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Kliska
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Immigration may be different, though I know that you can indeed fully convert. About the immigration issue; my first grab was wiki; “The law since 1970 applies to those born Jews (having a Jewish mother or maternal grandmother), those with Jewish ancestry (having a Jewish father or grandfather) and converts to Judaism (Orthodox, Reform, or Conservative denominations—not secular—though Reform and Conservative conversions must take place outside the state, similar to civil marriages).”
Obviously from a Christian perspective, the idea of different people groups now only includes Non-believer and believer. To be in right relationship with God is through His Son, and in His Son is neither Jew nor Gentile.
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openmind77
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Needless to say I don’t believe much of what is in the Old Testament (the New Testament is quite different). I can hardly understand why Christians still consider it sacred. It is easily the most violent religious text there is with a cruel, unjust and nasty God. To be ‘chosen’ by such God is like being a favorite child of an abusive parent.
However, a people that claims that they are in any way racially more special than others (and still believe that) are really a bit like white supremacists (although their motives or actions may be completely different). We should all not believe in a God who in any way discriminates on the basis of race - such a God would be arrested and prosecuted in the US.
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Kliska
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Gratefully God doesn’t play by the rules of man or Jesus, and the New Covenant, would not exist. The OT functions in several ways; showing that man can’t do it on his own, showing forth the prophecies of the Messiah, the preservation of the human line that would bring Him forth, and actually showing forth the knowledge of God to teach people how to live to be the “best” human to be via cleanliness laws, morality, showing the effects of not responding to God in trust and faith, etc…
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openmind77
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Actually I like Jews (at least those I have met in the US) - they are far more liberal than the average American. I am not suggesting that they personally claim any superiority, I am just questioning the belief in a racially biased God. As for the stuff about ‘chosen to serve’ etc - that is all rationalization. It is similar to talk of the ‘white man’s burden’ or ‘noblesse oblige’ - basically it is a claim of superiority.
In any case, all this stuff will be settled once and for all when the Christ Returns (which I expect to happen in the next few years) - we will find out just how non-discriminating, fair, just, unbiased and all-embracing God really is. Christians especially will be shocked to see him embrace atheists as lovingly as believers.
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judynurse
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Whenever someone talks about the Jews thinking they are “superior”, I remember the line from “Fiddler on the Roof”, where the poor dairyman in Eastern Europe, in Poland, I think, who was often the victim of pogroms. He looks up to Heaven and asks God “couldn’t You choose someone else for a change?” Seems like they got the short end of the stick in being “chosen” – God chose them to be “separate” and to serve Him only — not to be “superior” and they have paid for that for centuries, losing their country, being forced out of other countries and generally despised. Of course, much of the Diaspora was a result of disobedience to God. Would you feel very “superior” if you had been in Auschwitz? Not much of a reward for “superiority”!!! The more Orthodox Jews I have known even in the US certainly did not feel superior, just that they made a Covenant (or their ancestors did) and they must try to stick with it, whatever the cost to themselves and their families. The more Orthodox feel outside of the general population, and not very safe or comfortable with that feeling. They sure didn’t feel they were better than others, just bound to God by their Covenant. He chose them, now they have to live with it. By the way, it’s not a racial thing – the Arabs are also from Abraham’s first son, and racially they are mainly Caucasian, but related to all the Semitic peoples of the Middle East. They are a separate “people”, but NOT a separate “RACE”
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AbideWithMe
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No. Reading Luke 22:25-26 might help you understand better what being chosen to serve means. Jesus is talking of a radically different system of service based on God’s economy, not our human tendency to want to feel superior.
Openmind, for someone with your username, I’m guessing you value open mindedness rather than filtering everything through one’s preconceived understandings or limited experiences. But perhaps the latter is what you’re doing here, in comparing the “choseness” of Israel to what you already know, then calling it unfair. God can call a people “chosen” and mean by that someone much bigger and more loving than we can understand if we try to limit Him to what seems fair to us based on our previous experience.
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Tom_Baum
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First off, the Jews are not a race, they are a People.
Second, until Abraham the Jews did not exist, Abraham was the first Jew.
Third, being chosen does not mean that you are special or better than anyone else, it merely means that you are chosen.
That said, the Jews were chosen and set apart so that God could become Incarnate thru them and the Jews are still the Chosen People.
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Tom_Baum
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Actually, it was God Who both chose and formed the Chosen People.
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Tom_Baum
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I agree with you that many Christians, both denominational and non-denominational, will be quite shocked when they meet God.
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DelsonJacobs
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God’s calling the Jews to be his special people cannot have ended or been supplanted lest all Gentiles be lost.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that the Gentiles…
….discover Jesus and worship him as Son of God and Savior of the world only by turning towards the Jews and receiving from them the messianic promise as contained in the Old Testament. The Epiphany shows that “the full number of the nations” now takes its “place in the family of the patriarchs”, and acquires Israelitica dignitas (is made “worthy of the heritage of Israel”).–CCC 528.
If the Jews are not his chosen people, why is it Gentiles should be made worthy of their heritage? Doesn’t Scripture say that the root of God’s people Israel holds the wild olive branch in place? “You do not support the root,” Paul tells the Gentiles being incorporated into God’s chosen race, “the root supports you.”–Romans 11:18.
While in no way denying Christ as the only way to salvation, how this will occur has not yet been disclosed to the Church or any human being. “How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!” (Romans 11:33) Have you never read what else St. Paul said about the Jews?
They [the Jews] have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you [Gentiles] they also may receive mercy. For God has consigned all men to disobedience [Jew and Gentile], that he may have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God!–Romans 11:31-32.
It is written in Scripture that “all Israel will be saved,” and in reference to God’s calling the Jews to be his special people, “the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.”–Romans 11:26-29.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that the Gentiles…
….discover Jesus and worship him as Son of God and Savior of the world only by turning towards the Jews and receiving from them the messianic promise as contained in the Old Testament. The Epiphany shows that “the full number of the nations” now takes its “place in the family of the patriarchs”, and acquires Israelitica dignitas (is made “worthy of the heritage of Israel”).–CCC 528.
If the Jews are not his chosen people, why is it Gentiles should be made worthy of their heritage? Doesn’t Scripture say that the root of God’s people Israel holds the wild olive branch in place? “You do not support the root,” Paul tells the Gentiles being incorporated into God’s chosen race, “the root supports you.”–Romans 11:18.
While in no way denying Christ as the only way to salvation, how this will occur has not yet been disclosed to the Church or any human being. “How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!” (Romans 11:33) Have you never read what else St. Paul said about the Jews?
They [the Jews] have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you [Gentiles] they also may receive mercy. For God has consigned all men to disobedience [Jew and Gentile], that he may have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God!–Romans 11:31-32.
It is written in Scripture that “all Israel will be saved,” and in reference to God’s calling the Jews to be his special people, “the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.”–Romans 11:26-29.
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tonyfish58
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This Question has been answered in some detail in the writings of Baha’u’llah, sufficient to say that the Chosen People are those who except the Manifestation of God in Their Day, those who do not accept are of the fallen.
It is no easy feat do do away with past learning and Prejudices as this passage shows! This passage is about the time of Moses and the Time of Jesus and what people had to overcome to recognize the Word of God.
"And now, take heed, O brother! If such things be revealed in this Dispensation, and such incidents come to pass, at the present time, what would the people do? I swear by Him Who is the true Educator of mankind and the Revealer of the Word of God that the people would instantly and unquestionably pronounce Him an infidel and would sentence Him to death. How far are they from hearkening unto the voice that declareth: Lo! a Jesus hath appeared out of the breath of the Holy Ghost, and a Moses summoned to a divinely-appointed task! Were a myriad voices to be raised, no ear would listen if We said that upon a fatherless Child hath been conferred the mission of Prophethood, or that a murderer hath brought from the flame of the burning Bush the message of “Verily, verily, I am God!” reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-2.html
Regards Tony
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openmind77
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I am not sure I understand the difference between a people and a race. What sets them apart as a people, just their religion not their race or is it language?
I would say that if anyone claims they were chosen by God, they are claiming to be special.
It is also saying that God discriminates on the basis of a ‘people’ or a ‘language’?
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openmind77
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This the precise belief that I am questioning. You believe in it because the Old Testament says so, but I find OT rather difficult swallow. The OT is a book of violence and hatred and I do not believe for an instant that it is in any way the word of God.
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DelsonJacobs
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With all due respect to the wisdom found in the writings of Baha’u’llah, the person who asked the question was a Catholic and I believe the question was being asked from the unique perspective of Catholicism.
Since Catholics do not recognize the writings of Baha’u’llah or the accept the Bahá’í Faith, the answer you supply, though excellent and accurate from Bahá’í standards, will lack applicability.
There needs to be a general acceptance of authoritative sources if the answers we supply can be to any help or effect. Were I to offer a answer to a question of yours by quoting an authority that denies or goes contrary to the Bahá’í Faith, would it be of advantage for you to accept it? What if accepting the source was to go against what your faith teaches? Surely you would not want that to be asked of you, would you?
“Do not give what is holy to dogs,” is a saying of Jesus Christ that we follow. (Matthew 7:6) His words illustrate that someone might treat a holy offering with disrespect or not see the value in it, much as a dog cannot discern if what is offered to it is sacred or mundane. It would be helpful to first establish common grounds. If not, even the most valuable of life-saving information will be offered in vain.
Better to find something in common that you know Catholics believe in, otherwise you are asking us to prove unfaithful to our convictions and our Church.
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openmind77
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If you are looking for a unique Catholic perspective, you should not really be starting a thread in the ‘Non-Catholic’ section. Please let the moderate decide how each person should or should not answer a question. I don’t particularly subscribe to the Bahai view of things, but they are always welcome to express their opinion even it it is usually Bahaullah’s opinion they are stating.
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tonyfish58
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It was posted in Non Catholic Religion section and was a question about who are the Chosen People of God.
Thus the answer given is applicable from the Baha’i Perspective
Peace be with you - Regards Tony
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tonyfish58
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openmind77 - Must have been responding at the same time
God bless your openmind - Regards Tony
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DelsonJacobs
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I am a Roman Catholic, but I am also a Jew.
Of course I am speaking of my heritage when I say I am a Jew or Hebrew. I don’t practice Judaism, per se, but like people of other ethnic backgrounds I do have cultural differences and customs that make it very clear where me and my family come from.
We are not really a race. Jews considered themselves a tribe. We are people who recognize ourselves as descendents of Abraham, Issac and Jacob–either because we are literal children of Israel (it’s in my DNA which actually has markers that show I’m Hebrew) or we worship the God of Abraham as a member of Judaism.
But what makes someone special? If God chooses you are not another, are not you special in some sense?
When God chose Mary to be the mother of our Lord, did this not make her special? “Hail, full of grace! The Lord is with you.” (Luke 1:28) Did not the greeting of the angel Gabriel mean that Mary was highly favored? Did not her being conceived without sin make her special?
“You have found favor with God,” the angel tells Mary. (Luke 1;30) Even the saintly Elizabeth while carrying the unborn John the Baptist exclaimed: “Blessed are you among all women!” (Luke 1:42) Therefore be chosen by God makes you special.
Is this discrimination? Yes, it is. But you are making the word “discrimination” a negative thing, when used alone it doesn’t mean “unjust discrimination.” Have you never heard of someone who has a “discriminating eye” or “discriminating palate”? Are they being unjust because they have an ability to see things we don’t discern or to taste things in a way most cannot? These people can discriminate between that which is mundane and that which is special.
And what about God? If he chose Mary to be the Mother of our Lord, doesn’t this make her special? What about the people she came from? What other group of people gave us the Messiah? Did not God call them forth? Does not this make them special?
So what if God makes one people special over another? Who are you to argue? Is it not written: “Does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose and another for an ignoble one?” (Romans 9:21)
Yes, who indeed are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Will what is made say to its maker, ‘Why have you created me so?’" (Romans 9:20)
Again it is written: “What advantage is there then in being a Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? Much, in every respect. For in the first place, they were entrusted with the utterances of God.” (Romans 3:1-2) And again: “Has God rejected his people? Of course not! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew.” (Romans 11:1-2) To the Jews “belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; theirs the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, is the Messiah. God who is over all be blessed forever. Amen.”–Romans 9:4-5.
God will choose you if you choose God. And will discriminate when it comes to rewarding those who choose God and those who do not.
Or would you rather God not discern who is special to him?
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DelsonJacobs
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I didn’t say that he shouldn’t express his opinion or views.
On the contrary, I mentioned how wise his views are. I made the comment out of respect because I don’t think it would help without making the person who asked the original question appreciate the source.
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