Who is greater?

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Bartholo

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So I have a question for Mormons: Who is greater, Joseph Smith or Jesus?

If the great apostasy happened, then Jesus was not able to found a lasting church. If Mormonism is the truth, then Joseph Smith was able to (re)start a lasting church. But Jesus is the Lord, and Joseph Smith only a prophet. Jesus is God. Why would his church not last, but Smith’s would?
 
Bartholo said:
So I have a question for Mormons: Who is greater, Joseph Smith or Jesus?
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Christ, the Son of God.
Bartholo said:
If the great apostasy happened, then Jesus was not able to found a lasting church.
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Correction: sinful people abandoned Christ’s Truth. Such was their choice, and Christ will force no man to Him. People’s love of sin is in no way a reflection of “failure” for Christ.

Rest of your question is based on false assumptions.
 
Of course Christ, the son of God, was grater than Joseph Smith, or any other mortal human. Who on earth told you Mormons believed otherwise?
 
jane_doe said:
Christ, the Son of God.

Correction: sinful people abandoned Christ’s Truth. Such was their choice, and Christ will force no man to Him. People’s love of sin is in no way a reflection of “failure” for Christ.

Rest of your question is based on false assumptions.
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Well…if the Church that Christ founded did not fail…then why is there a need for the LDS and Joseph Smith’s coming and establishment of the LDS?
 
There is little evidence that any “great apostasy” happened. The only apostates where the Gnostic’s, which Mormons seems to share some things in common with.

Mormons seem to like to make up history. Their entire book contains made up history!
 
thephilosopher6 said:
There is little evidence that any “great apostasy” happened. The only apostates where the Gnostic’s, which Mormons seems to share some things in common with.

Mormons seem to like to make up history. Their entire book contains made up history!
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🤷 You’re free to think that if you wish.
 
jane_doe said:
Christ, the Son of God.

Correction: sinful people abandoned Christ’s Truth. Such was their choice, and Christ will force no man to Him. **People’s love of sin **is in no way a reflection of “failure” for Christ.

Rest of your question is based on false assumptions.
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Because all people love sin that’s why they are members of any church but the LDS.
 
jane_doe said:
🤷 You’re free to think that if you wish.
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From this link:

The Book of Mormon describes a vast pre-Columbian culture that supposedly existed for centuries in North and South America. It goes into amazingly specific detail describing the civilizations erected by the “Nephites” and “Lamanites,” who were Jews that fled Palestine in three installments, built massive cities in the New World, farmed the land, produced works of art, and fought large-scale wars which culminated in the utter destruction of the Nephites in A.D. 421. The Latter-Day Saints revere the Book of Mormon as the divinely-inspired record of those people and of Christ’s appearance to them shortly after his crucifixion in Jerusalem.

The awkward part for the Mormon church is the total lack of historical and archaeological evidence to support the Book of Mormon. For example, after the cataclysmic last battle fought between the Nephites and Lamanites, there was no one left to clean up the mess. Hundreds of thousands of men and beasts allegedly perished in that battle, and the ground was strewn with weapons and armor.

Keep in mind that A.D. 421 is just yesterday in archaeological terms. It should be easy to locate and retrieve copious evidence of such a battle, and there hasn’t been enough time for the weapons and armor to turn to dust. The Bible tells of similar battles that have been documented by archaeology, battles which took place long before A.D. 421.

The embarrassing truth—embarrassing for Mormons, that is—is that no scientist, Mormon or otherwise, has been able to find anything to substantiate that such a great battle took place.
 
Erich said:
From this link:

The Book of Mormon describes a vast pre-Columbian culture that supposedly existed for centuries in North and South America. It goes into amazingly specific detail describing the civilizations erected by the “Nephites” and “Lamanites,” who were Jews that fled Palestine in three installments, built massive cities in the New World, farmed the land, produced works of art, and fought large-scale wars which culminated in the utter destruction of the Nephites in A.D. 421. The Latter-Day Saints revere the Book of Mormon as the divinely-inspired record of those people and of Christ’s appearance to them shortly after his crucifixion in Jerusalem.

The awkward part for the Mormon church is the total lack of historical and archaeological evidence to support the Book of Mormon. For example, after the cataclysmic last battle fought between the Nephites and Lamanites, there was no one left to clean up the mess. Hundreds of thousands of men and beasts allegedly perished in that battle, and the ground was strewn with weapons and armor.

Keep in mind that A.D. 421 is just yesterday in archaeological terms. It should be easy to locate and retrieve copious evidence of such a battle, and there hasn’t been enough time for the weapons and armor to turn to dust. The Bible tells of similar battles that have been documented by archaeology, battles which took place long before A.D. 421.

The embarrassing truth—embarrassing for Mormons, that is—is that no scientist, Mormon or otherwise, has been able to find anything to substantiate that such a great battle took place.
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I wonder what ridiculous “apologetic” response their going to use this time! Lol 🍿
 
As was said on the Bible Answerman some years back: Why are there no maps in the Book of Mormon?

Any medium-price Bible has maps showing Biblical Israel and the Near and Middle East. Where are the Mormon maps of North and South America that would establish the places of the great events the book describes?

ICXC NIKA.
 
Fun fact, in 1835 an Irishman named Michael Chandler gave Joseph Smith an ancient papyri which contained Egyptian hieroglyphics. Joseph Smith attempted to “translate” it. He called it the “Book of Abraham” which tells of Abraham’s travels to Canaan and Egypt from a Mormon perspective. The papyri was lost but was amazingly rediscovered. Numerous scholars examined it and found that pretty much all of Joseph Smith’s translation was false. The hieroglyphics actually depicted embalming ceremony’s involving the Egyptian god “Anibus.”
 
thephilosopher6 said:
Fun fact, in 1835 an Irishman named Michael Chandler gave Joseph Smith an ancient papyri which contained Egyptian hieroglyphics. Joseph Smith attempted to “translate” it. He called it the “Book of Abraham” which tells of Abraham’s travels to Canaan and Egypt from a Mormon perspective. The papyri was lost but was amazingly rediscovered. Numerous scholars examined it and found that pretty much all of Joseph Smith’s translation was false. The hieroglyphics actually depicted embalming ceremony’s involving the Egyptian god “Anibus.”
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OoooPPS…:confused:
 
jane_doe said:
Christ, the Son of God.

Correction: sinful people abandoned Christ’s Truth. Such was their choice, and Christ will force no man to Him. People’s love of sin is in no way a reflection of “failure” for Christ.

Rest of your question is based on false assumptions.
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pablope said:
Well…if the Church that Christ founded did not fail…then why is there a need for the LDS and Joseph Smith’s coming and establishment of the LDS?
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The real problem for the LDS, aside from the absolute lack of evidence to prove the BoM true, is the truth of our God. Many times in the old testament the Israelites failed God in their sinful ways. Many times God showed mercy and forgave the Israelites. The OT is full of proof God’s ability to love His people.

To believe there was a “Great Apostasy” one would have to believe God’s ability to love His people is limited. One would have to believe the sin of man was too overwhelming for God to handle. Jesus Christ was sent to build God’s Church on earth and that Church stands today. Saying God’s Church failed because of sinners is like saying God couldn’t manage sinners.
 
Bartholo said:
So I have a question for Mormons: Who is greater, Joseph Smith or Jesus?

If the great apostasy happened, then Jesus was not able to found a lasting church. If Mormonism is the truth, then Joseph Smith was able to (re)start a lasting church. But Jesus is the Lord, and Joseph Smith only a prophet. Jesus is God. Why would his church not last, but Smith’s would?
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John 14:12 states…

Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father.

I agree with you that Jesus is the Lord and Joseph Smith a prophet. Why would Jesus say that His disciples will do greater works than Him? I personally don’t know the answer, but it’s there in the Bible. You seem to imply that doing works greater than those of Jesus is a misguided thought.
 
jane_doe said:
Christ, the Son of God.

Correction: sinful people abandoned Christ’s Truth. Such was their choice, and Christ will force no man to Him. People’s love of sin is in no way a reflection of “failure” for Christ.

Rest of your question is based on false assumptions.
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I am no fan nor defender of LDS, but this is a well-given answer to a thread that has all the marks of baiting.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
I am no fan nor defender of LDS, but this is a well-given answer to a thread that has all the marks of baiting.

Jon
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Matthew 16-18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

I get where you are coming from but the words of Jesus contradict the idea that God abandoned His church due to the sin of man. Looks like He made a provision for us sinners.
 
Horton said:
Matthew 16-18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

I get where you are coming from but the words of Jesus contradict the idea that God abandoned His church due to the sin of man. Looks like He made a provision for us sinners.
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Of course God did not abandon his Church. No Lutheran would believe that. As I said,Conan no fan or defender of LDS.

Jon
 
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