Who Has the Final Authority?

[JonNC]

Oh, I know!

2 Tim 3:16

[16] “All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice, …”

…oh wait that says profitable, not sufficient…nevermind.

Psalm 119:105 Thy word is a lamp to my feet, and a light to my paths.

Jon

 

[E.E.N.S]

Psalm 119:105 Thy word is a lamp to my feet, and a light to my paths.

Jon

Indeed, and I agree, but still doesn’t say that Scripture is sufficient, (but I know that you know that as well.)

BTW, Jon, I appreciate the respectful manner in which you post. (And I hope my last post didn’t come across as too sarcastic, I was just been a bit playful really.)

 

[JonNC]

Indeed, and I agree, but still doesn’t say that Scripture is sufficient, (but I know that you know that as well.)

BTW, Jon, I appreciate the respectful manner in which you post. (And I hope my last post didn’t come across as too sarcastic, I was just been a bit playful really.)

No, not sarcastic. I was a bit surprised that you didn’t point out that it says “a” lamp instead of “the” lamp.

Jon

 

[E.E.N.S]

No, not sarcastic. I was a bit surprised that you didn’t point out that it says “a” lamp instead of “the” lamp.

Jon

 

[Zooey]

Just curious: If a doctrine or practice is to be believed, from a sola scriptura standpoint, it must be found somewhere within the pages of the holy bible. Where does the bible tell us that the bible is sufficient?

I’m not sola scriptura, so I wouldn’t know.
My statement was based on the fact that the Bible is the entire written word of God; unlike our friends in the LDS, et al, I don’t believe it is possible that somebody somewhere is going to come up with (say) “St. Wombat’s Epistle To The Upstate New Yorkers”. The canon closed with the death of St John the Evangelist.
Therefore, it follows that everything that God intended for us in His written words is in His written word, the Bible (providing you aren’t using one of those Reader’s Digest Condensed Versions), & since God clearly considered it sufficient for us, I will:thumbsup: trust Him that it is sufficient for me. (This doesn’t mean that it doesn’t require interpretation!).

 

[JonNC]

I’m not sola scriptura, so I wouldn’t know.
My statement was based on the fact that the Bible is the entire written word of God; unlike our friends in the LDS, et al, I don’t believe it is possible that somebody somewhere is going to come up with (say) “St. Wombat’s Epistle To The Upstate New Yorkers”. The canon closed with the death of St John the Evangelist.
Therefore, it follows that everything that God intended for us in His written words is in His written word, the Bible (providing you aren’t using one of those Reader’s Digest Condensed Versions), & since God clearly considered it sufficient for us, I will:thumbsup: trust Him that it is sufficient for me. (This doesn’t mean that it doesn’t require interpretation!).

Nor does it mean that we stridently reject anything or everything else written, like the creeds, simply becuse they are not in scripture.

Jon

 

[Ginger2]

Your interpretation is faulty.

Where does Jesus teach: If it is NOT written in the Bible,do not believe it.

Chapter and verse please…

I did not make that claim.

I said “I am not bound [by pain of death] to believe it.”

 

[joe370]

I’m not sola scriptura, so I wouldn’t know.
…since God clearly considered it sufficient for us

Hey Zooey…

If God clearly considers scripture alone sufficient then God must have said so somewhere in scripture. Where does God say that scripture alone sufficient?

 

[joe370]

Nor does it mean that we stridently reject anything or everything else written, like the creeds, simply becuse they are not in scripture.

Jon

Try telling that to my sister. LOL… For her and many other scripture alone advocates, if it’s not found here :bible1: then it’s not from God.

 

[JonNC]

Hey Zooey…

If God clearly considers scripture alone sufficient then God must have said so somewhere in scripture. Where does God say that scripture alone sufficient?

Psalm 119:105 Thy word is a lamp to my feet, and a light to my paths.

Joe, perhaps the question in return is, what more than scripture do we need? Sure, the Church inteprets scripture and sets doctrine, but I’ve been told Tradition does not contradict scripture. In the end, the essentials of salvation through Jesus Christ are recorded in scripture. No?

Jon

 

[Zooey]

Nor does it mean that we stridently reject anything or everything else written, like the creeds, simply becuse they are not in scripture.

Jon

What Jon said:

Hey Zooey…

If God clearly considers scripture alone sufficient then God must have said so somewhere in scripture. Where does God say that scripture alone sufficient?

No, God clearly believes that Scripture is sufficient because He led the church from the beginning to declare the canon of Scripture closed as of the death of St. John.
If God wanted us to have more Scripture, the canon would not have been closed. It would have been put upon the hearts & souls of the believers THEN, to keep the canon open until “further notice” from on high.

Joe, you keep thinking that sola scriptura arguments will work on me & Jon, & we are NOT sola acriptura, ergo= no cigar.

 

[Ginger2]

Indeed, and I agree, but still doesn’t say that Scripture is sufficient,

Hmmm, are you suggesting God created a less than perfect book?

 

[Zooey]

Try telling that to my sister. LOL… For her and many other scripture alone advocates, if it’s not found here :bible1: then it’s not from God.

Yeah, your sister probably would think that Jon & I are dreadful. I have a lot of friends & family like that, too. It’s tough, isn’t it?

 

[Zooey]

Hmmm, are you suggesting God created a less than perfect book?

Nope, that** your** paradigm for understanding the Scriptures is faulty.

 

[joe370]

What Jon said:

No, God clearly believes that Scripture is sufficient because He led the church from the beginning to declare the canon of Scripture closed as of the death of St. John.
If God wanted us to have more Scripture, the canon would not have been closed. It would have been put upon the hearts & souls of the believers THEN, to keep the canon open until “further notice” from on high.

Joe, you keep thinking that sola scriptura arguments will work on me & Jon, & we are NOT sola acriptura, ergo= no cigar.

You do not embrace the practice of sola scriptura?My bad…

 

[JonNC]

Yeah, your sister probably would think that Jon & I are dreadful. I have a lot of friends & family like that, too. It’s tough, isn’t it?

Yeah, it is curious, as they are Lutheran. Here is what the Formula of Concord says:

1. We believe, teach, and confess that the sole rule and standard according to which all dogmas together with [all] teachers should be estimated and judged are the prophetic and apostolic Scriptures of the Old and of the New Testament alone, as it is written Ps. 119:105: Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. And St. Paul: Though an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you, let him be accursed, Gal. 1:8.

2] Other writings, however, of ancient or modern teachers, whatever name they bear, must not be regarded as equal to the Holy Scriptures, but all of them together be subjected to them, and should not be received otherwise or further than as witnesses, [which are to show] in what manner after the time of the apostles, and at what places, this [pure] doctrine of the prophets and apostles was preserved.

3] 2. And because directly after the times of the apostles, and even while they were still living, false teachers and heretics arose, and symbols, i. e., brief, succinct [categorical] confessions, were composed against them in the early Church, which were regarded as the unanimous, universal Christian faith and confession of the orthodox and true Church, namely, **the Apostles’ Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Athanasian Creed, we pledge ourselves to them, and hereby reject all heresies and dogmas which, contrary to them, have been introduced into the Church of God. **

“We pledge ourselves to these.” No where a rejection of Tradition, but only a holding of it accountable to scripture. This is true sola scriptura.

Jon

 

[Ginger2]

Nope, that** your** paradigm for understanding the Scriptures is faulty.

Why is it Catholics think they have the ability to read other people’s minds

Since you assume to know my “paradigm”… why don’t you tell me what you think I believe and we’ll see how close you get.

 

[joe370]

Yeah, it is curious, as they are Lutheran. Here is what the Formula of Concord says:

“We pledge ourselves to these.” No where a rejection of Tradition, but only a holding of it accountable to scripture. This is true sola scriptura.

Jon

Actually my sister is “non-denominational” whatever that means, and her daughter is Lutheran.

 

[Ginger2]

I love to use Catholic sources when dialogging with Catholics, so:

’Not all that the Lord did was written down, but only what was deemed sufficient, either from the point of view of morals, or from the point of view of dogmas.’ Cyril of Alexandria (died A.D. 444) (Comm. John 12).

’eing most properly assured that the Scriptures are indeed perfect, since they were spoken by the Word of God and His Spirit.’ Irenaeus (ca. A.D. 140-ca. A.D. 202) (Against Heresies 2,28:2).

’[T]he tokens of truth are more exact as drawn from Scripture, than from other sources.’ Athanasius, the great Patriarch of Alexandria (Nicene Definition 32).

’If it is nowhere written, then let it fear the woe which impends on all who add or to take away from the written word.’ Tertullian of Carthage (Against Hermogenes 22)

 

[Ginger2]

I love to use Catholic sources when dialogging with Catholics, so:

’Not all that the Lord did was written down, but only what was deemed sufficient, either from the point of view of morals, or from the point of view of dogmas.’ Cyril of Alexandria (died A.D. 444) (Comm. John 12).

’eing most properly assured that the Scriptures are indeed perfect, since they were spoken by the Word of God and His Spirit.’ Irenaeus (ca. A.D. 140-ca. A.D. 202) (Against Heresies 2,28:2).

’[T]he tokens of truth are more exact as drawn from Scripture, than from other sources.’ Athanasius, the great Patriarch of Alexandria (Nicene Definition 32).

’If it is nowhere written, then let it fear the woe which impends on all who add or to take away from the written word.’ Tertullian of Carthage (Against Hermogenes 22)