Who is God's chosen people?

[openmind77]

Not ambiguous at all; you need Jesus as Saviour, In the church age (now) God is working directly with the church, and anyone who comes to Him is part of the body of Christ, and the only group to truly call God “Our Father” and mean it in a literal adoptive sense. The Israelites to whom the promises will be kept in the future will be recognizing Him as Messiah. If you die before then you’re not going to be in a good spot.

God will save them as a people group at a future point, but not necessarily as individuals, there are still requirements to be met by individuals. The relationship of the Israelites to God is a different relationship than the Christians to God.

Wait a minute! Maybe I misunderstand what you are saying - are you telling me that Jews are God’s Chosen People, but they are not eligible for being ‘saved’ like most other Christians?

So for entering heaven, are Jews kind of in line behind all Christians (the repentant ones), but ahead of other faiths or something?

That this ‘chosenness’ will only be useful at some future date and probably not for the current generation?

 

[judynurse]

Wait a minute! Maybe I misunderstand what you are saying - are you telling me that Jews are God’s Chosen People, but they are not eligible for being ‘saved’ like most other Christians?

So for entering heaven, are Jews kind of in line behind all Christians (the repentant ones), but ahead of other faiths or something?

That this ‘chosenness’ will only be useful at some future date and probably not for the current generation?

I feel like this discussion makes a lovely circle – it just goes around and around, and ends up biting its own tail!

 

[daler]

Wait a minute! Maybe I misunderstand what you are saying - are you telling me that Jews are God’s Chosen People, but they are not eligible for being ‘saved’ like most other Christians?

So for entering heaven, are Jews kind of in line behind all Christians (the repentant ones), but ahead of other faiths or something?

That this ‘chosenness’ will only be useful at some future date and probably not for the current generation?

openmind,

. I am enjoying your reasoning on recent posts…

. Have you read the Pope’s recent statements?

POPE FRANCIS CONDEMNS RACISM AND DECLARES THAT “ALL RELIGIONS ARE TRUE” AT HISTORIC THIRD VATICAN COUNCIL

December 5, 2013 · by Diversity Chronicle · in Christians, Homophobia, Immigration, Intolerance, Islamophobia,The War On Women

For the last six months, Catholic cardinals, bishops and theologians have been deliberating in Vatican City, discussing the future of the church and redefining long-held Catholic doctrines and dogmas. The Third Vatican Council, is undoubtedly the largest and most important since the Second Vatican Council was concluded in 1962. Pope Francis convened the new council to “finally finish the work of the Second Vatican Council.” While some traditionalists and conservative reactionaries on the far right have decried these efforts, they have delighted progressives around the world.

The Third Vatican Council concluded today with Pope Francis announcing that Catholicism is now a “modern and reasonable religion, which has undergone evolutionary changes. The time has come to abandon all intolerance. We must recognize that religious truth evolves and changes. Truth is not absolute or set in stone. Even atheists acknowledge the divine. Through acts of love and charity the atheist acknowledges God as well, and redeems his own soul, becoming an active participant in the redemption of humanity.”

“Through humility, soul searching, and prayerful contemplation we have gained a new understanding of certain dogmas. The church no longer believes in a literal hell where people suffer. This doctrine is incompatible with the infinite love of God. God is not a judge but a friend and a lover of humanity. God seeks not to condemn but only to embrace. Like the fable of Adam and Eve, we see hell as a literary device. Hell is merely a metaphor for the isolated soul, which like all souls ultimately will be united in love with God” Pope Francis declared.

In a speech that shocked many, the Pope claimed “All religions are true, because they are true in the hearts of all those who believe in them. What other kind of truth is there? In the past, the church has been harsh on those it deemed morally wrong or sinful. Today, we no longer judge. Like a loving father, we never condemn our children. Our church is big enough for heterosexuals and homosexuals, for the pro-life and the pro-choice! For conservatives and liberals, even communists are welcome and have joined us. We all love and worship the same God.”

One statement in the Pope’s speech has sent traditionalists into a fit of confusion and hysteria. “God is changing and evolving as we are, For God lives in us and in our hearts. When we spread love and kindness in the world, we touch our own divinity and recognize it. The Bible is a beautiful holy book, but like all great and ancient works, some passages are outdated. Some even call for intolerance or judgement. The time has come to see these verses as later interpolations, contrary to the message of love and truth, which otherwise radiates through scripture. In accordance with our new understanding, we will begin to ordain women as cardinals, bishops and priests. In the future, it is my hope that we will have a woman pope one day. Let no door be closed to women that is open to men!”

 

[judynurse]

Are you aware that this was a satirical news post?? There IS NO THIRD VATICAN COUNCIL GOING ON AT PRESENT. This was done as a satire and is not an actual news story, nor were these things ever said by the Church leaders or the Pope! There was also no “Third Vatican Council” in Dec. 2013, either.

 

[MartinJordan]

Are you aware that this was a satirical news post?? There IS NO THIRD VATICAN COUNCIL GOING ON AT PRESENT. This was done as a satire and is not an actual news story, nor were these things ever said by the Church leaders or the Pope! There was also no “Third Vatican Council” in Dec. 2013, either.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11525352&postcount=3

diversitychronicle.wordpress.com/disclaimer/

:hypno:

MJ

 

[daler]

Are you aware that this was a satirical news post?? There IS NO THIRD VATICAN COUNCIL GOING ON AT PRESENT. This was done as a satire and is not an actual news story, nor were these things ever said by the Church leaders or the Pope! There was also no “Third Vatican Council” in Dec. 2013, either.

Judy,
No, I did not know this. I am extremely grateful to you for the correction. From what I have heard in the past few months Pope Francis is extremely genuine, loved by all.
Someone sent me this “news” post yesterday and I will report back to him that this was false. Again, thank you.

God bless,
Dale

 

[judynurse]

This “story” has shown up on several threads lately, and has been noted as a satirical piece done to make fun of the Vatican – by a comedic writer, I suppose! Pass the word on if you run into it again. It is not real news, and it didn’t happen. God Bless!

 

[Kaninchen]

Saved from ‘what’? You haven’t been following Christian preaching?

At least if you are on these forums, you should know what ‘saved’ means.

I was rather reminding you that Jews don’t share the Christian concept - in terms of an afterlife, we don’t believe people are disadvantaged by not believing as we do.

However, I think Jews are exceptions because they are the ‘Chosen’ - you will be saved (ie allowed into heaven) because you are one of the ‘Chosen’ ones (of course only after the proper judgement and repentance of your sins)

The realization that blaming/punishing us etc had gotten completely out of hand is relatively recent so the theology of this seems somewhat blurred.

Generally speaking, I think that the idea that, even if you’re a Christian, unless you accept the teaching of whichever branch of Christianity you’re dealing with, you’re quite possibly going to end up in a bad place is still pretty common so the non-Christian rest of us are in some jeopardy, to say the least.

 

[daler]

This “story” has shown up on several threads lately, and has been noted as a satirical piece done to make fun of the Vatican – by a comedic writer, I suppose! Pass the word on if you run into it again. It is not real news, and it didn’t happen. God Bless!

Dear Judy,
Again, thank you for the correction. I reported the error to a moderator for CAF requesting that the post be deleted, if possible, extending my sincere apologies.
Also, after contacting the source from which the information came to me, I was assured that corrective action was taken to notify recipients such as myself and others.
It is rather embarrassing, you know, to yourself in a position of naivety pertaining to something as important as the statement of the Pope. So sorry for any bad feelings that may have been caused by the post.
With highest regards,
Dale

 

[Kliska]

Wait a minute! Maybe I misunderstand what you are saying - are you telling me that Jews are God’s Chosen People, but they are not eligible for being ‘saved’ like most other Christians?

If they put their faith in Jesus Christ, they most certainly are.

So for entering heaven, are Jews kind of in line behind all Christians (the repentant ones), but ahead of other faiths or something?

Pre-Jesus, the Jews held the most direct and complete deposit of faith. Jesus is the Messiah they waited for (from our perspective), so now part of that faith should be to faithe on Jesus Christ for salvation.

That this ‘chosenness’ will only be useful at some future date and probably not for the current generation?

My branch of protestant Christianity believes that God will restore His direct relationship with Israel after the church age (the current age) has ended. Not all Christians believe that, and that type of belief is usually called “replacement theology” because the view is that the church has replaced Israel permanently and inherits all the promises made to Israel.

Regardless, once the gospel message of Jesus came, all (Jew and Gentile) are expected to trust Him for salvation.

 

[openmind77]

If they put their faith in Jesus Christ, they most certainly are.

Pre-Jesus, the Jews held the most direct and complete deposit of faith. Jesus is the Messiah they waited for (from our perspective), so now part of that faith should be to faithe on Jesus Christ for salvation.

My branch of protestant Christianity believes that God will restore His direct relationship with Israel after the church age (the current age) has ended. Not all Christians believe that, and that type of belief is usually called “replacement theology” because the view is that the church has replaced Israel permanently and inherits all the promises made to Israel.

Regardless, once the gospel message of Jesus came, all (Jew and Gentile) are expected to trust Him for salvation.

I think I can now summarize for the OP:

The Jews are the "Chosen People’ but definitely not because of their race. Anyone (like some Asian from Cambodia) can become one of the ‘Chosen’ by converting to Judaism. So it is really a ‘Chosen’ religion rather than people by race or language or culture.

However, no Jew however ‘Chosen’ he may be, is eligible for salvation unless he accepts Jesus as his Savior.

Christians are also among the ‘Chosen’ people since the coming of Jesus.

However after this age over, the Jews born then will be ‘Chosen’ as well as ‘saved’ (but this belief is debatable, so don’t count on it). No clue here if Christians will still be among the ‘Chosen’ in that age.

The rest of us are just chopped liver

 

[Kliska]

The rest of us are just chopped liver

You are answerable for the knowledge you possess and your response to it. In short, you’ve been informed of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and now it’s up to you whether to believe it or not.

 

[PRmerger]

You are answerable for the knowledge you possess and your response to it. In short, you’ve been informed of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and now it’s up to you whether to believe it or not.

 

[JoJoWasAMan]

A note should be made here.

On the basis of the Catholic Church’s teaching in “The Jewish People and Their Sacred Scriptures in the Christian Bible,” published by the Pontifical Biblical Commission, such an interpretation is not a part of Roman Catholic theology.

The above interpretation has a long anti-Semitic history which the Church, as recently as Pope Francis, strongly condemns.

As “The Jewish People and Their Sacred Scriptures” explains:

Regarding the “so-called Jews” mentioned in two parallel passages (2:9 and 3:9), the author rejects their pretensions and calls them a “synagogue of Satan”. In 2:9, these “so-called Jews” are accused of defaming the Christian community of Smyrna. In 3:9, Christ announces that they will be compelled to pay homage to the Christians of Philadelphia. These passages suggest that Christians are denying the title of Jew to the Israelites who defame them, and range themselves on the side of Satan, “the accuser of our brothers” (Rv 12:10). There is a then positive appreciation of “Jew” as a title of honour, an honour that is denied to a synagogue which is actively hostile to Christians.

They are not in reference to the Jews at large to a persecuting group that was not acting like Jews and not adhering to strict purity laws that even Jewish-Christians still observed. --See The Jewish Annotated New Testament, NRSV, “So Called Jews and Their Synagogues of Satan,” Amy-Jill Levine and Marc Zvi Brettler, Editors, Oxford Press.

"such an interpretation is not a part of Roman Catholic theology.

The above interpretation has a long anti-Semitic history which the Church, as recently as Pope Francis, strongly condemns.

"

Respectfully Delsen, I think you misinterpreted my meaning. I believe the condemnation as false Jews was directed at those who failed to act in the Spirit of God. And the true Jews are those who do so act. And the Spirit of God is Charity. It has a lot less to do with ancestry or affiliation and a lot more to do with spirit and conduct. Those who persecuted the Church were false Jews. The true Jews in the time of Jesus all converted to the New Way. Including Nicodemus, a Pharisee, as well as Paul, another Pharisee.

According to strict Roman Catholic theology, it is the Church that is the true Israel, the true Jews. Any who in the First Century when the Book of Revelation was written, continued to remain aloof from the new Church, were in fact openly hostile towards her. There was no indifference in those days. “Whoever is not with Me is against Me.”

I have simply stated, in the spirit of more than one Saint, that the true Church — i.e. People of God — is those who love. That includes not only Catholics but Jews, Buddhists, Atheists, Wiccans, etc., etc., etc. — all who love.

God is Love.

Peace!

P.S. To be clear, I am NOT advocating indifferentism. I am simply stating that Love’s Judgment is based on love, not any other consideration. Which should be obvious if you think about it.

 

[PRmerger]

I have simply stated, in the spirit of more than one Saint, that the true Church — i.e. People of God — is those who love. That includes not only Catholics but Jews, Buddhists, Atheists, Wiccans, etc., etc., etc. — all who love.

God is Love.

Peace!

P.S. To be clear, I am NOT advocating indifferentism. I am simply stating that Love’s Judgment is based on love, not any other consideration. Which should be obvious if you think about it.

Yes, God is love.

But that is not the only doctrine which must be embraced in order to join Him here on earth as well as in heaven.

We must embrace the Truths of God’s revelation** in their entirety.**

 

[DelsonJacobs]

"such an interpretation is not a part of Roman Catholic theology.

The above interpretation has a long anti-Semitic history which the Church, as recently as Pope Francis, strongly condemns.

"

Respectfully Delsen, I think you misinterpreted my meaning…

According to strict Roman Catholic theology, it is the Church that is the true Israel, the true Jews. Any who in the First Century when the Book of Revelation was written, continued to remain aloof from the new Church, were in fact openly hostile towards her. There was no indifference in those days. “Whoever is not with Me is against Me.”

My sincerest apologies regarding any mistake I may have made. I was not challenging your personal understanding on the matter or your personal convictions. That was not my intention.

I was attempting to correct the mistake many make in claiming that the Catholic Church believes in replacement theology, namely that the Church is “the true Israel, the true Jews.” This is not true.

Again, the Pontifical Biblical Commission states in “The Jewish People and Their Sacred Scriptures in the Christian Bible”:

God has not “rejected his people” (Romans 11:1). This people continues to be “holy”, that is, in close relationship with God. It is holy because it comes from a holy root, the ancestors, and because their “first fruits” have been blessed (Romans 11:16).

“As regards the Gospel they are enemies of God for your sake;
as regards election they are beloved, for the sake of their ancestors;
for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable” (Romans 11:28-29)…

The break between the Jewish people and the Church of Christ Jesus could sometimes, in certain times and places, give the impression of being complete. In the light of the Scriptures, this should never have occurred. For a complete break between Church and Synagogue contradicts Sacred Scripture.

Pope Francis in “Evangelii Gaudium” expressed regret for past and on going anti-Jewish actions, including the misunderstanding that the Jews have somehow been replaced by the Church and their covenant revoked.

“Dialogue and friendship with the children of Israel are part of the life of Jesus’ disciples,” writes the Pope. “The friendship which has grown between us makes us bitterly and sincerely regret the terrible persecutions which they have endured, and continue to endure, especially those that have involved Christians.”

The Catholic Church holds “the Jewish people in special regard because" as the Holy Father tells us, "their covenant with God has never been revoked.”–Evangelii Gaudium.

Of course you are entitled to hold to your personal interpretation on matters. I don’t challenge what you personal hold true and sincerely believe. The Church’s authentic teaching as expressed in writing is all I am speaking about here.

There is a difference between personal conviction and official statement.

 

[openmind77]

You are answerable for the knowledge you possess and your response to it. In short, you’ve been informed of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and now it’s up to you whether to believe it or not.

Actually I do believe in Jesus as a Son of God. But that is probably not good enough to be ‘Chosen’ since I am not a baptized Christian.

But then, Jews are all ‘Chosen’, but not good enough to be ‘Saved’ (if they don’t believe in Jesus).

I wonder if I am ahead of Jews in the consideration for God’s infinite mercy or behind?

 

[PRmerger]

Actually I do believe in Jesus as a Son of God. But that is probably not good enough to be ‘Chosen’ since I am not a baptized Christian.

But then, Jews are all ‘Chosen’, but not good enough to be ‘Saved’ (if they don’t believe in Jesus).

I wonder if I am ahead of Jews in the consideration for God’s infinite mercy or behind?

All are equal in consideration for God’s infinite mercy and grace. And the sacraments are where grace abounds.

 

[judynurse]

Actually I do believe in Jesus as a Son of God. But that is probably not good enough to be ‘Chosen’ since I am not a baptized Christian.

But then, Jews are all ‘Chosen’, but not good enough to be ‘Saved’ (if they don’t believe in Jesus).

I wonder if I am ahead of Jews in the consideration for God’s infinite mercy or behind?

The only problem with this quote from openmind77 is “Jesus as A Son of God.” He is THE Son of God, the only-begotten, but not created Son. We are sons and daughters of God BY ADOPTION. He doesn’t have multiple sons in the Holy Trinity – only ONE, so I think you’re right, it’s necessary to accept Him AND follow Him, and be a baptized Christian. That makes you a “chosen” to God. As for the Jews, they have their own Covenant and God does not revoke His promises – not to them, and not to any of us. Both promises for good and for punishment, as is merited by each.

Ahead or behind??? Neither.

 

[Kliska]

Actually I do believe in Jesus as a Son of God. But that is probably not good enough to be ‘Chosen’ since I am not a baptized Christian.

But then, Jews are all ‘Chosen’, but not good enough to be ‘Saved’ (if they don’t believe in Jesus).

I wonder if I am ahead of Jews in the consideration for God’s infinite mercy or behind?

Despite what I perceive as a certain level of sarcasm or flippancy, I’m interested in your belief set. Your user ID says “Hindu” yet you believe Jesus is the Son of God, yet you seem to deny the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as revealed in the OT.

So, just out of curiosity, or for the sake of discussion what precisely are your religious beliefs. Pardon if you’d laid them out elsewhere; I’m relatively new here.