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ALLFORHIM
Guest
Hi, I am sorry to but into your conversation but I thought the comment I quoted above was interesting. Catholics say that Protestant do what you say above but if you are honest with youself/selves you would realize you do the same exact thing.
Ok carry on Im done interfereing.
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Kay_Cee
Guest
I too would like to commend Blue Serenity’s openness.
I would also like to add that she has always been polite and has shown a zeal and willingness to learn that many Catholics would do well to emulate.
I would also like to add that she has always been polite and has shown a zeal and willingness to learn that many Catholics would do well to emulate.
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exoflare
Guest
That’s the whole point of this thread… open interpretation is fine to a point, but when it comes to the essentials whose interpretation can you be sure of in the end?Hi, I am sorry to but into your conversation but I thought the comment I quoted above was interesting. Catholics say that Protestant do what you say above but if you are honest with youself/selves you would realize you do the same exact thing.
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ALLFORHIM
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Jn3:5
Ther is only one verse that we could possibly relate to this subject.
2 Samuel 12:23 Other then that we dont know what happens to them. We have to trust that God is merciful with babies, unborn and born.
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ALLFORHIM
Guest
That is not what the bible says. Although this topic is off the topic at hand.
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exoflare
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Agreed.Ther is only one verse that we could possibly relate to this subject.
2 Samuel 12:23 Other then that we dont know what happens to them. We have to trust that God is merciful with babies, unborn and born.
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artist3189
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Let the discussion begin, what is you view in relation to the Sacraments to ‘spiritual and Biblical "TRUTH’? Where does the Church say it is 'limited to it’s walls"? The Church is threefold, Militant, Suffering and Triumphant. It’s Grace, Gods Grace, is not limited to ‘it’s walls’, but as the Church clearly states, flows freely upon the earth. The Church is a conduit of Graces. More AVENUES of Grace exists through the Catholic Church than anywhere else in this world, or beyond this world. The Church does not know to what extent this Grace is received by others, and makes no claims to understand this, but it remains in our best interest to be in ‘accord’ with the fullness of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, his Sacraments, the Repository of the Faith, and the promise given by Christ through his Apostles and their successors. The Church did not go underground, or die out, or exist in a dormant state until Martin Luther decided to re-invent the wheel. The Church was dynamic and although some sinful men tried their best to bring it down, it endured because God raised up Holy Men and Women to renew and guide it during the Centuries and Centuries. Is this all just a great coincidence that 2000 years later we are still having the same discussion? If God wished the Church, the Catholic Church to be destroyed completely, who would stand against it? The Evil One wishes this, and has tried and tried, through wars, schisms, Apostate religions, ambitious and corrupt men and clergy, offers of greed, spiritual confusion, and yet, here we are. What institution could withstand that type of sinful earthy onslaught and still remain in tact? 2000 years worth, not just one mans generation but 30, 40…You can’t see the obvious or refuse to see it, because to see it is to accept something that goes against what YOU wish, rather than what GOD wishes. This really isn’t an argument as much as a way to express how a devoted Catholic understands the role and Authority of the Church. No one can be ‘forced’ to believe this, but this conclusion is hard to avoid without dismissing much of the Scripture and Church history.
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ALLFORHIM
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Spirithound
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So…have ye an answer to the question?Spirithound;1882025:
Hi,
Thank you for explaining it better.
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MariaG
Guest
Well at least we agree on that.Ther is only one verse that we could possibly relate to this subject.
2 Samuel 12:23 Other then that we dont know what happens to them. We have to trust that God is merciful with babies, unborn and born.
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MariaG
Guest
ALLFORHIM,So how does this fit into your set of beliefs in choosing to believe that children cannot be baptized? Yes, I quoted myself
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Blue_Serenity
Guest
Thanks sterryfamily and Kay Cee.
If you don’t mind me asking, what is fundamentalism? (a brief definition would work so as not to derail the thread)
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jmcrae
Guest
“Fundamentalism” describes a rather loose movement of low-church Protestants (“low” meaning that they have no sacraments and no liturgy) who believe that there are seven fundamental beliefs that must be adhered to by all Christians, and that everyone who adheres to these seven, regardless of what else they believe, and where (or even whether) they attend Church, is “saved.”Thanks sterryfamily and Kay Cee.
If you don’t mind me asking, what is fundamentalism? (a brief definition would work so as not to derail the thread)
Disagreement with any of the seven fundamentals results in one not being “saved,” again, regardless of other beliefs, and regardless of church attendance.
The seven precepts are: the world was created in six literal 24-hour days, the Scriptures are to be understood as being literally true, it contains nothing poetic or metaphorical; all Christian doctrine is derived from the Bible alone; the virgin birth of Christ; the doctrine of Christ’s substitutionary atonement; the bodily resurrection of Jesus; and the imminent return of Jesus Christ.
That the list is somewhat arbitrary (there is nothing in Scripture to indicate that it is intended to be taken literally, and indeed, there are some parts that are quite obviously poetic and metaphorical) and obviously man-made (this list appears nowhere in Scripture, nor does Scripture itself elevate any one teaching above any other) does not appear to bother them at all. The Fundamentalist movement started in the late 1800s as a reaction to Darwinism in particular, and to Modernism in general.
PS: Some other notable characteristics of Fundamentalists are that they practice “believer’s baptism,” (they don’t baptize infants, although they might “dedicate” them) they tend to frown on “secular entertainments” such as movies, fictional books, dancing, and live performance theatre, and if they practice Holy Communion at all, it is viewed as being purely symbolic. They also believe in a literal “priesthood of all believers,” and although they pay lip-service to the idea that men alone should lead the assembly, in practice, (and especially at home and in small groups) women also take very strong leadership roles.
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sterryfamily
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Start here:Thanks sterryfamily and Kay Cee.
If you don’t mind me asking, what is fundamentalism? (a brief definition would work so as not to derail the thread)
catholic.com/library/fundamentalism.asp
Then get Keeting’s book.
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Kay_Cee
Guest
I very much appreciate you trying to keep up with it all!Hi,
I dont know if I answered you or not. I cant keep up with all the questions thrown at me.
Okay, I think you proved my point. You state, “I do not know all of the Bible because I have only been studying it for 3 years.” But, AFH, you must then admit you’re checking your church’s doctrines against your *limited *knowledge. What if there’s scripture you don’t know about that contradicts what your church teaches? You might say,“Well, if I see that, I’d join a different church.” But what about in the meantime? In the meantime, you’d be believing a false doctrine.
You’re right that each of us can’t know it all. And surely Jesus knew we wouldn’t have time to know it all. That is precisely a reason why we need more than the Bible alone to guide us. We need, in other words, another authority!
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sterryfamily
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John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot reenter his mother’s womb and be born again, can he?” Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
Acts 2:38
Peter (said) to them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit. For the promise is made to you and to your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call.”
Acts 22:16
Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptized and your sins washed away, calling upon his name.’
Romans 6:1
What then shall we say? Shall we persist in sin that grace may abound? Of course not! How can we who died to sin yet live in it? Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life.
1 Corinthians 6:9
Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. That is what some of you used to be; but now you have had yourselves washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
1 Corinthians 12:13
For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink of one Spirit.
Galatians 3:26
For through faith you are all children of God in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
Ephesians 5:25
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word,
Colossians 2:11
In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not administered by hand, by stripping off the carnal body, with the circumcision of Christ. You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
Titus 3:5
not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the **bath of rebirth **and renewal by the holy Spirit,
1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit. In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. This prefigured baptism, which saves you now.
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Petergee
Guest
But you say that your and my beliefs are BOTH the Truth. So how can it be that the Truth that you have disagrees with some parts of the Truth that I have? Can’t you see this is impossible?
I take it you mean that ironically, but yes it IS a very big deal. Loving God IS more important than loving your neighbour. The former leads to the latter. We should love our neighbour because he is made by God’s love in the image of God, not for his own sake alone. There are too many people, some Christians included, who make “Love thy neighbour” #1, leading all too easily to people “loving” their neighbour by, e.g. helping her get an abortion, or fornicating with him.
Indeed, but “different gifts and talents” doesn’t explain how and why two people facing the same question of religious belief or moral behaviour can come up with two contradictory answers although both claim that their actions are based on conscientiously trying to love God and their neighbour.
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Petergee
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Certainly. That’s exactly the point of this thread: **WHO HAS AUTHORITY **to tell anyone what is the “right” interpretation???
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AlegreFe
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See, this is a huge part of the problem. If it matches what YOU think is the bible.
No scripture should be left up to YOUR OWN interpretation. There is no way that you can be sure with absolute certainty that it is the Holy Spirit that is telling you what the Scriptures mean, NO WAY.
Don’t you see that Jesus left HIS Church with an Authority to teach Scripture. Only Mary, the Apostles, and other disciples were in that upper room when the Holy Spirit came down. That is when the Church was born, HIS Catholic Church.
Yes we have the Holy Spirit too. But we are only a Temple of the Holy Spirit when we are in a State of Grace. Can you be certain that you are in a State of Grace right now? Absolutely certain, without any doubt whatsoever? You don’t sin? You never lie? You’re not concerned with your looks? You’re not worried about tomorrow? You trust Jesus fully and completely so that you won’t have to worry or think about tomorrow? You don’t get angry at all at anyone?
If you do any of those things, do you repent and then spend time in prayer to be with Jesus? Do you repent out of pure love for God and not so much out of fear of His punishment, Hell? Are you positive that you don’t repent even the least bit out of fear of Hell? You have full and complete Love for God, meaning you put God first and foremost every moment of every day of your life? Do you think of God first thing when you get up in the morning and last thing when you go to bed at night?
If you are not Catholic, then that is the only way that I could imagine that you could be in a state of grace. If you were Catholic then you could pray to the Holy Spirit so He can reveal your sins to you, then you could go to Confession and confess all your sins and even say in Confession that you beg for mercy even for the sins you cannot remember. Then after that you would go to Holy Communion to receive Jesus in the most intimate way anyone can receive Jesus, and have it not just be that you “accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior.” Then, and ONLY then, would you be in a state of grace if you were Catholic. If it’s that way as a Catholic when we have access to all the Sacraments, which impart Sanctifying Grace to us, then how much harder would it be for a Protestant to remain in a state of grace when you have no Sacraments at all? I mean REAL Sacraments that are not just symbolic.
Again, you’re talking about your own understanding about the bible.
I will pray for you. I will ask God to give you the gift of Faith. I will ask Him to remove the scales from your eyes. I will ask Him to send down His Graces through Mary so that you can see with the eyes of Faith, because we should be walking by faith and not by sight.
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