Who Has Authority?

[Petergee]

Hi,
Honestly, when I was looking for a church that would teach me the truth as I believed it to be I visited and I asked for their doctrine of faith. If it matched the bible(as I understand the bible)that is where I went. I understand people have opposing views. The thing of it is all side think they are right so, what I do is go back to the bible. If one side tells me something that simply is not in the bible I x them off my list(for that doctrine) and so on. If I am told something that is in the bible but questionable–I study it and pray and the HS has not let me down.

How do you **KNOW **he hasn’t? When other protestants are equally adamant that the Holy Spirit has led them to interpret the Bible in ways which directly contradict your interpretation?

As far as baptism, the bible is silent on the baby issue however, when baptism is mentioned it also mentions that one must believe and repent. So from a logical standpoint I would say an infant cant do that so I would believe a believers baptism which can be a child–age depends on how much a child knows. Some kids get it at 5. My son is 8 and only begining to get it. There is nothing in the bible about a parents intention(Iforget what catholics call it ).

You know what I’m going to say don’t you? Look in your Bible and you will see it has quite a bit to say about the importance of parents having the right intention of bringing up their children in the faith.

I have studied baptism and I have come to the conclusion that baby baptism does not save someone. The Scriptures just dont teach that.

Don’t you feel just a little conceited to say that YOUR personal study of the Bible and YOUR personal contact with the Holy Spirit has shown you that YOUR opinion on this matter is correct and that the contradictory practice of 95% of all the Christians who have ever lived, and of 100% of Christians for the first 1550 years of Christian history, is wrong?

Ultimately, I think the answer is always go back to the bible. Also, people are going to venture to a side they grew up with and they feel comfortable with until the HS moves them. It really does take studying the bible and discerning for yourself. If you truly have the HS then God will lead you to where He wants you to be and it may be a baptist church, catholic,methodist etc. Keep in mind that if a person does not have the HS in them they are unable to intrepret the Scriptures clearly.

Are you seriously suggesting that the same Holy Spirit, the “Spirit of Truth who will guide you into all truth”, simultaneously leads some to convert from methodism to Catholicism and leads others to convert from Catholicism to Methodism, others from Methodism to Baptist church, etc.etc?

 

[Petergee]

**Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcrae View Post
You say they need to read their Bible, but I know people who read the Bible in the original Greek and Hebrew, who have gone to every kind of Bible school, and taken every kind of Theology classes, who say that the Bible never actually condemns (or even mentions) born-as-homosexuals from marrying each other (though it does condemn sodomy and homosexual-type acts in heterosexuals) and that abortion, birth control, and even child exposure (killing a newborn child by leaving her outside, exposed to the elements) is never directly condemned anywhere in the Scriptures.

These Bible scholars also claim to have the Holy Spirit, and they claim that the Holy Spirit is telling them that we are now in a more mature Age of Man when we can indulge our sexual appetites without condemnation from God, because we have women’s liberation now, and we have learned how to respect one another. They say that these ancient ideas of “sexual sin” have never really been condemned by the Bible itself, and that the Holy Spirit is guiding us into a new era of freedom from repressive sexual taboos.

An outsider looking in (say, a non-Christian), not knowing anything about Christian tradition, what should he think? Are you right (three years of reading the Bible by yourself) or them? (16 years of Theology and Bible classes, plus an additional 30 years of preaching and pastoral care/marriage counselling.) After all, both are claiming to have the Holy Spirit, both are saying “Bible alone; no human traditions” and both seem to be completely sincere in their beliefs.**
I would say it doesnt matter how long you have read or studied the bible or gone to seminary or become a priest or bishop or anything else. If you do not have the HS in you you cannot and will not intrepret Scripture correctly.

As far as your last paragraph goes—that is why it is important for christians who do have the HS in them to produce the fruit of the spirit so non-christians can tell we are different and that we have something they want. There is SOOO much corruption out there everywhere that truly does inhibit people from finding God I can only do my part and that is to show people the fruit of the spirit(Galations 5:22) and only hope people will notice I am different from the way the world thinks.

Most of the non-Christians I know say that the “something they want” is exactly the type of Christian doctrine which jmcrae mentioned: “abortion, contraception, same-sex “marriage” etc. are all OK”. I hardly think that we can determine which Christian sect has the truth by asking non-Christians what they want.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

You know what I’m going to say don’t you? Look in your Bible and you will see it has quite a bit to say about the importance of parents having the right intention of bringing up their children in the faith.

When it comes to the HS I would never suggest anything. I do not know how the HS works in other people’s lives, only my own.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Most of the non-Christians I know say that the “something they want” is exactly the type of Christian doctrine which jmcrae mentioned: “abortion, contraception, same-sex “marriage” etc. are all OK”. I hardly think that we can determine which Christian sect has the truth by asking non-Christians what they want.

The point was they are missing something in their lives. If we(as christians)are ever going to help them come to know Christ then when cannot be hypocrites. We need to practice what we preach(which would be showing fruit of spirit Gal 5:22)

 

[jmcrae]

Hi,
Well like I have said before, there were false teachings going on while the Apostles were still teaching, so it doesnt surprise me that in less then 200 years infant baptism started.

It started a lot sooner than that, actually - Jesus was blessing infants even during His own lifetime, saying “do not hinder them.” (Mark 10:13-16)

St. Paul tells us that Christian baptism takes the place of circumcision, which in Jewish tradition took place on the eighth day of life.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

St. Paul tells us that Christian baptism takes the place of circumcision, which in Jewish tradition took place on the eighth day of life.

Hi, Im not sure which Scripture you are talking about. Could you give me the one you are referring to so I can check it out.

 

[Petergee]

Sorry I guess it does sound like Im a little conceited. Let me just say it is right for ME. Everyone has their own faith journey…When it comes to the HS I would never suggest anything. I do not know how the HS works in other people’s lives, only my own.

So like so many others, when challenged why you believe what you do, your ultimate fallback position is moral and religious relativism. “It’s right for ME” but something totally contradictory is “right” for others. Logically impossible. Truth is truth for all. There is one Truth, one Way. Either you are wrong or the Catholics are wrong. We cannot both be “right”.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

So like so many others, when challenged why you believe what you do, your ultimate fallback position is moral and religious relativism. “It’s right for ME” but something totally contradictory is “right” for others. Logically impossible. Truth is truth for all. There is one Truth, one Way. Either you are wrong or the Catholics are wrong. We cannot both be “right”.

Hi,

Sorry you feel that way. I am speaking spiritually. My relationship is between me and Christ as is everyone else’s. The truth is Jesus is the way the truth and the life. My truth starts in John 3. The only way to the Father is through Jesus. That is my truth and Im sure it is yours too. I have the truth as well.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Sorry to take so long to get back to this, but one of my kids had to work on a science project, so the computer was tied up.

Hi,

Honestly, when I was looking for a church that would teach me the truth as I believed it to be

This, right here, is the major problem. Are we supposed to choose a church based on what **we **believe the truth to be or what **God **believes it to be?

I visited and I asked for their doctrine of faith. If it matched the bible(as I understand the bible)

How do you know your interpretation was correct? Above, you seem unaware of scripture verses that Baptism replaces circumcision. Are you well enough acquainted with the Bible to see if their doctrine matches the Bible?

And does God really expect all of us to be well enough acqainted with the Bible to do that? Especially people of centuries past that had no access to the Bible except in their church?

AFH, it should be obvious that a system of “reading scripture and praying to the Holy Spirit for guidance” is no absolute guarantee of finding the truth. If it were, all sincere Christians would be united regarding doctrine. Instead, we see Protestantism splintered into thousands of differing denominations. That fact by itself should tell you it takes more than that.

What we need is an infallible authority to tell us which interpretation of scripture is the correct one. Did Jesus give us such a thing? Yes, He did. That’s why I pointed out Matthew 18. Jesus said, “Take it to the Church.” The Church has to be an authority if it is to chastise someone for sinning. (It would, after all, have to recognize what is a sin and what isn’t in order to do that.) And what Church was Jesus referring to? The original one perhaps? The one He promised would not be overcome by the Gates of Hell?

 

[Spirithound]

Hi,Honestly, when I was looking for a church that would teach me the truth as I believed it to be I visited and I asked for their doctrine of faith. If it matched the bible(as I understand the bible)that is where I went. I understand people have opposing views. The thing of it is all side think they are right so, what I do is go back to the bible. If one side tells me something that simply is not in the bible I x them off my list(for that doctrine) and so on. If I am told something that is in the bible but questionable–I study it and pray and the HS has not let me down.

Hi,Sorry you feel that way. I am speaking spiritually. My relationship is between me and Christ as is everyone else’s. The truth is Jesus is the way the truth and the life. My truth starts in John 3. The only way to the Father is through Jesus. That is my truth and Im sure it is yours too. I have the truth as well.

AFH, YOUR relationship is between you and the Lord, but we’re trying to get you to look at OTHER people’s relationships also. You said in the first post i’ve quoted that when you’re shopping for a church, you go over their doctrine, and if it doesn’t mesh with (your interpretation of) the Bible, you X it off your list. Guess what? you have just labelled them heretics. If you believe that they are so wrong that you would not even worship with them, are you not saying that the Holy Spirit is not guiding them? Or are you saying that the Holy Spirit is guiding them in error? Or, are you going to take the relativist POV, as suggested by a PP, and say that the Holy Spirit guides everyone to a different, mutually exclusive, and equally valid truth?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Are you well enough acquainted with the Bible to see if their doctrine matches the Bible?

So far yes:thumbsup:

And does God really expect all of us to be well enough acqainted with the Bible to do that? Especially people of centuries past that had no access to the Bible except in their church?

Probably not because we are human and cant possibly know all that is in the bible ever. But He does expect us to search and study Scriptures so when we here false prophecy we will know.

AFH, it should be obvious that a system of “reading scripture and praying to the Holy Spirit for guidance” is no absolute guarantee of finding the truth.

Well I think it is absolute if we listen to what God is trying to tell us. But we still have our sin nature and constantly struggle between our sin nature and the HS.

If it were, all sincere Christians would be united regarding doctrine. Instead, we see Protestantism splintered into thousands of differing denominations. That fact by itself should tell you it takes more than that.

Well if the CC was the infallible authority we wouldnt have all splintered away in the first place—right? That is a weak argument

What we need is an infallible authority to tell us which interpretation of scripture is the correct one.

There is no where in the bible that tells us we need an infallible authority other then the HS.

Did Jesus give us such a thing? Yes, He did.

The HS:thumbsup: and the Scriptures

That’s why I pointed out Matthew 18. Jesus said, “Take it to the Church.” The Church has to be an authority if it is to chastise someone for sinning

.Yes but those are local churches not one based in Rome.

(It would, after all, have to recognize what is a sin and what isn’t in order to do that.)

The Mosaic law already has done that for us and the NT .

And what Church was Jesus referring to? The original one perhaps? The one He promised would not be overcome by the Gates of Hell?/

QUOTE]Exactly the body of believers who belong to all different churches all over the world. These local churches,if they base their teachings on Christ and the Apostles, are all NT churches.

 

[FCEGM]

Well if the CC was the infallible authority we wouldnt have all splintered away in the first place—right? That is a weak argument

God had absolute and infallible authority over Adam and Eve and yet. . . . Now in and through His One, Holy, Catholic and Apostlic Church He is calling all to come home. Some heed His Word Whose Church it is, others don’t.

 

[Spirithound]

[QWell if the CC was the infallible authority we wouldnt have all splintered away in the first place—right? That is a weak argument
[/QUOTE]

yelp of surprise how does that work??? Didn’t the Israelites turn away MULTIPLE times from GOD HIMSELF??? Didn’t Adam and Eve eat the (non-specific) fruit of the Tree of knowledge, in DIRECT opposition to GOD HIMSELF?? The fact that Luther was a prideful, scrupulous man who couldn’t bring himself to submit to the greater collective knowledge and research that the Church had built up over 1500 years (unfortunately, i can’t capitalize numbers), does not, i repeat, DOES NOT negate the fact that the Church can and does teach infallibly.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

[QWell if the CC was the infallible authority we wouldnt have all splintered away in the first place—right? That is a weak argument

yelp of surprise how does that work??? Didn’t the Israelites turn away MULTIPLE times from GOD HIMSELF??? Didn’t Adam and Eve eat the (non-specific) fruit of the Tree of knowledge, in DIRECT opposition to GOD HIMSELF?? The fact that Luther was a prideful, scrupulous man who couldn’t bring himself to submit to the greater collective knowledge and research that the Church had built up over 1500 years (unfortunately, i can’t capitalize numbers), does not, i repeat, DOES NOT negate the fact that the Church can and does teach infallibly.
[/quote]

Hi,
The only people who taught infallibly were the 40 men who wrote the Scriptures and Christ/God. All other sources are written and intrepreted by fallible people. There is nothing wrong with reading what they wrote but it doesnt automatically make it right. If what they write goes along with Scripture then fine if not I just cant except it as truth.

 

[john_ennis]

*Hi,
The only people who taught infallibly were the 40 men who wrote the Scriptures and Christ/God. All other sources are written and intrepreted by fallible people. .

You hope that whoever came up with this was infallible as well.

Peace.
John

 

[FCEGM]

The only people who taught infallibly were the 40 men who wrote the Scriptures and Christ/God. All other sources are written and intrepreted by fallible people. There is nothing wrong with reading what they wrote but it doesnt automatically make it right. If what they write goes along with Scripture then fine if not I just cant except it as truth.

So in essence you are the final arbiter of what is or isn’t scriptural. Thus you have only yourself to whom to be obedient, unmindful of “Obey those who have the rule over you and submit yourself, for they watch for your souls …” (Heb 13:17).

Oh, you may temporarily submit to the leaders of whatever congregation you have joined, but when you personally disagree with one or more of their teachings, you are free to leave it and find another sect to join without any question (in your mind or theirs) of your Christian orthodoxy. In other words, you have no objective standard of authority that is outside of your personal, subjective intepretation of Scripture or understanding of what (to your mind) Christianity teaches. Rather, you are your own final authority, and owe obedience to no one/nothing outside yourself - you alone have your own key to a door that may or may not lead you to Christ and His Truth. That’s the best you can expect, not the fullness of the Faith that Christ offers to us in and through His Church which is the extension of His Incarnation in time and place.

 

[FCEGM]

You hope that whoever came up with this was infallible as well.

Peace.
John

That’s it in a nutshell, John.

 

[Spirithound]

Well if the CC was the infallible authority we wouldnt have all splintered away in the first place—right? That is a weak argument

Spirithound:yelp of surprise how does that work??? Didn’t the Israelites turn away MULTIPLE times from GOD HIMSELF??? Didn’t Adam and Eve eat the (non-specific) fruit of the Tree of knowledge, in DIRECT opposition to GOD HIMSELF?? The fact that Luther was a prideful, scrupulous man who couldn’t bring himself to submit to the greater collective knowledge and research that the Church had built up over 1500 years (unfortunately, i can’t capitalize numbers), does not, i repeat, DOES NOT negate the fact that the Church can and does teach infallibly.

AFH:
Hi,
The only people who taught infallibly were the 40 men who wrote the Scriptures and Christ/God. All other sources are written and intrepreted by fallible people. There is nothing wrong with reading what they wrote but it doesnt automatically make it right. If what they write goes along with Scripture then fine if not I just cant except it as truth.

You haven’t offered any proof here. You initally said that the Church was not infallible, therefore the reformers broke away. I pointed out the falsity of that assumption by showing how OT personalities rejected God directly. You then came back and just reasserted that the Church is not infallible. I agree that a person’s commentary on the Bible is not automatically correct, unless that person’s teaching satisfies the requirements of papal infallibility.
So, you have said that “all other sources are written and interpreted by fallible people.” Are you one of those fallible ones? If so, you are abdicating your claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit. In fact, you are saying that NO ONE is guided by the Holy Spirit. If you are not one of those fallible sources, then you must be infallible, and we should all listen to you.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

You hope that whoever came up with this was infallible as well.

Peace.
John

Yes and that is where faith comes in:thumbsup:

 

[ALLFORHIM]

So in essence you are the final arbiter of what is or isn’t scriptural. Thus you have only yourself to whom to be obedient, unmindful of “Obey those who have the rule over you and submit yourself, for they watch for your souls …” (Heb 13:17).

Oh, you may temporarily submit to the leaders of whatever congregation you have joined, but when you personally disagree with one or more of their teachings, you are free to leave it and find another sect to join without any question (in your mind or theirs) of your Christian orthodoxy. In other words, you have no objective standard of authority that is outside of your personal, subjective intepretation of Scripture or understanding of what (to your mind) Christianity teaches. Rather, you are your own final authority, and owe obedience to no one/nothing outside yourself - you alone have your own key to a door that may or may not lead you to Christ and His Truth. That’s the best you can expect, not the fullness of the Faith that Christ offers to us in and through His Church which is the extension of His Incarnation in time and place.

Hi,

I have actually never left a church because of doctrinal differences. But if I do disagree with what they are teaching I should go to the leaders and sit down and discuss why I believe what I do and vice versa and then we take it to the bible and which ever one of us is proven wrong by the Scriptures must then submit to what the Word of God says. That is how it should work, sadly you are right though people just leave,just like it is way to easy to get a divorce.