Who is for/against centering prayer?

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Alan:
My hypothesis is that people who speak strongly against centering prayer are, by and large, do not have an experience of contemplative prayer in general. This of course will not prove anything but might give a good calibration.
My hypothesis is that people who speak strongly against centering prayer are those who DO have experience of contemplative prayer, and are able to discern the true from the bogus, and can speak with authority to warn those who wish to climb the mountain by ways unknown to the saints.

Not all centering prayer is dangerous, as we have explored elsewhere on the forum, but the misconceptions people pick up from reading about it and then attempting to practice it without direction or true understanding, are very dangerous.
 
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aaronjmagnan:
I think that centering prayer takes the intellect out of prayer. And this is dangerous.

And . . .

The intellect was very much at work in St. John of the Cross’ work. The Dark Night of the Soul is an experience that came upon him and then he explained it. And yet, he looked for ecstatic union through humility and regular prayer. contemplative prayer still requires the intellect to participate in the process of prayer. For prayer is an active, not passive occurence.
And this is what makes these discussions so difficult . . . it all depends on *where we are coming from * when we make our points.

I would say that when speaking strictly of infused contemplation we are completely and totally passive and the work of our intellect is actually a hinderance. Look to what the saints and Doctors say with regard to “distractions” at such times and how we are not to allow our minds to chew on our thoughts. To do so is to resist a grace that is being given. At such times we are completely filled with God . . . not emptied.

In this context (dealing with distractions during infused contemplation), the CP concept of the sacred word might have a certain appeal and benefit.

Dave.
 
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DBT:
Hi Alan -

You have a passion I admire greatly . . . but don’t trouble yourself so much with what others around here think 🙂 Do what you can . . . but leave the outcomes of your efforts on these forums to God.

This simple statement is an example of a “method” the Doctors DO teach - the way of virtue: humility, abandonment and detachment. These are the foundations on which a contemplative life is built . . . whether one is cloistered or living in the world.

And if you want some sort of proof that the path you’re walking is correct. . . simply look for signs of growth in virtue in your own life. If you see it, you probably have little to fear.

Dave
I have experienced unspeakable beauty, as recently as an hour ago. It happens without my causing it. :crying:

Nothing I do is of my own doing. :confused:

I don’t know what else I can tell you except thank you and others for being you so that I can be me and free. 👍

The whole concept of whether I’m right or wrong seems immaterial, as I bumble along saying this then that, often contradicting myself, and I find such beautiful people come from all ends of the Catholic and even non-Catholic spectrum.

I am humbled by all the different people there are with all the ways they go on their faith journey and how they explain their choices. There are so many really great thinkers here that it helps me from being judgmental and presumptuous of others’ views – they reflect back to me well so that I can see where I’m strong and where I might go next.

How can a person not be moved?

Alan :dancing:
 
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Joysong:
My hypothesis is that people who speak strongly against centering prayer are those who DO have experience of contemplative prayer, and are able to discern the true from the bogus, and can speak with authority to warn those who wish to climb the mountain by ways unknown to the saints.

Not all centering prayer is dangerous, as we have explored elsewhere on the forum, but the misconceptions people pick up from reading about it and then attempting to practice it without direction or true understanding, are very dangerous.
Thank you. I can appreciate this, because it isn’t something you can just read about and then do without competent direction and training. Maybe it comes naturally to some people but to me it didn’t.

Some think that this devotion, being relatively new, is best left prior to Vatican-II, but others, such as myself, consider it just another tool in the “spiritual arsenal” of the Church that can be used constructively. The traditions we have are good because they tie us together from one day to the next and one generation to the next, and solidify a certain extent of our wordly experience. To me, doing Lectio or CP, or Rosary, or Adoration, or whatever, as another poster mentioned the Holy SPirit can and does work through all these, are for different people at different times. Just as some religious are called to cloistered life and others to active life, I think there are a certain number of active people who are called to this prayer form, with respect of course to its not being misused or misapplied.

Alan
 
A wise priest I knew once said,“We aren’t supposed to be centered in prayer, we’re supposed to be *sundered *in prayer.” I suppose you could be sundered in centering prayer.
 
OK. I think I’m beginning to understand why I’m asking so much of all of your patience. I will get right to the most significant point of why I can’t let go.

Whenever I speak of centering prayer, I have no problem with people knowing there are those who think it’s dangerous.

What I have a hard time dealing with is the scary lingo that is applied. We all, let’s hope, assume that none of us are trying to go to hell or consort with evil spirits, and let’s further assume that a devotion that thousands of ordained priests and bishops practice globaly is not done lightly by outsiders looking and and thinking they look rather strange.

Fr. Dreher’s article concluded that he personally believes that centering prayer is a satanic invasion of the Church.

To me that is very disturbing, and an unfortunate use of rhetoric. The spiritual director for many of our own diocese priests, Fr. Pecht, used to run the centering prayer meetings when he was here, being fully trained and qualified by Contemplative Outreach. To me, to say that this is a satanic invasion means that bishop Thomas Olmsted, who was aware of and supported centering prayer meetings, knowingly or by ignorance allowed the Wichita Diocese to go to hell.

With Fr. Dreher painting this image of our diocese and our bishops, Bishop Emeritus Eugene Gerber, and our current bishop also (like Olmsted) moved here from the vatican Michael Jackel, and they all support centering prayer, one can only conclude that our diocese is going to hell and if I think that fuels my energy centers of security and comfort.

Either Fr. Dreher’s personal opinion is wrong, or Wichita is doomed. If it is wrong, I further characterize it as demonization. I’m sorry if this message does not echo the same message as an article on Catholic Answers, but I thought that a forum was a proper place to discuss what one does think of published articles, so I hope it is appropriate for me to express this disagreement – while still saying that I much appreciate Catholic Answers as it is a constant blessing for me. Frankly I was personally offended by Fr. Dreher’s article, and those wounds are reopened every time I see a thread go the way of people ganging up against Keating and his whole organization using articles such as this. In case this makes it easier to understand, I don’t mind people asking questions or even being cautious about CP. To say in scholarly way that it appears this is a plot by satan to overthrow the Church from the inside goes too far. How can priest write articles about other priests and bishops like this? How am I to respect my own bishop? This is where I’m at; is Wichita hell and do I need to move out to save my soul?

My hunch: I don’t think so. I think I am to be obedient to my own bishop.

Alan
 
Dear Alan,

The difference in people’s conceptions of CP and whether or not they are capable of embracing it, is having the practice directed by competent spiritual authority who are able to explain the right and wrong way of centering, and discern the readiness of the person’s spirit to embark on the voyage.

What I have learned in these threads and in a book on CP, is that some enthusiasts who had a positive experience, rush out to share it with anyone who will listen, regardless of their readiness to practice it.

I have Penington’s book, and in it, he was affirming a young mother’s report that she and her three-year-old practiced CP together! He also commended a teacher of catechetics for teaching it to grade school children. Oh Please! That’s where we need to draw the line, and perhaps that’s the basic objection of those who are against the practice … that some promoters use very little discretion, nor pay heed to the Holy Spirit’s leading in the lives of their listeners.

Some of these souls have been terribly harmed, and they will naturally shout from the rooftops how dangerous it was for them, assuming that it has the same ill effect for everyone else. How does one understand the difference? By following the writings and practices of the saints, until such time as they are experienced enough in prayer to discern the Spirit’s leading, and whether, if at all, CP is His guidance for them.

I need to say a few words, I think, quoting St. Teresa’s warning to some very holy nuns in her new convents who fell into deception, thinking this absorption was a good and holy mysticism. How much more susceptible could a simple lay person become, through reading an exciting book about the esoteric experience of contacting Divinity?

In her book “Foundations” (Collected Works), she devotes the entire Chapter 6 warning her prioresses about the dangers of these absorptions, a/k/a* stupefaction*. We know that she herself was deluded by the mysticism of this pseudo contemplation, and wished to prevent its occurrence with her sisters.
Section 2: In this absorption the imagination does not wander but in apprehending one thing, concentrates on it without distraction.

Section 4: In rapture or union of the faculties, the duration is short, (about the length of an Ave Maria, she wrote elsewhere) and great effects, interior light, and many other benefits are given, and the intellect doesn’t work (it cannot think, but it is not idle, for the Lord fills it with Himself); it is the Lord who works in the will.

In absorption, things are very different, for although the body is captive, the will is not, nor is the memory or the intellect. (They are idle, empty, inert. She alluded to knowing persons who spent seven to eight hours in this absorption, and I noted one person who wrote of this on the forum)

Section 5: So I counsel the prioresses to make every possible effort to prevent the nuns from spending long periods in this daze. For to remain in such an absorption is nothing else, in my opinion, than to allow the faculties and senses to become crippled and not carry out what the soul commands them … give these persons duties that will distract them.
I perceive that CP has been good for you, but there again, you have been taught well and were brought to that stage of spiritual development where it did not work against you. It seems good to me to leave it be and not do the Spirit’s work of guiding others to it. My experience has been that when a person is ready, the Teacher will come, every step of the way - through a friend, a book, the clergy, or in so many wonderful ways we cannot imagine. May we entrust these souls to Him, for they truly are His own.

Carole
 
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AlanFromWichita:
Fr. Dreher’s article concluded that he personally believes that centering prayer is a satanic invasion of the Church.
Alan
Since your post was about this Father’s article could you please provide the source so that we can see it in full context?
 
If someone can post a scripturally and traditionally sound theological argument for centering prayer, I would be happy to try and understand it. But so far the attempts are not theological and at most are relativist in their attempt to let all things go that feel good.

If Paul says to pray without ceasing, and there is a way to pray (such as Jesus told us), and we are not seeking beauty in prayer but glory and holiness, and some people in the Old Testament tried to bring about their deity by vain repetitions, and there is no mention in scripture or tradition about finding the center, or seeking the kingdom of heaven within, and those cloistered have made a vow to concentrate on God in the way specific to the order, and we laity have never and can never make such a vow from our offices, classrooms, and jobsites, and the grace of prayer is from the Holy Spirit contacting us, not us finding him in us, and …
St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theo. Question 88, “How the Human Soul Knows What is Above Itself:”
Article 3 "Whether God is the First Thing Known by the Human Mind:"
Reply to Objection 3:
“If there existed in our souls a perfect image of God, as the Son is the perfect image of the Father, our mind would know God at once. But the image in our minds is imperfect.”
Then we should have no problem taking the standpoint that prayer is an activity, thus active, or as Pope Benedict as Ratzinger says on Christian active/passive relationships [in monotheism]:
“Man…can do nothing of himself but instead we have an activity on the part of God, a call from God, and man opens himself to salvation through obedience to the call.”
(Italics mine) “Truth and Tolerance” p. 36
God bless, and keep praying!
Aaron
 
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Joysong:
My experience has been that when a person is ready, the Teacher will come, every step of the way - through a friend, a book, the clergy, or in so many wonderful ways we cannot imagine. May we entrust these souls to Him, for they truly are His own.
Carole
:amen:

Dave.
 
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Joysong:
Dear Alan,

The difference in people’s conceptions of CP and whether or not they are capable of embracing it, is having the practice directed by competent spiritual authority who are able to explain the right and wrong way of centering, and discern the readiness of the person’s spirit to embark on the voyage.
I respect that consideration, and agree that centering prayer should be done under competent guidance. For that matter, most Catholics I know have never heard of spiritual direction so that’s something they might consider looking into regardless of if they talk about centering prayer!
I have Penington’s book, and in it, he was affirming a young mother’s report that she and her three-year-old practiced CP together! He also commended a teacher of catechetics for teaching it to grade school children. Oh Please! That’s where we need to draw the line, and perhaps that’s the basic objection of those who are against the practice … that some promoters use very little discretion, nor pay heed to the Holy Spirit’s leading in the lives of their listeners.
Here’s something I don’t understand.

Why is silent prayer considered only for the “advanced?” What happened to “be like a child” and “last shall be first?”

Why do we presume it is dangerous for a child to sit quietly for 20 minutes? We are playing into the hands of the Ritalin generation to believe they cannot.

What age is old enough to consider “hard core” prayer that the CCC endorses? How advanced is it when my first grader goes with me to Stations of the Cross? Isn’t that pretty hard core reality for a child to deal with?

Please, why is it so obvious that quiet is dangerous for a child that you use “please” as such as strongly combative grammatical device?
I perceive that CP has been good for you, but there again, you have been taught well and were brought to that stage of spiritual development where it did not work against you. It seems good to me to leave it be and not do the Spirit’s work of guiding others to it.
How is the Spirit to guide anybody to the prayer if it weren’t for one human being telling another? I think the Holy SPirit is working through this thread right now, helping people see things I probably cannot even see as I staunchly defend my side while hopefully trying ever more to see why the other side feels so adamantly.
My experience has been that when a person is ready, the Teacher will come, every step of the way - through a friend, a book, the clergy, or in so many wonderful ways we cannot imagine. May we entrust these souls to Him, for they truly are His own.
I agree. I also believe the Teacher can come through an online forum – for what are we but “friends” in Christ, all trying to coordinate our points of view? I’m learning a lot about dealing with our intellectual divisions without it making me feel angry or frightened.

Alan
 
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Jenlyn:
Since your post was about this Father’s article could you please provide the source so that we can see it in full context?
Thanks to Guar Fan for providing the link to the article.
Fr. Dreher’s article: “The Danger of Centering Prayer”

Here is the specific sentence I find that sums it up pretty well:
The rapid spread of centering prayer in the past decade into so many areas which are at the very heart of Catholic faith is, I believe, part of the Devil’s strategy against the Church.
To me this sounds very presumptuous, divisive, and a slap in the face to many people I consider very holy. Either that or he’s right and I need to know that convincingly so I can be on the proper side of this for both myself and for whatever kind of advice I might presume to give others even if inadvertently.

Alan
 
But the vulnerability of man today to manipulation is today much greater than it was even a half-century ago. The moral order and faith in God have drastically declined. Man’s technology and managerial abilities have increased. Tyranny has better tools to dominate others and, more and more, a ripe situation in which to do so. The restraining influences on the work of evil spirits are being stripped away: loss of moral standards, breakup of family life, uprootedness, merely functional relationships, emptiness of meaning. In this context, what centering prayer does, at a minimum, is make respectable the false spiritualities that are rushing in to fill the spiritual void.
My hypothesis is that it is Satan’s strategy, in all these things, to strip away the physiological and psychological forces that, in our fallen state, are a fail safe protection for the human spirit. (This is a possible interpretation of Paul’s words in 2 Thessalonians 2:6–10 about the lawless one and the force that restrains him.) Thus, he can hope to capture the spirit of man worldwide and establish a kingdom of darkness.
I gather that this is where you get your ideas about Fr. Dreher.
Fr. Dreher’s article concluded that he personally believes that centering prayer is a satanic invasion of the Church.
Wouldn’t you agree that the world is becoming more secularized? That Satan is “winning” many souls through these things he mentions here? Wouldn’t you also agree that the less people pray to God the less likely they will be to follow Him? Isn’t prayer suppose to be TO God? Why would you leave Him out of it in hopes of being filled of Him? Wouldn’t you want to go to the source?
Either Fr. Dreher’s personal opinion is wrong, or Wichita is doomed. If it is wrong, I further characterize it as demonization.
Fr. Dreher used many other’s people’s quotes in this article. So it is not all his personal opinion. I don’t see him saying anything to conclude this idea.
one can only conclude that our diocese is going to hell
Thanks for the article Guar.
 
Our Pope doesn’t seem to agree with Abbot Keating
Cardinal Ratzinger has reservations. He warns about methods which “try as far as possible to put aside everything that is worldly, sense perceptible, or conceptually limited.” An approach of this sort to prayer may actually be “an attempt to ascend to or immerse oneself in the sphere of the divine, which as such is neither terrestrial, sense perceptible nor capable of conceptualization.”
Father Dreher seems to in line with the Pope once again
Besides the temptation to reject the material world in this approach there is another problem-indicated by Cardinal Ratzinger’s use of the word “oneself” in the last quote-the temptation to ascend to God by one’s own power or strength. In fact it is God’s choice, not ours, whether we enter the sphere of the divine. “God is free to ‘empty’ us of all that holds us back … to draw us completely into the Trinitarian life of his eternal love,” but this gift is granted “not through our own efforts.”
This seemes to address the quotes that I made in my previous post.

Here is the article
dotm.org/decelles-1.htm
 
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Jenlyn:
Wouldn’t you agree that the world is becoming more secularized? That Satan is “winning” many souls through these things he mentions here? Wouldn’t you also agree that the less people pray to God the less likely they will be to follow Him? Isn’t prayer suppose to be TO God? Why would you leave Him out of it in hopes of being filled of Him? Wouldn’t you want to go to the source?
I think Father Dreher has made many good points about the state of society. It has nothing to do, however, with centering prayer. The conclusions I find troubling are his specific statements about centering prayer as if that were linked to all these evils he mentions. He raises these evils that we all are against, but then concludes that centering prayer is evil – as if there are two story lines running in the article and they get mixed up.

Where we get from practically every new age evil in society to centering prayer is only weakly interlocked with the assertion that CP is “new age” and therefore is connected with all those things. Those are extremely serious charges, tantamount to saying that all bishops who allow CP in the dioceses have fallen into a diabolical plot. Can anybody tell me I’m wrong about this?
Fr. Dreher used many other’s people’s quotes in this article. So it is not all his personal opinion. I don’t see him saying anything to conclude this idea.
This one following – the really the most astounding part I think – is specifically his personal conclusions, as indicated below by the words “I believe.” This is personal opinion and therefore I don’t fault him for having it. I do fault him for acting as if he has convingly proven it. Technically I cannot say he is wrong, because he has not asserted CP was evil, just made the inference – but that to me is kind of lawyer-ish and borderline cheating:
Fr. Dreher:
The rapid spread of centering prayer in the past decade into so many areas which are at the very heart of Catholic faith is, I believe, part of the Devil’s strategy against the Church.
Alan
 
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Jenlyn:
Our Pope doesn’t seem to agree with Abbot Keating

Father Dreher seems to in line with the Pope once again

This seemes to address the quotes that I made in my previous post.

Here is the article
dotm.org/decelles-1.htm
I’ve read this before and I was going to try to give a summary overview but I couldn’t get past the comment “a quick way of finding God.”

This is a characature of centering prayer, and by the attempt to attach this phrase – notice also in lawyer-ish fashion this author just throws this phrase out and never claims it is attached. This is the same kind of trick a lawyer once used to get forbidden evidence presented at a trial where I was in the jury. He got his image across without having to actually make technically false statements.

The rest of the article is just so much blather. Thanks for calling it to my attention. It just raises a bunch of hobgoblins and then attempts to assign them with centering prayer through inference.

For example, how does the idea that asking for 20 minutes of pray twice a day equate to a “quick method of finding God?” I can only hope it is out of gross misinformation this article is written as it is, for if it were written this way on purpose I’m afraid it would be very cunning indeed.

Alan

edit>> frankly this article is exactly the kind that drives me nuts. Father Dreher’s article is much nicer by comparison, and at least does not lead me to question whether he is being intentionally misleading. (I don’t doubt the sincerity of Fr Dreher but I do with this guy – this stuff strikes me with about the vitriolic effect of a Jack Chick tract.
 
Boy, you leave the forums for just a little while then whooooooosh . . .

Was that Elvis or the Holy Spirit leaving the building?

C’mon everyone.
 
Dear Alan,

It is difficult for me to present an opposite view of something which is obviously very dear to your heart, and has been highly effectual in your spiritual progress. I can only speak of what I know, not those things I don’t know, for I am not a practitioner of CP.

Many years ago, I attended a chance workshop where the presenters imposed this prayer on the entire group of participants, without questioning their willingness or desire to take part in it. We had all of the eastern quieting techniques, and were given a booklet to help us continue these practices at home privately. There was not a single inquiry of our spiritual development, and the leaders assumed all of us were ready, willing and able to do their exercise. We were not given the option to leave the room, but expected to obey the instructions.

I have also come to know that this is what happened in some classrooms where teachers imposed this upon the children without parental notification or knowledge. The presenter assumes the child will obey and proceeds to “help” them with this beneficial method of preparing them to find God.

Again, does the teacher know the psychological ability of the child to sit 20 minutes in abstract thought processes that eliminate all other transient thoughts? I seriously doubt a grade school child is able to do this, and I would be highly upset if it were my child who was taught this. My grandson is A.D.D., and I shudder to think what would happen if someone got hold of him in this manner.

Though it may be a Catholic School, not every child in class is “devoted” to God, and may not even have much of a prayer life other than grace at meals and the customary OF, HM, and GB. In short, they are simply not ready or able to maintain a lengthly concentration on God with a heart filled with love and desire … a veritable prerequisite, IMO. And this is not the customary development of prayer to begin at this level of concentration.

Alan, are you suggesting that this is an easy practice for 5th graders? Do you know this for certain from what your Outreach teaches? Would you be one to impose it without their consent, such as I experienced in the workshop? These are my concerns, but I doubt further reasoning will do much to convince me that this is good for the wide community of the faithful. If the book itself was not able to accomplish this, then I would have to see the fruit in the lives of those who practice it in order to be convinced.

One person who witnessed that he spent many hours a day in CP with experiences of visions and revelations, was the most uncharitable person in practical interaction with others. No visible fruit, no possibility of my acceptance.

God’s peace and joy,
Carole
 
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Joysong:
Alan, are you suggesting that this is an easy practice for 5th graders?
No. It is simple, though getting it right can be an abstract process as you mentioned. Whether a devotion is “easy” I think is very personal. I do think, though, considering we had very contemplative saints that died in their pre-teens, and the Blessed Mother Herself was only a young teen, at what age is a child ready for spiritual consent? Confirmation perhaps? I ask this as a serious but not particularly urgent question because I do believe the Spirit is in charge.
Do you know this for certain from what your Outreach teaches?
No, nor do I claim expertise on what CO teaches.
Would you be one to impose it without their consent, such as I experienced in the workshop?
No. It sounds like it was done very poorly as you described.
These are my concerns, but I doubt further reasoning will do much to convince me that this is good for the wide community of the faithful. If the book itself was not able to accomplish this, then I would have to see the fruit in the lives of those who practice it in order to be convinced.
One person who witnessed that he spent many hours a day in CP with experiences of visions and revelations, was the most uncharitable person in practical interaction with others. No visible fruit, no possibility of my acceptance.

God’s peace and joy,
Carole
Thank you for your wonderful post. You have a very convincing story, and I am complete agreement with you. Why would somebody be called to a devotion when its devotees don’t seem to be getting fruits?

Sure, many practice the prayer for years without seeing fruits and some for a short time – just like with other devotions the consolations (or whatever they are properly called) and blessings are personal, based on God’s relationship with each person, so it effects people differently. Just the same, I would hardly want to go to an angry, annoying person to take lessons in how to become filled with the fruits of the spirit – that just plain doesn’t make sense even if it does look good on paper.

Thanks again for your thoughtful post. I’m really starting to see where some of this anti-CP sentiment can be coming from, and yes, that does help me to know. My own experience has been positive, without really any drawbacks so that’s what I do claim to know. Whether I am to play a role in helping correct problems of any sort, I leave myself up for grabs as much as possible. I don’t claim to know what the Lord will ask of me tomorrow or next year, so I just enjoy today. At this time I don’t think I have any more issues to bring up. 🙂

Alan
 
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