Who Has Authority?

[E.E.N.S]

Hi,
The only thing I could possibly say is that we can still choose to follow men’s beliefs. You rely on what comes from the Magesterium(I think) and it seems that many here rely heavily on the ECF’s. We can still grieve the HS ignore him,if you will.
Relying on man’s word is never a good thing. Look at all the problems there has been within the church since the begining. Paul even writes about heresies right from the get go. In the bible it tells us not to rely on man but on God. I dont know you or anything about you other then you are a devout catholic so that is really all I could say.

That doesn’t answer the question. I asked “what happens when 2 (or more) people who genuinely believe they are being led by the Holy Spirit come to opposing beliefs?”

Please address that.

(Also remember how the Bible says to handle these heresies - “take it to the Church” - why? - “because the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth.”)

 

[RNRobert]

Hi,
The only thing I could possibly say is that we can still choose to follow men’s beliefs. You rely on what comes from the Magesterium(I think) and it seems that many here rely heavily on the ECF’s. We can still grieve the HS ignore him,if you will.
Relying on man’s word is never a good thing. Look at all the problems there has been within the church since the begining. Paul even writes about heresies right from the get go. In the bible it tells us not to rely on man but on God. I dont know you or anything about you other then you are a devout catholic so that is really all I could say.

You (as well as other Protestants) seem to think that we don’t need a Magisterium, or anyone else, to tell us anything; we simply need to open up the Bible and let the Holy Spirit guide us. But your position needs two things to be valid:

1. The ability to read.
2. Access to a Bible.

Until the advent of the printing press in the 15th century, Bibles (or any books for that matter) were expensive and hard to come by. Furthermore, most people were illiterate. So, how were people in those days supposed to come to a knowledge of the Faith?
Also, the New Testament church had no New Testament. They received their knowledge of the faith through the word of mouth teaching of the Apostles. Now, if the Holy Spirit could prevent the Apostles from teaching error in the first century, is it unreasonable to believe he could protect His Church from teaching error in the twenty-first?

 

[Texan_in_DC]

Here’s my list of disagreements that happened after 800 A.D. (approximately):

Worship of the cross, images and relics was authorized

This was by order of Dowager Empress Irene of Constantinople, who first caused to pluck the eyes of her own son, Constantine VI, and then called a church council at the request of Hadrian I, pope of Rome at that time.

Such practice is called simply IDOLATRY in the Bible, and is severely condemned. (Read Ex. 20:4; 3:17; Deut. 27:15; Psalm 115). 788

Ok Pope Hadrian I or Pope Adrian I approved the second counsil of Nicea wich was held in 787, He confirmed the practice and excomunicating the iconoclasts. In short iconoclasm was the deliberate destruction within a culture of that cultures own religious icons and other symbols or monuments for both the religious and politcal arena.

Now this led to a lot of controversy at that time, and the Libri Carolini was written, to which Adrian replied by letter, cursing all who refused to venerate the images of Jesus, or the Virgin Mary, or saints.

This arguement continued to go on till his death and even after, but Pope Adrian or any other Pope in the Catholic Church has ever spoken ex cathedra on this subject and as Catholic we want to honor Jesus, Mary, and Saints that have gone before us.

Exodus 20:4

4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 **You shall not bow down to them or worship them; **for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Lets define worship: I will use the Webster Dictionary

1 chiefly British : a person of importance – used as a title for various officials (as magistrates and some mayors)
2 : reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence
3 : a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4 : extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem

Now Caholics will use #2 for God and God alone, #3 for our Mass, and Doctrine of Faith… and # 4 for honoring Mary and Saints…

Now are you telling me that Exodus 20:4-5 is refering to any extravagant respect or admiration for when we Catholics have pictures, statues, art, of Jesus, Mary, and the many great Saints of the past.

See they were referencing the awful things that the Pagons were doing, and Jesus was saying that is not the correct way, I am the Way, worship #2 to only your Father in Heaven. Do not worsip Idols things that imitate God or things in Heaven.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Yes

Hi,

I asked my minister about when the CC started to steer from the church. This is what he said.

There have been heresies since the begining of the church. Paul even speaks of them in the NT and told the churches to guard themselves from them. So it is very difficult to give an exact date because they made there way into the churches over time and from the begining of Christ’s death and resurrection. Some of the heresies stuck.

IMHO the reformation was a purging of these heresies and an attempt to weed them out.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

You (as well as other Protestants) seem to think that we don’t need a Magisterium, or anyone else, to tell us anything; we simply need to open up the Bible and let the Holy Spirit guide us. But your position needs two things to be valid:

1. The ability to read.
2. Access to a Bible.

Until the advent of the printing press in the 15th century, Bibles (or any books for that matter) were expensive and hard to come by. Furthermore, most people were illiterate. So, how were people in those days supposed to come to a knowledge of the Faith?
Also, the New Testament church had no New Testament. They received their knowledge of the faith through the word of mouth teaching of the Apostles. Now, if the Holy Spirit could prevent the Apostles from teaching error in the first century, is it unreasonable to believe he could protect His Church from teaching error in the twenty-first?

The NT church had as many false teachings as we do now. Paul was fighting against major false teachings such as the church in Galatia which was teaching legalism and he wanted to get them to understand Grace. The church of Corinth had open sexual immorality in their church. So you see there was no difference between then and now except their was only one main church in each city.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

That doesn’t answer the question. I asked “what happens when 2 (or more) people who genuinely believe they are being led by the Holy Spirit come to opposing beliefs?”

Please address that.

(Also remember how the Bible says to handle these heresies - “take it to the Church” - why? - “because the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth.”)

Hi,
Logically both cannot be right. So therefore one is wrong and we will know when Christ comes back. Then we can ask Him any question we want and He will give us the answer until then we must have friendly discussions.

 

[Texan_in_DC]

Here’s my list of disagreements that happened after 800 A.D. (approximately):
Holy Water, mixed with a pinch of salt and blessed by the priest, was authorized 850

“Bring me a new bowl, and put salt in it.” before you object these were the words from Jesus Christ.

My 1st question is why do have an issue with this if Jesus Christ does not?

The Truth is Holy water, that is, water mixed with salt and blessed by a priest, washes away venial sin by the renewal of our baptismal vows.

Why do we Catholics believe this well its the Holy Bible!

Let me Reference:

Num 5:17 and the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel, and take some of the dust that is on the floor of the tabernacle and put it into the water.

Num 8:7 And thus you shall do to them, to cleanse them: sprinkle the water of expiation upon them, and let them go with a razor over all their body, and wash their clothes and cleanse themselves.

Num 19:17 For the unclean they shall take some ashes of the burnt sin offering, and running water shall be added in a vessel…

Psalm 51:2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin!

want more biblical reference:

Tobit exorcised a demon (Tob 6:17-18, 8:2-3) using a fish, the ancient Christ symbol, strewn with salt (Tob 6:6). Sacrifice required salt:

2 Kings 2:20-22 He said,** “Bring me a new bowl, and put salt in it.” **So they brought it to him. 21 Then he went to the spring of water and threw salt in it, and said, “Thus says the Lord, I have made this water wholesome; henceforth neither death nor miscarriage shall come from it.” 22 So the water has been wholesome to this day, according to the word which Elisha spoke.

This had to mean something, right?

Well it did Jesus was using Salt to teach us something.

Holy water is inextricably linked to the Living Waters of baptism (baptismal water is NEVER salted) in part because baptismal water washes away the salt of suffering which covers the newborn. Christ, the Living Water, takes on our salt, our suffering…

Salt therefore becomes a sign of covenant which is sometimes used with Holy Water, I would have to research farther to see when we Catholics use salt in Holy Water and when we dont. I know we dont for Baptim water and I doubt the Holy water we dip our fingers while in Church going to or from Mass has salt in it either.

Pershaps another Catholic could let us know when and why it is used, I would gather it is rare today. But does has its roots in the Holy Bible throughout.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Hi,
Logically both cannot be right. So therefore one is wrong and we will know when Christ comes back. Then we can ask Him any question we want and He will give us the answer until then we must have friendly discussions.

Right, logically one of them must be wrong. So how do we find out who is interpretting correctly? What do we have as a foundation to guide us in our interpretations?

 

[jmcrae]

Hi,
Logically both cannot be right. So therefore one is wrong and we will know when Christ comes back. Then we can ask Him any question we want and He will give us the answer until then we must have friendly discussions.

Except that the one who is wrong will descend suddenly into Hell without having any face-to-face conversations with Jesus beforehand, since no lie (lack of truth) can endure His presence.

 

[RNRobert]

The NT church had as many false teachings as we do now. Paul was fighting against major false teachings such as the church in Galatia which was teaching legalism and he wanted to get them to understand Grace. The church of Corinth had open sexual immorality in their church. So you see there was no difference between then and now except their was only one main church in each city.

I agree that the NT church had as many heresies as the present day does. The question still remains: To which church should I go to for the truth?
Paul wrote in Galatians 1:8 that if he or an angel from heaven, came and preached a different gospel than what he originally preached, to let them be anathema.
Here’s the problem: I wasn’t around in Galatia the day when St. Paul preached the Gospel. When I first started reading the Bible (this was before I became Catholic) I had no knowledge of the culture that the Bible was written in, nor could I read the original languages (still can’t). I had a hard time making heads or tails of many things in it (Scripture itself says it contains things hard to understand). Now, supposing a group of people were to show up at my door claiming to be able to help me “understand” the Gospel. How can I tell whether their “Gospel” is the correct one, since they themselves back up their claims with Scripture? Would Jesus leave his sheep in the lurch like that without a shepherd?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Except that the one who is wrong will descend suddenly into Hell without having any face-to-face conversations with Jesus beforehand, since no lie (lack of truth) can endure His presence.

Hi,
Not necessarily. A person can be saved because they do believe in the salvation message , which BTW is The MOST IMPORTANT DOCTRINE:thumbsup: but differ on issues such as end times, pre-election,whether or a not a priest should be married, purgatory, Marian dcotrines. God does want us united but as humans we have failed Him but PTL He is a forgiving merciful God.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Hi,
Not necessarily. A person can be saved because they do believe in the salvation message , which BTW is The MOST IMPORTANT DOCTRINE:thumbsup: but differ on issues such as end times, pre-election,whether or a not a priest should be married, purgatory, Marian dcotrines. God does want us united but as humans we have failed Him but PTL He is a forgiving merciful God.

Amen! Indeed He is! However we must be cautious not to be presumptious (as this is a sin against the Holy Spirit). Being presumptious is a foolish confidence of salvation, without leading a good life, or any care to keep the commandments; such as they entertain who think they will be saved by faith only, without good works.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I agree that the NT church had as many heresies as the present day does. The question still remains: To which church should I go to for the truth?
Paul wrote in Galatians 1:8 that if he or an angel from heaven, came and preached a different gospel than what he originally preached, to let them be anathema.
Here’s the problem: I wasn’t around in Galatia the day when St. Paul preached the Gospel. When I first started reading the Bible (this was before I became Catholic) I had no knowledge of the culture that the Bible was written in, nor could I read the original languages (still can’t). I had a hard time making heads or tails of many things in it (Scripture itself says it contains things hard to understand). Now, supposing a group of people were to show up at my door claiming to be able to help me “understand” the Gospel. How can I tell whether their “Gospel” is the correct one, since they themselves back up their claims with Scripture? Would Jesus leave his sheep in the lurch like that without a shepherd?

Nope that is why He left us with the HS. Right before I accepted Christ I was church hopping. Do oyu know I actuall let the Mormons and JW into my house and I went to visit their churches. I knew something was way off base immediately. That was the work of God. He didnt want me there and He let me know. I ended up in a baptist church where I accepted Christ into my heart. I already had the head knowledge but now I had the heart knowledge. Eight years ago I left my baptist church because I was not growing in my walk with Christ. There were no programs for me or my children. A few people had already left my church and went to a few others in the area. The one I am at now was one I had passed everday for a year. It took me 2 years before I went to visit. Saturday Dec. 6th I thought I should go visit that church tom. Well, at that moment I felt a literal push on my back that I believe was God telling me to go. It was a supernatural event that I have not experienced since. But anyway, I went the next day and 3 months later I became a member, joined a bible study and now run a ministry within the church. It was a whirlwind like I had never experienced before. I know without a doubt that was God showing me this is where He wants me to be. So when you say which church should I be in, well God showed me where He wanted me too be. Follow God:thumbsup:

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Amen! Indeed He is! However we must be cautious not to be presumptious (as this is a sin against the Holy Spirit). Being presumptious is a foolish confidence of salvation, without leading a good life, or any care to keep the commandments; such as they entertain who think they will be saved by faith only, without good works.

Yes, I follow the commandments to the best of my ability and I try to lead a life worthy of God every day:thumbsup: I dont presume anything. I trust what God has put forth in His Word. You should read Romans a very powerful book indeed:thumbsup:

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Right, logically one of them must be wrong. So how do we find out who is interpretting correctly? What do we have as a foundation to guide us in our interpretations?

I know we are going in circles here but the bible tells us it is the HS. I dont know what else to say. Sorry that is all I got

 

[Texan_in_DC]

Here’s my list of disagreements that happened after 800 A.D. (approximately):

Every believer and follower of Christ is called saint in the Bible. (Read Rom. 1:7; I Col. 1:2). 995

The Mass was developed gradually as a sacrifice; attendance made obligatory in the 11th century.

The Bible teaches that the sacrifice of Christ was offered once and for all, and is not to be repeated, but only commemorated in the Lord’s Supper. (Read Heb. 7:27; 9:26-28; 10:10-14).

Romans 1: 6-7

6And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.

7To all in Rome who are loved by God and **called to be saints:
** Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor : verse 2
2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:

Now Blue notice that we are not called Saints but called to be Saints. The book of Romans Paul writes letters to not Christians but Pagon Rome, so their he is talking to people who do not believe, which he writes that even you pagons are called to be with God, each of us are called to be saints.

And in 1 Cor verse 2

Paul writting to the Church of God at Corinth letting them know who already believe and are Christians that they too are called to be Saints, God wants all of us to be Saints.

Only those in heaven are Saints, and for us that are a live today we are called to join them in heaven too with God. Both believers and non believers.

27Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

This refering to Jesus Christ not the other high priests and I agree to the scripture you refer to here

The Catholic Mass that you object to is all Bible and all Jesus

please refer here:

davidmacd.com/catholic/catholic_mass_bible_references_full_text.htm

 

[E.E.N.S]

I know we are going in circles here but the bible tells us it is the HS. I dont know what else to say. Sorry that is all I got

So the Bible says that the foundation of truth is the Holy Spirit? I was under the impression that 1 Tim 3:15 says that the CHURCH is the pillar and foundation of truth.

(By the way, Romans is one of my favorite books. )

 

[RNRobert]

So the Bible says that the foundation of truth is the Holy Spirit? I was under the impression that 1 Tim 3:15 says that the CHURCH is the pillar and foundation of truth.

Exactly! Of course, the question still remains: Which church?

 

[MariaG]

Hi,

I asked my minister about when the CC started to steer from the church. This is what he said.

There have been heresies since the begining of the church. Paul even speaks of them in the NT and told the churches to guard themselves from them. So it is very difficult to give an exact date because they made there way into the churches over time and from the begining of Christ’s death and resurrection. Some of the heresies stuck.

IMHO the reformation was a purging of these heresies and an attempt to weed them out.

So in other words, you are trusting the words of a man instead of Scripture. Also an effective way to discount the words of the ECF since you can believe that God allowed the Church, the pillar and foundation of truth, to teach lies and not just the believers in the Church to have false ideas. Where in scripture does it show us that the Church was teaching falsely and not the believers misunderstanding?

IMHO the reformation was the biggest rebellion contradicting scripture that exhorted Christians to be “one”. Contradicting Scripture by saying that the Church, the pillar and foundation of truth is full of lies. Contradicting scripture that the church that has been here all along is the one that has “come along” and is teaching false doctrine rather than the men that have come along and done so.

But obviously you are comfortable believing these things even though your beliefs that the church could fall into error is contrary to scripture Or is there a place in scripture that shows us the teachers whom were entrusted with the gospel were teaching error rather than the followers who fell into error?

 

[MariaG]

Exactly! Of course, the question still remains: Which church?

And once a person studies history the only question that should remain is Catholic or Orthodox, so the question is really quite narrow