Who has the possibility of salvation?

[Genesis315]

Everyone has the possibility of salvation. Just because they don’t acknowledge the Trinity right now, doesn’t mean they never will.

You are right that we believe that without faith in Jesus it is impossible to please God:

CCC:

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation.42 "Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’"43

However, we also believe that “in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him” (CCC 848).

It is by living with an upright conscience that we participate in grace and are ultimately brought to the grace of faith. In response to Protestants that claimed the existence of those without faith was proof God didn’t offer the possibility of salvation to all, St. Robert Bellarmine replied:

De Gratis et Libero Arbitrio, lib. 2, cap. 8

This argument only proves that not all people receive the help they need to believe and be converted immediately. It does not, however, prove that some people are deprived, absolutely speaking, of sufficient help for salvation. For the pagans to whom the Gospel has not yet been preached, can know from His creatures that God exists; then they can be stimulated by God, through His preventing grace, to believe in God, that He exists and that He is the rewarder of those who seek Him: and from such faith, they can be inspired, under the guidance and help of God, to pray and give alms and in this way obtain from God a still greater light of faith, which God will communicate to them, either by Himself or through angels or through men.

The Pope taught the same thing in Lumen Fidei:

Because faith is a way, it also has to do with the lives of those men and women who, though not believers, nonetheless desire to believe and continue to seek. To the extent that they are sincerely open to love and set out with whatever light they can find, they are already, even without knowing it, on the path leading to faith. They strive to act as if God existed, at times because they realize how important he is for finding a sure compass for our life in common or because they experience a desire for light amid darkness, but also because in perceiving life’s grandeur and beauty they intuit that the presence of God would make it all the more beautiful. Saint Irenaeus of Lyons tells how Abraham, before hearing God’s voice, had already sought him “in the ardent desire of his heart” and “went throughout the whole world, asking himself where God was to be found”, until “God had pity on him who, all alone, had sought him in silence”.[32] Any-one who sets off on the path of doing good to others is already drawing near to God, is already sustained by his help, for it is characteristic of the divine light to brighten our eyes whenever we walk towards the fullness of love.

 

[Luke-Suncook]

I have never believed in the trinity. It’s one of the most bogus and divisive doctrines that has ever entered the church and very easily refuted. It has evil origins and wish people would stop playing God with the issue and stop with the condemning attitude over it.

I almost completely lost my faith, burned a host of books and bibles, and took down my website over it because I was tired of being continually condemned by my own brothers and sisters over a doctrine Trinitarians admit is inexplicable and incomprehensible. Yet, they tell people they’re damned if they don’t believe in it.

How foolish and judge-mental.

 

[Vico]

… they tell people they’re damned if they don’t believe in it.

How foolish and judge-mental.

Those that die in a state of mortal sin are damned. It is more complex matter to determine culpability. A person that knows what the Catholic Church teaches on matters of faith and morals and willfully does not assent to it, through some mistaken idea of autonomy, and after reflection, is at risk of damnation, if dying in that state without repenting and seeking absolution.

 

[Luke-Suncook]

How foolish and judge-mental.

Those that die in a state of mortal sin are damned. It is more complex matter to determine culpability. A person that knows what the Catholic Church teaches on matters of faith and morals and willfully does not assent to it, through some mistaken idea of autonomy, and after reflection, is at risk of damnation, if dying in that state without repenting and seeking absolution.

I don’t believe a word you said. AND…the Catholic church cannot condemn anybody. AND…there’s absolutely NO Trinitarian formula in the bible, AND it’s an evil man made doctrine.

 

[fredystairs]

Trinitarian formula:
“Therefore, go forth and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and The Holy Spirit.” Matthew 28 : 19.

 

[Luke-Suncook]

Trinitarian formula:

“Therefore, go forth and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and The Holy Spirit.” Matthew 28 : 19.

That has no bearing on the idea of the three being co-equal. I’m impressed that Trinitarians think it does!

 

[fredystairs]

You posted that there were no Trinititarian formulations in the Bible and I showed you one.

Now you’re saying the formulation does not show equality. What does it show then?

Blessings

 

[Luke-Suncook]

That’s not a Trinitarian formula! In no way does that suggest the three are co-equal and you know it. It only shows that all three were present.

 

[fredystairs]

Actually it seems perfectly clear to me that it shows equality.

And you did not answer my question.

Blessings

 

[Luke-Suncook]

1. Why did Jesus say the Father is greater?
2. Why did Jesus say that he didn’t know when he would return but only the father did?
3. Jesus is called, “the son of God.” He’s is never called “God the son.”
4. Why is it that the holy has NO NAME?
5. Why is it the holy spirit is called, “the power of the highest?”

And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

1. Why is Jesus called “mighty God” and not Almighty God?" (20:17; Rev. 3:12).
2. Why is it that Acts 2:36 says: “God has made this Jesus…both Lord and Christ.” “Lord” is not the same as “God.”
3. Why is it that the holy spirit IS NOT found in or around the throne of God?

Can you answer these questions? I have about 20 more!

1 Cor. 15:28 says: “When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him [God] who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.”
AND THAT’S WHAT I BELIEVE!

 

[Luke-Suncook]

All I can tell you Fred is that if you think that shows the three are equal you need to go back to school. And don’t kid the forum, I DID ANSWER YOUR QUESTION!

I said,

“That’s not a Trinitarian formula! In no way does that suggest the three are co-equal and you know it. It only shows that all three were present.”

 

[fredystairs]

Jesus also says “The Father and I are one.” John 10:30. This denotes equality.

But this presents a conundrum since one verse implies that the Father is greater than the Son and the other dented equality. This is easily answered when one understands that Jesus is true God and true man. Thus those verses where Jesus says the Father is greater Jesus is talking from his human nature, when he equates himself with the Father He is talking from His Divine Nature.

Now going to the Trinitarian formula I posted above, the only sense of the passage that is reasonable is that they are equal. Otherwise, what Jesus is saying is “Baptize in the name of the Father (God), and of the Son (a creature) and the Holy Spirit (another creature). “ Since only God can save us, then the formula shows that all Three are equal.

Also, when I asked you if they are not equal then I was supposing that you would show some kind of heiarchy among the Three, since you think that they are not equal. So what is the heiarchy?

Blessings

 

[Luke-Suncook]

Jesus also says “The Father and I are one.” John 10:30. This denotes equality.

No it doesn’t. It denotes “oneness”…of the same mind and purpose.

Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

I have no problem answering your question. Why don’t you make some attempt at answering some of mine.

In John 5:19, he said**, “The Son can do nothing by himself; he can only do what he sees his Father doing”**

 

[Luke-Suncook]

Also, when I asked you if they are not equal then I was supposing that you would show some kind of heiarchy among the Three, since you think that they are not equal. So what is the heiarchy?

You didn’t see a hierarchy here…
1 Cor. 15:28 says: “When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him [God] who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.”

“Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God” (1 Cor 11:3).

How about here… Matt. 12:18 and Acts 3:26 refer to Jesus as God’s “servant”.

 

[fredystairs]

“You don’t see a heirarchy here…”

So which is it with the Trinitarian formulation ? Does it show a heiarchy or does it show equality?

As far as the verse at John 10 :30, the Jews immediately picked up stones because Jesus was equating Himself with the Father and a mere man doing so would be blasphemy. John 10:31-33. If it was merely one in purpose, then there would not have been a problem with blaspheming.

All the verses that you post in the last post can be explained by referring to Jesus’ Human nature. In his human nature he is less than the Father. However, since He also has a Divine nature, since He is God, He is equal to the Father which the verses in John 10: 30 - 33 show.

Blessings

 

[Vico]

Vico:

How foolish and judge-mental.

Those that die in a state of mortal sin are damned. It is more complex matter to determine culpability. A person that knows what the Catholic Church teaches on matters of faith and morals and willfully does not assent to it, through some mistaken idea of autonomy, and after reflection, is at risk of damnation, if dying in that state without repenting and seeking absolution.

I don’t believe a word you said. AND…the Catholic church cannot condemn anybody. AND…there’s absolutely NO Trinitarian formula in the bible, AND it’s an evil man made doctrine.

OK, I accept that you do not believe in the Trinity. Be certain however, that I did not say that the Church condemns anybody, rather they declare anathema, which means incorrect teaching.

Genesis 3: 22 And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: …

 

[Luke-Suncook]

I know…that is the cop out, his human nature.

Look at the entire passage. There are about 4 things that disprove the trinity…

30 I and my Father are one.

…of the same mind, judgment, perception, and purpose.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

If Jesus was also the Father, he wouldn’t have said “I show you works from my Father” since Jesus is both Father and Holy Spirit!

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Jesus is God, but he is not FULLY God. He said himself that God is Greater…and it has absolutely nothing to do with his human nature. He never said it did!

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

If Jesus were fully God, he would not require sanctification.

37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
IF Jesus were fully and ALSO God the Father, he would not have said such a thing as it’s contradictory.

38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Trinity is an awful depiction of God, Jesus, and the holy spirit. It’s full of contradictions.

So, what is the holy spirits name anyway? And why isn’t he found around the throne of God? Did John just ‘forget’ to mention he was there?

Revelation 4
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle. And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

 

[Cathoholic]

Luke-Suncook:

.

Jesus is God, but he is not FULLY God. He said himself that God is Greater…and it has absolutely nothing to do with his human nature. He never said it did!

.

Luke-Suncook. How do you know Jesus never said it?

God bless.

Cathoholic

 

[Vico]

I know…that is the cop out, his human nature.
…

The statements are made by Jesus Christ through the human nature (body and soul and will). The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit mutually indwell. He is sanctified which he has necessarily by always proceeding from the Father.

Matthew 3:17 And behold a voice from heaven, saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time: the only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 14

7 If you had known me, you would without doubt have known my Father also: and from henceforth you shall know him, and you have seen him.
8 Philip saith to him: Lord, shew us the Father, and it is enough for us. 9 Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me? Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also. How sayest thou, Shew us the Father? 10 Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself. But the Father who abideth in me, he doth the works. 11 Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?

But Jesus is Divine and said so and the Sanhedrin put him to death for saying so, Mark 14

61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said to him: Art thou the Christ the Son of the blessed God? 62 And Jesus said to him: I am. And you shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of the power of God, and coming with the clouds of heaven. 63 Then the high priest rending his garments, saith: What need we any further witnesses? 64 You have heard the blasphemy. What think you? Who all condemned him to be guilty of death.

 

[Genesis315]

All have the possibility of salvation (and therefore the possibility of faith). Yes, faith in the Trinity is necessary for salvation, but as Vatican II teaches elsewhere, “God in ways known to Himself can lead those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel to find that faith without which it is impossible to please Him” (Vatican II, Ad Gentes 7).

So those who are not Christian now can be led to the necessary faith by God, even in ways known only to God Himself.

See also CCC 161 and 848.