounter it sometimes!)
I guess I struggle with the idea of the Church (and I include all Christian denominations in that) acting as though God cares more about whether a woman feels called to be a priest, than about us jumping into our car or plane without thinking, while the resultant global warming kills children in a country like Bangladesh. A God who is more offended by a gay person in a monogamous gay relationship than by millions of children in near enslavement so we can buy cheap running shoes. I look at the Jesus I meet in the gospels, and I love his passion, and I love the fact that he always puts people over rules, or etiquette or the easy answer. I love that Jesus, and that’s who I signed up to follow. And it sticks in my throat that I would consider anyone else capable of perfect teaching, or that I would give my heart, to anything or anyone else.
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jmcrae
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He also told Peter to “feed my sheep.” (John 21:15-19) He knew that people would disagree about His teachings, so He put someone in charge of making sure that His teachings would be proclaimed accurately. Peter’s modern-day successor is Pope Benedict XVI.Frankly, I’m not sure it’s Catholicism that’s hard - I think it’s Christianity
And I’m confident in my relationship with Christ. I really am. I pray. I do annual retreats. He knows I belong to him, and I know I do, and that’s the most important thing.
In terms of Christ leaving an authority. He says ‘I am the good shepherd, I know my sheep and my sheep know me’’. He also says he will dwell in us, and promises us the Holy Spirit. So no, I don’t for a second believe he leaves us adrift.
And sometimes, especially when people are winding around and around in endless circles, it helps to be able to say that, instead of trying to argue someone out of a disastrous situation.
Why does it have to be either/or? God has gifted women in ways that will help those children in Bangladesh - instead of trying to be “as good as a man” we could solve both problems at the same time, instead of saying, “Oh, let her make believe to be a priest; we have this other problem to solve,” but two of your problem-solving hands are missing, because she is off pretending to be a priest, instead of using the actual talents that God really did give her.
Again a false dichotomy - it’s not either/or. How do children become vulnerable to slavery, unless it is because they don’t have a mother and father who love each other for life, and who make it their life’s mission to take care of their children?
It’s the destruction of the family and the acceptance of “alternative family structures” that puts children out on the streets to become slaves, in the first place. Those children didn’t come from nowhere - they came from families broken by divorce, adultery, and homosexuality.
Well, I should hope so. That’s what the Catholic Church is all about, too.
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ALLFORHIM
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Frankly, I’m not sure it’s Catholicism that’s hard - I think it’s Christianity
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Petergee
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Are you saying that the bishops/priests/pastors/ministers in “your church” have received their faith unchanged in a direct line from the Apostles and their successors? That would make “your church” either Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. Every protestant denomination that I know originated from people who “ordained themselves”. In fact many of them boast of the fact that they are not part of the Apostolic Succession of bishops.
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4.) Did He leave us with earthly shepherds to guide us in the new covenant as He did in all the old covenants? yes, He told the apostles to go forth and make disciples of all nations. The apostles then passed their knowledge on to bishops, who in turn passed it on to priests and ministers and pastors.
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Eddy
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This assumes a great deal. I’m just not sure the argument for papal infallibility is without gaps. Or even if it is true that Jesus sought to appoint a successor, that he was telling him ‘all your teaching will be correct’. I reckon Peter would have run a mile! Even the early church doesn’t seem to think so - it took quite a while before it was decided which Bishop was most powerful, and even when it was Rome, it was only because of the changing demographics of the Christian community.
But I think there’s a need to show that Papal authority can be based upon Christ as revealed in Scripture, and on the Spirit of Christ. I know there are certain ‘proof texts’, but there are good arguments against too.
I’ve spent a lot of time with very conservative Protestants. They had their acceptable books, and their apologetical websites, and their accepted speakers. And so they can state their apologetical arguments based on one interpretation of history and one interpretation of the Bible. Many Conservative Catholics have a similar list of ‘good’ authorities, and apologetic books which are used in a similar way. THe difficulty comes when you read both and see that BOTH contain some elements of truth - and that their are lots of theologians working outside of both camps, and recognised by neither, who also show that there are other interpretations. I’m left with the conclusion that the Holy Spirit does not feel obliged to limit himself to any of these camps and moves wherever She wants
I didn’t say it did. I said I struggled with the church ACTING as though… Conservative Christians - either Catholic or Protestant - seem to get a whole lot more angry and a whole lot more passionate about issues like Gay union, than about millions of children dying of poverty. I’m just not sure that that echos Jesus’ priorities. And btw, lots of women who DO feel called to priesthood ARE off out working in the developing world. After all, much of the best work being done in those places is being done by religous orders and lay people. The vast majority of women who feel called to priesthood are not out campaigning. THey’re serving God and trying to quietly change attitudes from the inside.
That shows a terrible lack of awareness of what goes on in a place like the Phillipines. Or even what goes on in a place like New York. They come out of homes of POVERTY. Poverty, very often caused by those who want to maximise profit. Those who make welfare payments so tight that when an unexpected bill comes in people feel forced to go to extreme measures to avoid the violence (or homelessness) that will come with not paying it. They come from homes in the Phillipines where the only option for being able to pay to finish High School involves selling yourself. They come from such an unfair distribution of global wealth that the only way some see of making ends meet is offering services to wealthy Western tourists.
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Petergee
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You’re right, he did! He ran and hid in the upper room - but from the time he received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost he boldly took up his role as visible head of the Church.
Acts of the Apostles makes it clear that Peter was in charge. We still have the record of Pope Clement’s discipline over far-away Corinth in the mid-first century. Demographics had nothing to do with it. Until the Moslem conquests of the 7th century, the great majority of Christians were in the Middle East, but they had for centuries looked to the bishop of Rome for leadership and arbitration of their internal disagreements.
Anyone can “interpret” a Bible passage to mean anything they want it to mean if they try hard enough. The more pertinent questions are: Where do non-Catholics get their assumed authority to interpret it?And where do they get the authority to declare that the Bible must be the only source of Christian doctrine? Protestants try to fudge and obfuscate in response, because they have no convincing answers to these questions. That’s the big difference between the competing claims of Catholic and Protestant interpretations. All interpretations are NOT equal.I’ve spent a lot of time with very conservative Protestants. They had their acceptable books, and their apologetical websites, and their accepted speakers. And so they can state their apologetical arguments based on one interpretation of history and one interpretation of the Bible. Many Conservative Catholics have a similar list of ‘good’ authorities, and apologetic books which are used in a similar way. THe difficulty comes when you read both and see that BOTH contain some elements of truth - and that their are lots of theologians working outside of both camps, and recognised by neither, who also show that there are other interpretations. I’m left with the conclusion that the Holy Spirit does not feel obliged to limit himself to any of these camps and moves wherever She wants
And you’ll find if you look at it objectively that the Pope and bishops spend far more time and energy preaching against the exploitation of the poor than about “gay marriage”. Yes I know the mainstream media gives the impression that the Catholic Church is basically an “anti-sex society”, but they select only the stories that sell papers. If some Catholics get angry and passionate about certain issues which don’t excite you, so what? You don’t have to be exactly like them.
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Blue_Serenity
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:nope: Not at all. They were called by God to lead his flock, just like the apostles were. They use the example of the apostles to help us on our way to Heaven. :yup:
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Blue_Serenity
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How do you know this for sure?
E.E.N.S.:
:yup: Sure it is! When Jesus said to Peter “upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell will NOT prevail against it”. Jesus was speaking of Christianity and his “invisible church”. Satan can’t break the bond of Christianity but Satan can and has influenced decisions in the church. Granted, he hasn’t triumphed but he’s definitely influenced it to some degree.
E.E.N.S.:
See my answer above to answer your first question. To answer your second question, the Bible!
Pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit and turn to the Bible for the Truth. E.E.N.S.:
:yup:
E.E.N.S.:
The bishops and priests taught us what Jesus taught them. Like the Catholics always say, not everything was written in the Bible that Jesus taught.
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