Who is God's chosen people?

[openmind77]

Despite what I perceive as a certain level of sarcasm or flippancy, I’m interested in your belief set. Your user ID says “Hindu” yet you believe Jesus is the Son of God, yet you seem to deny the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as revealed in the OT.

So, just out of curiosity, or for the sake of discussion what precisely are your religious beliefs. Pardon if you’d laid them out elsewhere; I’m relatively new here.

I never said I did not believe in the God of Abraham. There is only one God (though he may appear to be three), so the God of Abraham is the same God. So I do believe in him. I also believe in Jesus as a Son of God and his teachings from the NT. Jesus preached of a loving, just, kind God and that is the only God there is.

However, I do not believe much of what is in the OT, its prophets or its depiction of an angry, unjust, violent, jealous God. The ancient Hebrews projected their own violent, angry, unfriendly nature on to God and made up all kinds of stories around that. (Of course, today’s Jews are nothing like that).

But like I said before this is moving away from the topic, so lets not continue in this vein.

 

[Kliska]

I never said I did not believe in the God of Abraham. There is only one God (though he may appear to be three), so the God of Abraham is the same God. So I do believe in him. I also believe in Jesus as a Son of God and his teachings from the NT. Jesus preached of a loving, just, kind God and that is the only God there is.

However, I do not believe much of what is in the OT, its prophets or its depiction of an angry, unjust, violent, jealous God. The ancient Hebrews projected their own violent, angry, unfriendly nature on to God and made up all kinds of stories around that. (Of course, today’s Jews are nothing like that).

But like I said before this is moving away from the topic, so lets not continue in this vein.

Have you shared your beliefs elsewhere? If not, it’s a little hard to converse without getting some context. For example you seem to deliberately say Jesus is “a Son of God” as though there are more begotten sons. You say you are monotheistic, yet your user title designates you as Hindu. Do you believe God is Brahma? or another? If you don’t wish to post about it, feel free to PM me if you like, or not talk about it all I suppose.

 

[tonyfish58]

You are answerable for the knowledge you possess and your response to it. In short, you’ve been informed of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and now it’s up to you whether to believe it or not.

You may be interested to know that this comment could very well be applicable for the Christians and the revelation of Muhammad and then applicable to the Muslims re the Revelation of Baha’u’llah!.

One has to ask how many times does God have to reveal Himself before we accept His messengers?

It is well worth Meditation and Prayer

Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

It may be of interest that “Chosen People” could mean those who accept the messenger of God in each age! Imagine it is not and never will be easy to accept a new messenger as History has proved - This is a very specific answer from the Baha’i Writings on this subject Link - reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAB/sab-18.html

O ye who are the chosen ones of the Abhá Kingdom! Praise ye the Lord of Hosts for He, riding upon the clouds, hath come down to this world out of the heaven of the invisible realm, so that East and West were lit by the glory of the Sun of Truth, and the call of the Kingdom was raised, and the heralds of the realm above, with melodies of the Concourse on high, sang out the glad tidings of the Coming. Then the whole world of being did quiver for joy, and still the people, even as the Messiah saith, slept on: for the day of the Manifestation, when the Lord of Hosts descended, found them wrapped in the slumber of unknowing. As He saith in the Gospel, My coming is even as when the thief is in the house, and the goodman of the house watcheth not.
From amongst all mankind hath He chosen you, and your eyes have been opened to the light of guidance and your ears attuned to the music of the Company above; and blessed by abounding grace, your hearts and souls have been born into new life. Thank ye and praise ye God that the hand of infinite bestowals hath set upon your heads this gem-studded crown, this crown whose lustrous jewels will forever flash and sparkle down all the reaches of time.
To thank Him for this, make ye a mighty effort, and choose for yourselves a noble goal. Through the power of faith, obey ye the teachings of God, and let all your actions conform to His laws. Read ye The Hidden Words, ponder the inner meanings thereof, act in accord therewith. Read, with close attention, the Tablets of Tarazát (Ornaments), Kalímát (Words of Paradise), Tajallíyyát (Effulgences), Ishráqát (Splendours), and Bishárát (Glad Tidings), and rise up as ye are bidden in the heavenly teachings. Thus may each one of you be even as a candle casting its light, the centre of attraction wherever people come together; and from you, as from a bed of flowers, may sweet scents be shed.
Raise ye a clamour like unto a roaring sea; like a prodigal cloud, rain down the grace of heaven. Lift up your voices and sing out the songs of the Abhá Realm. Quench ye the fires of war, lift high the banners of peace, work for the oneness of humankind and remember that religion is the channel of love unto all peoples. Be ye aware that the children of men are sheep of God and He their loving Shepherd, that He careth tenderly for all His sheep and maketh them to feed in His own green pastures of grace and giveth them to drink from the wellspring of life. Such is the way of the Lord. Such are His bestowals. Such, from among His teachings, is His precept of the oneness of mankind.
The portals of His blessings are opened wide and His signs are published abroad and the glory of truth is blazing forth; inexhaustible are the blessings. Know ye the value of this time. Strive ye with all your hearts, raise up your voices and shout, until this dark world be filled with light, and this narrow place of shadows be widened out, and this dust heap of a fleeting moment be changed into a mirror for the eternal gardens of heaven, and this globe of earth receive its portion of celestial grace.
Then will aggression crumble away, and all that maketh for disunity be destroyed, and the structure of oneness be raised—that the Blessed Tree may cast its shade over east and west, and the Tabernacle of the singleness of man be set up on the high summits, and flags that betoken love and fellowship flutter from their staffs around the world until the sea of truth lift high its waves, and earth bring forth the roses and sweet herbs of blessings without end, and become from pole to pole the Abhá Paradise.
These are the counsels of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá. It is my hope that out of the bestowals of the Lord of Hosts ye will become the spiritual essence and the very radiance of humankind, binding the hearts of all with bonds of love; that through the power of the Word of God ye will bring to life the dead now buried in the graves of their sensual desires; that ye will, with the rays of the Sun of Truth, restore the sight of those whose inner eye is blind; that ye will bring spiritual healing to the spiritually sick. These things do I hope for, out of the bounties and the bestowals of the Beloved.
At all times do I speak of you and call you to mind. I pray unto the Lord, and with tears I implore Him to rain down all these blessings upon you, and gladden your hearts, and make blissful your souls, and grant you exceeding joy and heavenly delights….
O Thou loving Provider! These souls have hearkened to the summons of the Kingdom, and have gazed upon the glory of the Sun of Truth. They have risen upward to the refreshing skies of love; they are enamoured of Thy nature, and they worship Thy beauty. Unto Thee have they turned themselves, speaking together of Thee, seeking out Thy dwelling, and thirsting for the waterbrooks of Thy heavenly realm.
Thou art the Giver, the Bestower, the Ever-loving.

Regards tony

 

[Kliska]

You may be interested to know that this comment could very well be applicable for the Christians and the revelation of Muhammad and then applicable to the Muslims re the Revelation of Baha’u’llah!.

One has to ask how many times does God have to reveal Himself before we accept His messengers?

It is well worth Meditation and Prayer

Regards Tony

I have no fear for I worship the Master Who bought me, Who was and is and is to come. God the Son Who lived a perfect life, was crucified and rose physically from the dead three days later. When I stand before God the Father, His Son is the Mediator between Him and I, standing there as the sacrifice for my sin. :yup:

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

I have no fear for I worship the Master Who bought me, Who was and is and is to come. God the Son Who lived a perfect life, was crucified and rose physically from the dead three days later. When I stand before God the Father, His Son is the Mediator between Him and I, standing there as the sacrifice for my sin. :yup:

"Hosanna to the Son of David!"

 

[Kliska]

"Hosanna to the Son of David!"

Amen and amen!

 

[PRmerger]

I have no fear for I worship the Master Who bought me, Who was and is and is to come. God the Son Who lived a perfect life, was crucified and rose physically from the dead three days later. When I stand before God the Father, His Son is the Mediator between Him and I, standing there as the sacrifice for my sin. :yup:

 

[tonyfish58]

I have no fear for I worship the Master Who bought me, Who was and is and is to come. God the Son Who lived a perfect life, was crucified and rose physically from the dead three days later. When I stand before God the Father, His Son is the Mediator between Him and I, standing there as the sacrifice for my sin. :yup:

They are wonderful words with the most great meaning.

But does one really know what one has claimed?

It may be that by Rejecting Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’ullah, one may have in reality rejected Christ!

It may not be wise to dismiss this as a possibility.

Regards tony

 

[batman1973]

God did make a Covenant with Israel – a “binding contract” with both promises of good and promises of punishment for not following Him. Jesus came to fulfill the Law (the Torah or “Bible” of the Jews) and the writings of the Prophets. Most Jews refused to accept Him, although a few thousand did so. Their promise of punishment was the destruction of Israel and the Diaspora from about 20 - 30 years after the death & resurrection of Jesus until 1948 in the 20th century. He still has a Covenant with them, and they are still the “Chosen out of the nations”, but have been disobedient. He will eventually complete the Covenant with them, bringing many to Jesus and belief in His true Messiah (according to prophecy and the Book of Revelations). However, we are ALSO the “Chosen of Christ”, His children, brothers & sisters, His disciples, and we also have His promises of both good and punishment for either following Him or rejecting or disobeying what He taught us to do.

So, the correct answer to this question is: both the Jews and the Believers and followers of Christ are the “chosen” of God, but in different ways and with different paths to follow. Jews are still the “People of the (old) Covenant” while we are the “People of the New Covenant” through Christ. By giving us His new Commandments “love one another as I have loved you” and the institution of the Eucharist at the Last Supper by which we receive His true Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, we are bound by this New Covenant of Christ. It is up to us to follow Him and obey His New Covenant of love and Eucharist.

I’m not a theologian, but this is how I basically understand it.

Very well said!

 

[Kliska]

They are wonderful words with the most great meaning.

Not only that they lead to the Way, the only Way to eternal life; Jesus Christ.

But does one really know what one has claimed?

Absolutely.

It may be that by Rejecting Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’ullah, one may have in reality rejected Christ!

Muhammad, Bab, Baha’ullah, etc… are not the Master that bought me and then proved it by raising physically from the dead 3 days later. Jesus Christ, Son of God, rose physically to prove to all of us, to provide a sign for all of us, that He is utterly unique in the history and future of all humankind, there is none like Him. By Him and through Him all generations in the past, present, and future have opportunity to be reconciled with God.

It may not be wise to dismiss this as a possibility.

Jesus is the Wisdom of God made flesh in a way it never was before and never will again. He is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world and foretold from the beginning. His reign is eternal.

 

[JoJoWasAMan]

Yes, God is love.

But that is not the only doctrine which must be embraced in order to join Him here on earth as well as in heaven.

We must embrace the Truths of God’s revelation** in their entirety.**

Is God not Infinite? How can we even know His Truth in its entirety, in order to embrace it?

 

[PRmerger]

Is God not Infinite? How can we even know His Truth in its entirety, in order to embrace it?

I said we must embrace His revelation in its entirety.

His revelation is not infinite, JoJo.

 

[JoJoWasAMan]

My sincerest apologies regarding any mistake I may have made. I was not challenging your personal understanding on the matter or your personal convictions. That was not my intention.

I was attempting to correct the mistake many make in claiming that the Catholic Church believes in replacement theology, namely that the Church is “the true Israel, the true Jews.” This is not true.

Again, the Pontifical Biblical Commission states in “The Jewish People and Their Sacred Scriptures in the Christian Bible”:

God has not “rejected his people” (Romans 11:1). This people continues to be “holy”, that is, in close relationship with God. It is holy because it comes from a holy root, the ancestors, and because their “first fruits” have been blessed (Romans 11:16).

“As regards the Gospel they are enemies of God for your sake;
as regards election they are beloved, for the sake of their ancestors;
for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable” (Romans 11:28-29)…

The break between the Jewish people and the Church of Christ Jesus could sometimes, in certain times and places, give the impression of being complete. In the light of the Scriptures, this should never have occurred. For a complete break between Church and Synagogue contradicts Sacred Scripture.

Pope Francis in “Evangelii Gaudium” expressed regret for past and on going anti-Jewish actions, including the misunderstanding that the Jews have somehow been replaced by the Church and their covenant revoked.

“Dialogue and friendship with the children of Israel are part of the life of Jesus’ disciples,” writes the Pope. “The friendship which has grown between us makes us bitterly and sincerely regret the terrible persecutions which they have endured, and continue to endure, especially those that have involved Christians.”

The Catholic Church holds “the Jewish people in special regard because" as the Holy Father tells us, "their covenant with God has never been revoked.”–Evangelii Gaudium.

Of course you are entitled to hold to your personal interpretation on matters. I don’t challenge what you personal hold true and sincerely believe. The Church’s authentic teaching as expressed in writing is all I am speaking about here.

There is a difference between personal conviction and official statement.

For the record, I am utterly uninterested in maintaining my personal convictions if they contradict the truth. I am interested in finding out and knowing, and embracing and living, the truth, whatever that may be.

That said, I am aware that the Catholic Church issues official statements intended to be definitive declarations of the truth, and quite often these are intended to clear up misconceptions of the past. The trouble, sometimes, is that words are still merely words, and subject to interpretation, or even change in meaning over time as language evolves. It is thus important, when one is seeking the truth, to understand the spirit of what is being said, considering the words as containers carrying the truth. It is not the letter of the law we seek, but the spirit.

When the Church says that the Covenant with Israel has never been revoked, she is speaking of that Covenant fulfilled by the Messiah of Israel, not another. There are not two parallel covenants in force now, there is only one, the one brought to Israel by Moses, and fulfilled in Jesus Christ. The New Covenant is indeed not new in the sense of replacement but rather in the sense of fulfillment. It is the Old Covenant — the Law is still in force as the correct standard of conduct — renewed, completed, and fulfilled.

So God indeed never revoked His Covenant with Israel, and He has never closed the doors of His Church to any who were Jews who wished to convert.

Not revoking His Covenant means that. It does not mean that He regards the prayers of modern-day Jews as somehow superior to the prayers of, for example, Sufis, nor on an equal par with the Prayer that is the Mass. Nor, indeed, in an intermediate position of regard. Rather, it is in the Mass that He fulfills the ancient Covenant with Israel, and all modern-day Jews are invited in, along with the whole wide world.

If you want to talk about the blood lineal descendants of the Twelve Tribes of Israel, you would not be talking about modern-day Jews, but rather nations like Ireland, Poland, Mexico, France, etc. They are the blood decendants of Israel. And God has not revoked His Covenant with them.

Keep in mind also, that when Jesus was found in the Temple after the three-day loss, He told His parents that He “must be about His Father’s business.” And they — Mary and Joseph — did not comprehend what He had said to them. It is indeed easier for a camel to pass through the needle’s eye than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God. And those priests were spiritually rich. There are reasons for everything that has happened in history. God is the Author, not only of His Church, but of all of history. There is more to all of this than meets the eye.

But I want to make crystal clear that to assert that modern-day Judaism as a religion is just as valid as the New Way brought by the Messiah is the heresy of Indifferentism, contrary to and not in line with Catholic Doctrine. There are not two repositories of the fulness of all truth, but only one.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Yes, God is love.

But that is not the only doctrine which must be embraced in order to join Him here on earth as well as in heaven.

We must embrace the Truths of God’s revelation** in their entirety.**

God Is Love is not some doctrine to be embraced but is a simple statement of fact, God Is a Being of Love, Love is not an attribute of God but God’s Very Being.

I believe that God Is our Judge, not you.

It is God’s Plan that is unfolding before our very eyes and it was/is God Who embraced ALL of humanity in the Incarnation and all that goes with the Incarnation.

 

[PRmerger]

God Is Love is not some doctrine to be embraced but is a simple statement of fact, God Is a Being of Love, Love is not an attribute of God but God’s Very Being.

A doctrine is nothing more than a “statement of fact”.

As such, you are saying: God is love is not some “statement of fact” but is a “statement of fact”. :whacky:

I believe that God Is our Judge, not you.

This is very Catholic, Tom.

And that is another doctrine that you have espoused and embraced.

It is God’s Plan that is unfolding before our very eyes and it was/is God Who embraced ALL of humanity in the Incarnation and all that goes with the Incarnation.

You are nothing more than a proclaimer of Catholic doctrine here!

 

[Tom_Baum]

The only problem with this quote from openmind77 is “Jesus as A Son of God.” He is THE Son of God, the only-begotten, but not created Son. We are sons and daughters of God BY ADOPTION. He doesn’t have multiple sons in the Holy Trinity – only ONE, so I think you’re right, it’s necessary to accept Him AND follow Him, and be a baptized Christian. That makes you a “chosen” to God. As for the Jews, they have their own Covenant and God does not revoke His promises – not to them, and not to any of us. Both promises for good and for punishment, as is merited by each.

Ahead or behind??? Neither.

Actually, Jesus is both not created and created, True God and True Man.

 

[PRmerger]

Actually, Jesus is both not created and created, True God and True Man.

Catholic doctrine, to be sure!

 

[JoJoWasAMan]

I never said I did not believe in the God of Abraham. There is only one God (though he may appear to be three), so the God of Abraham is the same God. So I do believe in him. I also believe in Jesus as a Son of God and his teachings from the NT. Jesus preached of a loving, just, kind God and that is the only God there is.

However, I do not believe much of what is in the OT, its prophets or its depiction of an angry, unjust, violent, jealous God. The ancient Hebrews projected their own violent, angry, unfriendly nature on to God and made up all kinds of stories around that. (Of course, today’s Jews are nothing like that).

But like I said before this is moving away from the topic, so lets not continue in this vein.

openmind, I am familiar with some of the doctrines of Hinduism. If you’d rather start up another thread for this, kindly indicate so. But I’d like to ask you a few questions about your own path, if you don’t mind sharing.

I am most familiar with the Gaudiya Vaishnava school and the Advaita Vedanta school. Would you consider yourself more closely affiliated with one or the other of these, or with another school of Vedic thought?

Thanks in advance!

Joe.

 

[JoJoWasAMan]

You may be interested to know that this comment could very well be applicable for the Christians and the revelation of Muhammad and then applicable to the Muslims re the Revelation of Baha’u’llah!.

One has to ask how many times does God have to reveal Himself before we accept His messengers?

It is well worth Meditation and Prayer

Regards Tony

Tony, do you consider Baha’u’llah as an Incarnation, as God, as superior to yourself?

I for my part have studied much, from all over the world, and have developed many of my own ideas, and am interested in hearing your thoughts.

Are you at all familiar with Sikhism and the Guru Granth Sahib?

I am familiar with the Baha’i teachings, I have read The Seven Valleys as well as some other writings. I also know that Baha’u’llah wrote to Pope Pius XI. Did he ever receive an answer?

I look forward to our conversation.