Who here is getting tired of the same old same old?

[mfrances]

Remember that the sword cuts both ways.

The big problem is when some start demanding that the sacraments and worship be provided to them according to their preference, as if the Church was here to serve them.

-Tim-

It is not so much “demanding”, as it is asking for what we need. If there was a large Polish population in a diocese, no one would be offended if they asked for their own Mass.

 

[ProVobis]

It is not so much “demanding”, as it is asking for what we need. If there was a large Polish population in a diocese, no one would be offended if they asked for their own Mass.

I don’t know about that. When I mention I’d like to have the Anglican Use Mass in Polish, they go ballistics.

 

[Nowhere_Man]

Tradition encompasses more than a particular expression of the Liturgy, no?

tee

Of course! However, there’s a difference between Tradition, the deposit of faith of the Church, and tradition, the practices of Her followers.

 

[prettiefly]

I couldn’t agree more, Archangel04. There’s a reason it’s called the traditional Catholicism section. If you staunchly prefer the OF Mass, why come in hear unless you have a genuine interest in the EF?

Exactly. I am new here, and so I started scratching my head after reading so many comments along those lines - why would someone come here if they don’t have a genuine interest in the EF??

…
For stories of prayers answered through the intersession of St. Anthony, visit
saintanthonylostandfound.blogspot.com/

 

[archangel04]

Well, it’s a good question to ask, and the Catholic who asked the question is not in error. When you get a group of people exclaiming with all their might that the practices they follow are “more reverent”, you are necessarily arguing that anyone who worships or dresses differently is less holier than you. Will a chapel veil lead you to Heaven? Can anyone point to me the chapter and verse where Jesus makes such statement? You can’t for the simple fact it’s not there. But explicitly and implicitly, it’s made out on these forums that anyone who wears a chapel veil is worshiping God more correctly, and ergo, is on a first-class trip to Heaven. I have seen and heard of people dealing with sins such as premarital intercourse, alcoholism, and the like, who are concerning themselves with wearing a chapel veil. Which do you think is more important - combating your sins of the flesh, or what headpiece you are going to take to Mass next Sunday? Of which is outlined in both Church teaching and the Bible as leading one to eternal damnation?

A disclaimer is always helpful. It sets out the tone for the thread that the OP will not be tolerating people with pride putting others down. The attitude I have seen has left me in nothing more than pure disgust. I recall reading a Catholic news website a few days ago discussing about Pope John Paul II’s beatification, and I saw a ‘traditional’ Catholic arguing with what amounts to virtual gibberish that Pope John Paul II did not deserve a beatification and was a great sinner because of XYZ. Which comes as no surprise - many ‘traditionalists’ have some kind of attraction towards Hell. They make bold assertions that most of Humanity is going to Hell (something not supported in the bible at all!) and even coming up with frightening statistics such as “3 out of 15000 are saved”. The sad irony is that such belief will lead one to Hell as it is a sin of despair - the unforgivable sin that Jesus talks about: Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Generally speaking, I’m wary about many Catholics who consider themselves “traditional”. I don’t see a lot I can learn from them. I’m interested in how I can make the world a better place; how I can make myself a better person. I’m not interested in Latin, chapel veils, suits, or anything of the sort, and the Bible suggests that God feels the same way. Latin won’t save you.

Interesting, but then we come to the problem, what defines reverence? There must be a definition that would apply to the litugical celebration on what is appropriate reverence.

Perhaps some “traditionalist” tend to be stuck with the idea that almost everyone ends up in hell, but the new more popular modern idea is that hell does not exist or that no one really ends up there, which of course neither the Church nor the bible supports.

 

[archangel04]

Totally sick of it to the point that I have been limiting my postings. All the defensiveness is tiring. In fact I’ve put some posters on ignore because all they do is run around this forum whining about the EF and trads

Exactly!!! And most of us know who they are! It get’s tiring and I wan’t to thanks my friends who have said they feel the same way as I do. For a quick second I thought maybe I was just thinking too much about it.

Another example, ad orientem is the practice that really should make a return and be the norm even the Holy Father hints this in some of his writings. Anytime anyone mentions this we get other who dislike it and say it’s a rude practice. Yet, they don’t go over the EC forum and post there to tell the ECs that the practice of ad orientem is a rude or outdated practice. It’s always open season for TC.

 

[archangel04]

Alot of people will be subconsciously offended by the fact that you drive 10-20 miles to a Latin Mass, bypassing several closer Catholic churches along the way. To many of them, you just said “They’re not good enough for me”. To them I’ll just have to take the easy route and respond by saying “You just don’t understand how we feel about the Latin Mass”

Perhaps you are right I guess they just don’t understand. Perhaps this is our girft, but also our cross. Christ did not come to bring peace.

 

[archangel04]

Remember that the sword cuts both ways.

The big problem is when some start demanding that the sacraments and worship be provided to them according to their preference, as if the Church was here to serve them.

-Tim-

And yet you have lay commitees who do the same thing
Most of use would be happy to have an EF 5 to 10 min away from our homes. Most of us understands that it’s not always possible to be able to have an EF at our home parish, but what we don’t understand is that if the opportunity is there why are we denied that opportunity, at least to give it a chance?

 

[tee_eff_em]

I couldn’t agree more, Archangel04. There’s a reason it’s called the traditional Catholicism section. If you staunchly prefer the OF Mass, why come in hear unless you have a genuine interest in the EF?

Tradition encompasses more than a particular expression of the Liturgy, no?

Of course! However, there’s a difference between Tradition, the deposit of faith of the Church, and tradition, the practices of Her followers.

Exactly. I am new here, and so I started scratching my head after reading so many comments along those lines - why would someone come here if they don’t have a genuine interest in the EF??

Is it soooooo hard to believe that a person could *staunchly prefer *one expression of the Liturgy, yet still be interested in traditional practices?

tee

 

[TrueLight]

Alot of people will be subconsciously offended by the fact that you drive 10-20 miles to a Latin Mass, bypassing several closer Catholic churches along the way.

But, whose fault is that?

To many of them, you just said “They’re not good enough for me”. To them I’ll just have to take the easy route and respond by saying “You just don’t understand how we feel about the Latin Mass”

Since it doesn’t take us 5 days on horseback anymore to get from point A to point B, and since we have options, why can’t someone travel to a mass, which seems more reverent to that person?

If the Pope declared that from now on that the TLM would become the ordinary form once again and the OF would become the extraordinary form, how many would travel for miles to attend the mass they feel includes the people more and is better for their spiritual well-being?

 

[mfrances]

As for the actual issue of “same old same old” gripe threads… I think a good solution is to start lots of new post threads about constructive and interesting topics that appeal to TC’s. And good ol’ plain ignoring people who come here to make trouble.

 

[archangel04]

As for the actual issue of “same old same old” gripe threads… I think a good solution is to start lots of new post threads about constructive and interesting topics that appeal to TC’s. And good ol’ plain ignoring people who come here to make trouble.

i agree to this, but another issues, and this is not towards you, we get newbs on here who post on topics that have been beaten to death. A reason why always say use the search option! The search button is your friend, and only then after reading old threads should you post a question.

 

[rben20]

The only problem with your analogy is that you’re presupposing that those who attend the OF declare themselves as holier than those who attend the EF.

I’ve never seen a person who attends the OF consider their Mass “more reverent” because it’s in the vernacular or for XYZ reason. But such attitude is easily displayed on these forums by those who attend the EF - “I wear a chapel veil because it’s more ‘reverent’, and I want it to be more widespread like before”, or “the Mass is in Latin, and it’s more ‘reverent’”, etc. Those who attend the OF do not create Youtube videos, start threads or write blogs putting other Catholics down for what is equally appropriate worship. They are not obsessed on external forms of piety that has absolutely 0 value when God’s judgement arrives. Indeed, it’s harder to be a good person internally than it is to be a good person externally:

“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.” (Matthew 6:5-6)

Well I hope you noticed my presumption is based on yours which is those who attend the EF feel high and mighty when it is really a preference for what they feel suits them spiritually better. How do you know for a fact that there is no holier than thou amongst OF church goers? It’s amongst everyone, don’t be naive. Cherry picking is never accurate. What a great way of twisting scripture to somehow pin Jesus’s words on traditionalists too…Your bias and opinions do have some truth but lets not act like the OF church goers have their backs against the wall…after all they are the majority. It seems odd that the majority would cry out persecution and be so offended by mean old minority traditionalists. We are the ones who struggle because what we find spiritually nurturing is not widely available. We can’t even ask within the limits of SP because it’s “demanding” as one poster put. OF church goers are happy and content and that’s great. EF church goers are simply trying to access what was never abrogated (even though everyone acted like it was).

Archangel is saying it right. This is a traditional forum where topics are traditional based. This should be a point of sharing and not debate as it always turns out. Let those who like the EF and wish to promote it do so through discussion and any other traditions of the Church.

 

[zab]

i agree to this, but another issues, and this is not towards you, we get newbs on here who post on topics that have been beaten to death. A reason why always say use the search option! The search button is your friend, and only then after reading old threads should you post a question.

You can’t please everybody. Some newbees do use the search button and they read a post that they want to comment on. The only thing is, they may not have taken note that the thread is several years old. Then they get hounded for posting on an old thread.

 

[TimothyH]

It is not so much “demanding”, as it is asking for what we need. If there was a large Polish population in a diocese, no one would be offended if they asked for their own Mass.

You need the priest to say “This is my body” and for the round disk to hit your tounge.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

If the Pope declared that from now on that the TLM would become the ordinary form once again and the OF would become the extraordinary form, how many would travel for miles to attend the mass they feel includes the people more and is better for their spiritual well-being?

Personally, I would still attend the Mass at the parish in which I live.

I feel strongly that parish identity and involvment is not taken seriously enough. Parish involvement starts with the Eucharist. When we receive the Eucharist, we are united to Christ and his body in the most profound way. A parish must first unite around the Eucharist. If they don’t do that, they can do nothing. If they do that, they can do anything.

The pirmary unit of the Body of Christ is the parish, and parish life is where the Body of Christ touches each of us personally, and where Christ’s body touches the secular world. So involvement in ministry at the parish level, making friends at the parish level, using other members of our parish for business, and reception of the Eucharist with other members of our parish, as I see it, is extremely important.

And so I would attend any Mass offered at my parish. If I felt strongly enough about it that I didn’t want to go to that particular Mass, I would actually consider moving - selling my house and moving - to another parish. I moved to a the parish I am in for a reason. Rather God led me there for a reason. The parish was one of the major reasons why I moved to the place where I currently live, and I belive that God places us in certain parishes for a reason.

My position has little to do with EF, OF, or what language the Mass is in. In a few weeks I’ll go to my first Latin Mass since I was an infant. But God placed me in a particular parish and so that is where I go, except for the occasional trip to the monastery where I would live if I could, or travel.

I wonder how deep one’s roots in the cell of Christ’s body - the parish - can be if they life in one town and drive to Mass in another. Many are certainly missing on some aspects of the Christian life.

-Tim-

 

[tlimon]

i agree to this, but another issues, and this is not towards you, we get newbs on here who post on topics that have been beaten to death. A reason why always say use the search option! The search button is your friend, and only then after reading old threads should you post a question.

Why go see a therapist? Shouldn’t you just buy a stack a books and sort your problems out yourself? Sometimes people like to speak with another person. Learning is more that flat presentation of information. Pedigogically, people learn from interaction. We should be traditional AND evangelistic. Maybe there should be ongoing open threads were newbs can divert questions and regulars here can address their needs. Just a thought.

 

[At_Trent]

What about the Bible? Again, it doesn’t say so specifically. Verses such as “…] For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it” (Matthew 7:13) are open up to interpretation. …

…One can only be agnostic about this issue, and entrust all of Humanity to God’s mercy.

13 *Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who enter by it.

14 How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way, which leadeth to life: and few there are who find it

Even Haydock doesn’t interpret it

Ver. 13. Enter ye in at the narrow gate, &c. The doctrine of these two verses needs no commentary, but deserve serious attention. (Witham)

One had better give it serious thought.

Christ Himself revealed the reality of Hell and the fewness of those who will be saved. To say otherwise is heresy.

 

[tlimon]

I wonder how deep one’s roots in the cell of Christ’s body - the parish - can be if they life in one town and drive to Mass in another. Many are certainly missing on some aspects of the Christian life.

You present a very geographical concept of community. Consider the fact that we belong to number of overlapping communities: bowling league, local elks lodge, corporate regional divisions, congressional districts, univerisity communities, online communities, and brick and mortar neighborhoods too. There is much to be said for localism. However, we must acknowledge that our identies among communities can be somewhat fluid. For instance, I attend a Catholic University. While there is a parish closer to where I live, I attend the parish on the University Campus. My fellow law students go there, professors from the university goes there, the priest who lives on my sister’s residence hall is a priest there, the barista from the coffee shop next to campus goes there. You see what I mean? My university identity is more salient than my neighborhood identity.

Moreover, I occasionally attend an EF mass through the FSSP that is 45 minutes away. Technically, the mass is in another state! I enjoy the discussions that I have with people there. I enjoy the encouragement. The parish at the univeristy can be very distracting - guitars, bongo drums, flag waving, and other oddities. People there, by an large, espouse heretical ideas. The RCIA could have graduated a witch doctor from the program and called them Catholic. I stay there because I am part of that community and I provide a traditional, no we’ll just say orthodox, voice of Catholicism.

Sometimes, I need a break. Sometimes, I need some encouragement. Sometimes, I like to be in a place of reverance where I don’t have to condense a laser beam of conscience in order to see past all the externals that lead me to be distracted from the Eucharist. You’re right the Eucharist is the point and the OF, as it’s practiced at my regular parish, is glazed over by what a few people think is “hip and fun.” I don’t doubt the legitimacy of the OF. I don’t judge people who think the OF is a helpful vehicle for the sacraments. I personally feel the OF distracts me from Christ who I know is really present.

Different forms of spirituality only adds texture and richness to the Church. As long as we acknowledge that we are one Church, ultimately, I don’t see the problem with different expressions. I don’t know why I should just go the parish next door and grin and bear the bongo drums.

 

[archangel04]

Well I hope you noticed my presumption is based on yours which is those who attend the EF feel high and mighty when it is really a preference for what they feel suits them spiritually better. How do you know for a fact that there is no holier than thou amongst OF church goers? It’s amongst everyone, don’t be naive. Cherry picking is never accurate. What a great way of twisting scripture to somehow pin Jesus’s words on traditionalists too…Your bias and opinions do have some truth but lets not act like the OF church goers have their backs against the wall…after all they are the majority. It seems odd that the majority would cry out persecution and be so offended by mean old minority traditionalists. We are the ones who struggle because what we find spiritually nurturing is not widely available. We can’t even ask within the limits of SP because it’s “demanding” as one poster put. OF church goers are happy and content and that’s great. EF church goers are simply trying to access what was never abrogated (even though everyone acted like it was).

Archangel is saying it right. This is a traditional forum where topics are traditional based. This should be a point of sharing and not debate as it always turns out. Let those who like the EF and wish to promote it do so through discussion and any other traditions of the Church.

reben and let us remind the other who claim that the traditional ways are for old people. Last time I check you and I are in our 20s!!