Who is God's chosen people?

[judynurse]

I am not sure I understand the difference between a people and a race. What sets them apart as a people, just their religion not their race or is it language?

I would say that if anyone claims they were chosen by God, they are claiming to be special.

It is also saying that God discriminates on the basis of a ‘people’ or a ‘language’?

They were a tribe started by one family and one man who fathered the others, as well as those who were members of his household (his stewards, herders, etc…) a man named Abraham, who heard God speak, left his home city of Ur and went out as God had told him to do, taking his wife and all his household with him. He was a member of one of the (many) Semitic peoples living in tribal groups and small cities (we’d probably consider them small to medium-sized towns now). There are still a multitude of Semitic people living in the Middle East. They are called “Semitic” because the region they originally came from spoke languages which modern scholars call “Semitic”, which was similar only in region.

Abraham as a man was special only because when God spoke to him, he not only listened, but believed and obeyed all his life. That was the only “special” thing about him, but that in itself was pretty special, since the knowledge of God being the Only God, had been lost since the generations after Noah and the flood.

God did not discriminate on the basis of a ‘people’ or a ‘language’, but on the faith of one man, who taught all his household to honor one God alone. As for being a “superior” people, how so?? They lost their country, which God gave them, not once, but several times. They were enslaved by both the Egyptians and the Babylonians and Persians. They again lost their country’s government to Rome. They then had their Temple and major city of Jerusalem destroyed completely for at least the third time, leaving only one wall (the famous “Wailing Wall” in modern day Jerusalem - the only part of their last Temple left intact). They were then dispersed into “all the nations”, tried to keep the Laws and Faith they had been taught, and suffered pogroms and persecution wherever they went. Then they had millions of their people murdered under the Nazis. (Auschwitz, anyone?)

If this is an arrogance of being “special” and “chosen”, I think most people would say “NO THANKS!!” Yet, God did choose Abraham, because Abraham CHOSE to believe, and HE chose God. His descendants, the modern-day Jews, are still the “chosen of God” because of that inheirited deposit of faith. Because of that faith, God sent His Son, the Jewish Messiah, to save all people. If they had not kept their faith up until that time, He would not have had the deposit of faith and the writings to teach as a basis. God is not finished with His people Israel yet. And He isn’t finished with us, either. We are now also “chosen” by Christ, and by faith, just as Abraham was. We can choose to believe or not. We still have free will. But just how “special” or arrogant has the journey through the centuries been for this “chosen” people? Despised, cast out, beaten, murdered by the thousands, and yet they still hold to their belief. Respect them for that at least.

 

[tonyfish58]

I didn’t say that he shouldn’t express his opinion or views.

On the contrary, I mentioned how wise his views are. I made the comment out of respect because I don’t think it would help without making the person who asked the original question appreciate the source.

Thank you for the clarity of the reply

I always like to consider that all have the Capacity to know and Love God. As to how much knowledge one has in relation to that is not known until the situation is raised. The answer supplied may indeed be just that bit of information the poster was after, or as you have suggested might not.

This is more or less what you are trying to impart to me as follow;

"…How great the multitude of truths which the garment of words can never contain! How vast the number of such verities as no expression can adequately describe, whose significance can never be unfolded, and to which not even the remotest allusions can be made! How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the appointed time is come! Even as it hath been said: “Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who hear it.” reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-89.html

Regards Tony

 

[DelsonJacobs]

It was posted in Non Catholic Religion section and was a question about who are the Chosen People of God.

Thus the answer given is applicable from the Baha’i Perspective

Peace be with you - Regards Tony

No disrespect was intended, nor was I saying your answer was not applicable from your unique religious perspective.

On the contrary, I wrote in reference to your words that “someone might treat a holy offering with disrespect or not see the value in it, much as a dog cannot discern if what is offered to it is sacred or mundane. It would be helpful to first establish common grounds. If not, even the most valuable of life-saving information will be offered in vain.”

The intention was that you might want to first establish a common ground lest someone view your answer as unworthy of being posted.

 

[tonyfish58]

No disrespect was intended, nor was I saying your answer was not applicable from your unique religious perspective.

On the contrary, I wrote in reference to your words that “someone might treat a holy offering with disrespect or not see the value in it, much as a dog cannot discern if what is offered to it is sacred or mundane. It would be helpful to first establish common grounds. If not, even the most valuable of life-saving information will be offered in vain.”

The intention was that you might want to first establish a common ground lest someone view your answer as unworthy of being posted.

Noted Replied to as you were doing this, thus see above

Regards Tony

 

[judynurse]

My post above the last few was intended to answer the original question regarding the “chosen” people from an historical as well as a religious perspective, while not being specifically Catholic, but also from a Christian perspective, as well as a Jewish one.

I too, am a child of Israel.

 

[Moses613]

I did not realize someone could convert to Judaism and then become one of the ‘chosen’ people. I thought to emigrate to Israel as a Jew, you need to have at least one Jewish parent or grandparent, that conversion is not enough. But I could be wrong.

A gentile with no Jewish lineage at all can automatically qualify for Israeli citizenship if he was converted through a rabbinical court approved by the Chief Rabbinate of Israel.

 

[Moses613]

Actually I like Jews (at least those I have met in the US) - they are far more liberal than the average American. I am not suggesting that they personally claim any superiority, I am just questioning the belief in a racially biased God.

Oh, you wouldn’t like me. I’m strongly conservative, sorry. Actually I think the Jewish divide is, unfortunately, about 80%-20% liberal-conservative. Jews who threw off their ancestral religion (a high percentage) had to adopt the “religion” of liberalism.

God is not racially biased, God forbid. All mankind was created in His image. However, the rabbis taught that when He called to humanity to bind themselves to Him with an everlasting covenant, only the children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were willing to do so. Nevertheless, His mercy is infinite, and any human being at any time can choose to join the Jewish People - which is NOT A RACE - and accept the covenant upon himself.

 

[judynurse]

I have also spoken to a number of Jews who really don’t follow their faith, but have adopted liberalism, humanism, etc… I think it’s a pity, since the original Orthodox Judaic Faith is so beautiful, – very strict, but for a reason. The reason is to remain separate from the people around them. I still believe they will accept Jesus someday as the true Messiah, but as the Rabbi who taught me to speak and read Hebrew when I was 16 said:
“When He comes, we’ll ask Him is this your first or second trip here?” Stopped all the comments about a Christian being in the Hebrew class with all the Jews.

Too bad most of Eretz Yisrael has mostly gone liberal. Finally return to the Land given by God to Abraham and Moses and they throw away His commandments and Law!!!------ pathetic.

One thing I’ll never forget - ever – the sound of the Shofar on Yom Kippur.

 

[openmind77]

They were a tribe started by one family and one man who fathered the others, as well as those who were members of his household (his stewards, herders, etc…) a man named Abraham, who heard God speak, left his home city of Ur and went out as God had told him to do, taking his wife and all his household with him. He was a member of one of the (many) Semitic peoples living in tribal groups and small cities (we’d probably consider them small to medium-sized towns now). There are still a multitude of Semitic people living in the Middle East. They are called “Semitic” because the region they originally came from spoke languages which modern scholars call “Semitic”, which was similar only in region.

Abraham as a man was special only because when God spoke to him, he not only listened, but believed and obeyed all his life. That was the only “special” thing about him, but that in itself was pretty special, since the knowledge of God being the Only God, had been lost since the generations after Noah and the flood.

God did not discriminate on the basis of a ‘people’ or a ‘language’, but on the faith of one man, who taught all his household to honor one God alone. As for being a “superior” people, how so?? They lost their country, which God gave them, not once, but several times. They were enslaved by both the Egyptians and the Babylonians and Persians. They again lost their country’s government to Rome. They then had their Temple and major city of Jerusalem destroyed completely for at least the third time, leaving only one wall (the famous “Wailing Wall” in modern day Jerusalem - the only part of their last Temple left intact). They were then dispersed into “all the nations”, tried to keep the Laws and Faith they had been taught, and suffered pogroms and persecution wherever they went. Then they had millions of their people murdered under the Nazis. (Auschwitz, anyone?)

If this is an arrogance of being “special” and “chosen”, I think most people would say “NO THANKS!!” Yet, God did choose Abraham, because Abraham CHOSE to believe, and HE chose God. His descendants, the modern-day Jews, are still the “chosen of God” because of that inheirited deposit of faith. Because of that faith, God sent His Son, the Jewish Messiah, to save all people. If they had not kept their faith up until that time, He would not have had the deposit of faith and the writings to teach as a basis. God is not finished with His people Israel yet. And He isn’t finished with us, either. We are now also “chosen” by Christ, and by faith, just as Abraham was. We can choose to believe or not. We still have free will. But just how “special” or arrogant has the journey through the centuries been for this “chosen” people? Despised, cast out, beaten, murdered by the thousands, and yet they still hold to their belief. Respect them for that at least.

I did not mean to minimize the suffering of the Jewish people at all. The issue I have is claiming to have a special relationship with God because HE chose to have it. This means God discriminates and picks favorites - I guess my issue is really with God then, if he indeed chose in such a way

 

[openmind77]

A gentile with no Jewish lineage at all can automatically qualify for Israeli citizenship if he was converted through a rabbinical court approved by the Chief Rabbinate of Israel.

Sorry my mistake.

I think I am beginning to understand. When you say Jews are the Chosen people, you are really saying Judaism is the Chosen Religion (since anyone can become one of the chosen by adopting the religion and if a Jew becomes a Christian, he then is no longer chosen).

That is actually acceptable, because everyone thinks their religion is the chosen religion (except Hindus maybe - we think most religions are equal).

There is nothing wrong in thinking yours is the chosen religion - everyone believes the same.

 

[judynurse]

Actually, openmind77, God didn’t choose a people. God spoke to Abraham and Abraham CHOSE to listen, believe, and obey. Because he did, he, his household and his descendants became the tribes of Israel a few centuries later. God may have spoken to other men, we don’t know, as there are no records left to tell us, but apparently they didn’t choose to believe & obey, or perhaps they chose not to listen. They didn’t want to leave their nice homes, perhaps also in the city of Ur, or other, nearby cities, their riches, and their families (parents, aunts, uncles, etc…) Abraham was convinced that the One who spoke to him was truly the Only God, and so he packed up everything, took his wife, household, flocks, servants, herders, all he owned, sold the rest & purchased tents, and traveling food and equipment, got camels enough for all, as well as donkeys, and headed in the direction God had told him to go. His nephew went with him, his wife probably gave him heck, because Abraham had a lot of money and she married him, lived in a city with a nice home, and now she was going to spend years traveling and living in a tent! God can choose someone, but that person has to decide for themselves whether to listen, believe, and obey! That isn’t always easy.

Mary was betrothed, was only about 13 years old, probably was planning a life with a lot of children and a home near her parents. She was also very devoutly religious. SHE CHOSE to say “yes” and was pregnant by a miracle of God, no husband, and her betrothed spouse (fiancée) didn’t even believe her! Yet, although the penalty for being with child and without a husband was stoning to death, she trusted that it was truly God speaking to her, and obeyed willingly, trusting God to make it all work out right.

God often tells individuals (perhaps not with a spoken/heard Voice), but in the quiet of their hearts to leave and do what He tells them to do – to become a monk, a hermit, a Priest, a cloistered nun, a Sister working in the slums with lepers or AIDS victims. It is up to them whether they will be “chosen” or will say “no, I have my life planned already, and I’m going to do things my way”. They also can say “yes” and take the hard path, often losing the closeness of their families, who simply don’t understand why they suddenly chose to do something so strange, instead of getting rich, or a bigger house, or whatever. God calls, it is up to the individual to CHOOSE to follow God or not.

Because Abraham chose to believe and obey, his descendants became the “chosen people”, but each one of them still has to choose individually whether to follow God or to follow the world. Each descendant of Abraham still has to choose when they are close to being an adult, or after they are an adult. That’s why so many modern Jews, in America, Europe and Israel are now liberals, humanists or even agnostic or atheist. They CHOSE not to follow God. They may be Hebrew by DNA, but they are not among the “chosen” anymore, unless they come back to God.

It’s the same with the Christian Faith. You can choose to follow Jesus and take the hard path, or choose to live your own way and “do your own thing”. Many of those who choose to follow their own path have great jobs, lots of money, nice families, but they are empty inside. Somehow, they all know they are missing something in life. They always have that empty place inside where there is no happiness deep inside. That place inside us is what God gave us – the desire to know Him. But He gave us Free Will, and He undoubtedly mourns for those who turn their backs to Him, when He has given everything for them, including His Son. So, they keep reaching for more “things” and don’t know why they aren’t content and happy in that deep part of themselves. Better to choose the hard road, and find Eternal happiness. You can’t take your money, big house and social standing with you. When you are in your coffin, you are now alone. And you will face God alone, to tell Him why you CHOSE not to follow him. “What does it profit you to gain the whole world, and lose your soul (eternal life with God)?”

 

[Kliska]

I did not mean to minimize the suffering of the Jewish people at all. The issue I have is claiming to have a special relationship with God because HE chose to have it. This means God discriminates and picks favorites - I guess my issue is really with God then, if he indeed chose in such a way

In a crude/metaphorical fashion, God is walking around with a contract and whoever signs it, becomes the “chosen people.” There is a tradition (maybe upthread somewhere) that He offered the contract to others and they turned it down, the Israelites said yes, and signed. When they signed, others could too by converting to Judaism if they wished.

This is why we believe there is a New Contract offered and everyone can sign; this time if you agree to it, you become a new creature in Jesus.

I see you still have a problem with the OT, but do you not see that if there is no OT, there is no NT?

 

[petra22]

I did not mean to minimize the suffering of the Jewish people at all. The issue I have is claiming to have a special relationship with God because HE chose to have it. This means God discriminates and picks favorites - I guess my issue is really with God then, if he indeed chose in such a way

It seems like God chose Noah and his family… but all of Noah’s family did not choose God. God puts the invitation out there, but all of men/women do not choose to answer the invitation… I think we should not blame God for choosing a people but blame the PEOPLE who refused the invitation… and there are and were many! IMHO

 

[openmind77]

…
I see you still have a problem with the OT, but do you not see that if there is no OT, there is no NT?

The NT is because of Jesus. The incarnation of Jesus to have happened there was no need for the OT to exist. The Father chose the middle east for Jesus to incarnate in for I am sure were many good reasons. To supersede the OT may have been one of them.

 

[Kliska]

The NT is because of Jesus. The incarnation of Jesus to have happened there was no need for the OT to exist. The Father chose the middle east for Jesus to incarnate in for I am sure were many good reasons. To supersede the OT may have been one of them.

If you believe that Jesus is who He claims to be, then there is reliance on the NT manuscripts and contents, and the NT directly relies on the OT. The writers, and Christ Himself, quoted and used the OT scriptures as thought they were the word of God as well as the NT. There’s no getting around the connection and the building from the Old to the New. If you read the book of Revelation it also shows what a warrior the Lord is. Do we discount the words of the NT as well that we don’t personally like?

I’m asking this sincerely, and I say that because tone doesn’t convey through the screen.

 

[openmind77]

Actually, openmind77, God didn’t choose a people. … God calls, it is up to the individual to CHOOSE to follow God or not… That’s why so many modern Jews, in America, Europe and Israel are now liberals, humanists or even agnostic or atheist. They CHOSE not to follow God. They may be Hebrew by DNA, but they are not among the “chosen” anymore, unless they come back to God… And you will face God alone, to tell Him why you CHOSE not to follow him. “What does it profit you to gain the whole world, and lose your soul (eternal life with God)?”

In a crude/metaphorical fashion, God is walking around with a contract and whoever signs it, becomes the “chosen people.” There is a tradition (maybe upthread somewhere) that He offered the contract to others and they turned it down, the Israelites said yes, and signed. When they signed, others could too by converting to Judaism if they wished.

This is why we believe there is a New Contract offered and everyone can sign; this time if you agree to it, you become a new creature in Jesus…

OK, lets get this straight.

The ‘chosen people’ are determined not by race and not by ‘people’ (I assume a people are those set apart by location, language or culture as opposed to race), but by those who have accepted ‘the Contract’ with God. The choice is not God’s but made by the individual - definitely not by race (which would be illegal in the US)

So I could remain a Hindu and accept this ‘Contract’ and become one of the ‘chosen’? (I like that)

And could you remain a Catholic and accept this ‘Contract’ and become one of the ‘chosen’? Then you can no longer say Jews are God’s chosen people.

Or are only those who have already accepted the ‘Contract’ and their children/descendents the only ‘chosen’ ones? This means only Jews by birth (like Brahmins) and new converts are not included.

Or are those who have already accepted the ‘Contract’ and as well as new converts to Judaism the ‘Chosen’? This means only orthodox Jews following Judaism strictly are the ‘chosen’ ones (Liberal/secular Jews are excluded). This is just saying Judaism is the chosen religion.. I think this is the real meaning of ‘the Chosen’

 

[openmind77]

If you believe that Jesus is who He claims to be, then there is reliance on the NT manuscripts and contents, and the NT directly relies on the OT. The writers, and Christ Himself, quoted and used the OT scriptures as thought they were the word of God as well as the NT. There’s no getting around the connection and the building from the Old to the New. If you read the book of Revelation it also shows what a warrior the Lord is. Do we discount the words of the NT as well that we don’t personally like?

I’m asking this sincerely, and I say that because tone doesn’t convey through the screen.

Sorry, this is moving away from the topic too much.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

I know God chose the people of Israel as His people. I know it’s not exactly that way anymore I’m just confused as to who are His people today.

Does that make sense? I want to know more about this. I don’t understand it.

All the Children of Abraham are God’s Chosen. Anyone who believes in Christ also in turn be-
comes a child of Abraham. Even the Jews who don’t believe in Christ, somehow, someway, I
believe God has a way to save them as well.“I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not become wise [in] your own estimation: a hardening has come
upon Israel in part, until the full number of the Gentiles comes in, and thus all Israel will be saved, as it is written: ‘The deliverer will come out
of Zion, He will turn away godlessness from Jacob; and this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins’.”

• (Rm 11:25-27)

 

[Kliska]

OK, lets get this straight.

There are multiple contracts with God throughout history. That is why we refer to the Old Testament and the New Testament. There’s a certain action that can totally fulfill the old and that is walking this earth in a completely perfect manner. Jesus is the only one to fulfill the contract, and He then instituted a new contract.

The ‘chosen people’ are determined not by race and not by ‘people’ (I assume a people are those set apart by location, language or culture as opposed to race), but by those who have accepted ‘the Contract’ with God. The choice is not God’s but made by the individual - definitely not by race (which would be illegal in the US)

So I could remain a Hindu and accept this ‘Contract’ and become one of the ‘chosen’? (I like that)

Talking OT here? Yes, though it would include things like affirming the commandments of God that are a part of the contract and living it out, which is now impossible in actuality because of things like the temple not being there. Jesus is the once and for all sacrifice that fulfills the old covenant.

And could you remain a Catholic and accept this ‘Contract’ and become one of the ‘chosen’? Then you can no longer say Jews are God’s chosen people.

God still has certain promises to keep to those who signed the old contract as a group. Right now, in this age of grace we are under the new covenant Jesus established. You “sign on the dotted line” by faithing on Jesus. If you do that you are a part of the Church, and are a part of the bride of Christ. Anyone can faithe on Jesus. Someone who is already Christian that believes on Christ would not want to try to convert to Judaism as that would be disregarding Jesus’ fulfillment.

BTW, that is one of the things Paul preached against in the NT. There were groups of “Judaizers” who tried to get the converts to Christianity to follow the old law. That’s a no-no.

Or are only those who have already accepted the ‘Contract’ and their children/descendents the only ‘chosen’ ones? This means only Jews by birth (like Brahmins) and new converts are not included.

You’ve lost me; you can still convert to Judaism, that would be claiming the old covenant was still efficacious though it isn’t now that the new has come. OR you can convert to Christianity that represents the New Covenant. Unfortunately if you choose the old covenant you become trapped in sin, because you are rejecting Christ as your sacrifice.

Or are those who have already accepted the ‘Contract’ and as well as new converts to Judaism the ‘Chosen’? This means only orthodox Jews following Judaism strictly are the ‘chosen’ ones (Liberal/secular Jews are excluded). This is just saying Judaism is the chosen religion.

If you were to convert to Judaism, it is seen as you converting to the “tribe” so to speak. That is why converts that meet certain requirements are allowed into Israel as citizens.

 

[openmind77]

There are multiple contracts with God throughout history. That is why we refer to the Old Testament and the New Testament. There’s a certain action that can totally fulfill the old and that is walking this earth in a completely perfect manner. Jesus is the only one to fulfill the contract, and He then instituted a new contract.

Talking OT here? Yes, though it would include things like affirming the commandments of God that are a part of the contract and living it out, which is now impossible in actuality because of things like the temple not being there. Jesus is the once and for all sacrifice that fulfills the old covenant.

God still has certain promises to keep to those who signed the old contract as a group. Right now, in this age of grace we are under the new covenant Jesus established. You “sign on the dotted line” by faithing on Jesus. If you do that you are a part of the Church, and are a part of the bride of Christ. Anyone can faithe on Jesus. Someone who is already Christian that believes on Christ would not want to try to convert to Judaism as that would be disregarding Jesus’ fulfillment.

BTW, that is one of the things Paul preached against in the NT. There were groups of “Judaizers” who tried to get the converts to Christianity to follow the old law. That’s a no-no.

You’ve lost me; you can still convert to Judaism, that would be claiming the old covenant was still efficacious though it isn’t now that the new has come. OR you can convert to Christianity that represents the New Covenant. Unfortunately if you choose the old covenant you become trapped in sin, because you are rejecting Christ as your sacrifice.

If you were to convert to Judaism, it is seen as you converting to the “tribe” so to speak. That is why converts that meet certain requirements are allowed into Israel as citizens.

I think you have created a new definition:

Christians and Jews are together the Chosen People of God. Jews by the Old Contract and Christians by the New Contract.

I could become one of the ‘Chosen’ by converting to either religion.

However, the New Contract is preferable to the Old Contract which very likely is not valid any more.(If the Old Contract is still valid than your evangelical statement would be: Come to either Christianity or Judaism and be saved!)

Does that summarize your position?