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bpbasilphx
Guest
Mahometans talk about entities they call “Jesus” and “Mary”, but they are not the real Jesus or Mary of Christianity.
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bpbasilphx
Guest
Jesus went Eastward after getting saved from death on the Cross to preach his teachings in the Jews settled there.
**** W * R * O * N * G * !!!*
Jesus died on the crss and rose from the dead.
By denying His death on the cross, you think you are freed from having to deal with His Resurrection.
A dead man requires only that you bury him.
A man who rises from the dead is in a position to make non-negotiable demands.
I confess there is no God but Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and Jesus is God Incarnate.**
**** W * R * O * N * G * !!!*
Jesus died on the crss and rose from the dead.
By denying His death on the cross, you think you are freed from having to deal with His Resurrection.
A dead man requires only that you bury him.
A man who rises from the dead is in a position to make non-negotiable demands.
I confess there is no God but Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and Jesus is God Incarnate.**
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Reuben_J
Guest
With paarsurrey most of our explanation just pass him by. He seems to be a purposeful poster in promoting his brand of Islam.
Yeah, what’s the best thing that you have learnt in these forums, paarsurrey?
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paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
One of the best things is to get introduced to **Charlie Zeaiter ** a sober, intelligent and religious friend here.
Thanks
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Charlie_Zeaiter
Guest
Don’t placate me, paarsurrey; I’m well prepared for you.
If you are serious, then there is one thing I would like to teach you, my muslim friend; I’d like you to learn that the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother so pure, Our Lady of Fatima, can lead you and show you the way to God - a being of love, forgiveness, hope, and you’ll find life everlasting.
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paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
Now take another one if you like; but I know you won’t believe me as such. This much I learn from experience.
This I get from somebody else on these forums. Attempting to change someone else’s mind is not the only reason for discussion. It could also be to gain better understanding of opposing views, put one’s favored views to the test, and so on.
It is a learning process the whole life. Our truthful ProphetMessenger Muhammad commanded Muslims to learn from cradle to the grave. Jesus did the same. He died in India, learning from GodAllahYHWH and spreading it among others till he died a natural death in Sirinagar, Kashmir, India.
I think you agree with me.
You are a nice friend, for sure
Thanks and regards
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paarsurrey
Guest
HiYeah, what’s the best thing that you have learnt in these forums, paarsurrey?
You are another person I get as a bonus to get introduced to.
You are not a thing though.
I like you people the Catholics very much; miles and miles ahead of the ProtestantsJWS etc in good moral behaviour. I really salute you all. I wish you would have followed in Jesus’ footsteps in concepts and acts rather than to follow Paul who had , in my opinion, differences with Jesus and Mary . At times I am surprised as to why my Catholics friends cannot understand such simple things.
Then they have their own free will; I understand.
Thanks and regards; convey my good wishes to your family.
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planten
Guest
.
Was Jesus buried in a formal manner?? I believe not. It appears that the friends knew that he will soon get up and that he was not really dead at all. So they laid him in a big spacious underground room. And his legs were also not broken because he would need those legs to walk about like a normal man.
Jesus had prayed to his God for his life and honor. He even cried out to his God trying to remind him of some promise “MY God, My God, why have you forsaken me?” These words do not sound good for Jesus or any man of God.
His God must have heard his crying and call for help and due to the previous prayers at night in the garden, his God must have spared his life. There was no need to kill jesus on the cross and to make him get up with the same body again. If he had returned from the dead then there should have been some sign, some proof, some different body. But it was same old wounded body. So it was as if nothing had happened at all to jesus. Only he felt wounded.
All that is in the gospels.
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Charlie_Zeaiter
Guest
I’ve mentioned before that I thought planten and paarsurrey were one and the same person. I realise this has been denied, but you’re writing style and thoughts are incredibly similar.
Anyway, the gospels state that Jesus was speared in His side when He was on the cross; Do you suppose the gospel was wrong, or do you suppose He survived being speared in His side too?
Anyway, the gospels state that Jesus was speared in His side when He was on the cross; Do you suppose the gospel was wrong, or do you suppose He survived being speared in His side too?
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Sister_Amy
Guest
Muslims base their beliefs on the Qur’an–which in case you didn’t know says that Jesus was not crucified at all.
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Charlie_Zeaiter
Guest
Yes, I know, Sister Amy. But post # 28 was making references to the bible.
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Verisimilitude
Guest
I am curious. Would you change your belief if you proved to yourself the quran is not as accurate and true as you currently believe?
I would change my belief if Jesus bones were found in India or if a reputable source confirmed He never rose from the dead. If Jesus were mearly as described in the Quran and not the NT…I still would not accept Mohammed/Islam but I would no longer remain Catholic.
I am not asking what it would take to convince you, un;ess you would like to share. Just if the possibility exists within your mind to remain objective to other facts and logic that could cause you to change your mind.
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Kallukalam
Guest
Paarsurrey/Plante:
You can believe whatever lies Mohammed wrote in the book quran, but don’t tell us to believe the same.
Kallukalam
You can believe whatever lies Mohammed wrote in the book quran, but don’t tell us to believe the same.
Kallukalam
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planten
Guest
**The topic is “Who is Jesus in Islam”. Interesting. The Quran adresses the jews and the christians and describes all about jesus and his mother and maternal grand mother. It describes the good life of Mary the mother and how she was left to serve in the temple in the care of Zakariyyah, her pious (pure) life. Also how she got the good news of the birth of an illustrous son even before her marriage.
It describes that the marriage of Mary was arranged by Allah and the selection of Joseph was by lots. i.e. the selection of the husband was by the will of Allah.
The Quran describes the good life of Jesus and how he preached for monotheism and his prayers to One God. The struggle of Jesus and the great opposition from the that time Jews until Jesus faced the danger of life too and called people for help in the way of Allah. He asked “Who will help me in the way of Allah”. The disciples replied that they were his supporters in the way of Allah. (See verses 3:49 onwards)
All these things are described in the Quran itself. May I just briefly describe the matter in few words.
Quran tells us that Jesus was nothing more than a messenger of Allah. He was not any begotten son of God (in the normally understood sense of the word begotten, as it is used in bible NT too,i.e. Abraham begat Issac, Issac begat Jacob…)
He lived and died like all other people and prophets, but he did not die on the cross. He feared that his enemies wanted to crucify him to prove that he was a cursed person so he was not a prophet at all. He knew the plan of the enemies. To avoid the death on the cross, he prayed earnestly all night to his God to let the cup pass away from him. (Bible NT)
The Quran states that his prayer was accepted and he was told by Allah that
- He (Jesus) will die a natural death ( i.e. not on the cross) and
- That his ranks will be raised high towards Allah and,
- That Allah will clear all blames about his lifestyle imposed by his enemies and,
- Allah will help and his followers will prevail upon the enemies of Jesus till the day of judgement.
Thanks. So much for this time. More may be presented later if necessary.**
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Charlie_Zeaiter
Guest
Hi planten,
We too know what the Qur’an says. We just don’t know why we should believe it to be divinely inspired scripture.
So, while it’s fair for you to believe that Jesus died a natural death, it’s not fair for you to say he didn’t die on the cross, because that is just replacing history with an illusion.
We too know what the Qur’an says. We just don’t know why we should believe it to be divinely inspired scripture.
So, while it’s fair for you to believe that Jesus died a natural death, it’s not fair for you to say he didn’t die on the cross, because that is just replacing history with an illusion.
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planten
Guest
Thanks Charlie for your nice opinion. The problem is that we Muslims know Jesus as a man and as a Man of God (Prophet). To us he is another man like muhammad and moses. A man only dies once. That is our belief. Otherwise also, if dead people will come back and claim their property which is distributed after the death as per laws of inheritance. If dead men came back, they may claim their wives too. It is not because of this logic only. It is because there is a verse of the Quran which states that “They will never return.”
The other problem is that while Jews tried to kill Jesus on the cross, the purpose was to prove that he was nothing more than an ordinary cursed person. The christians went down to believe and to support the enemies of Jesus and agreed that he was a cursed person. But the Quran does not say that. The Quran exempts Jesus from that bad charge of being a cursed person. We Muslims believe that to be cursed is to be far away from the Love and Mercy of God. That is never possible for Jesus.
We are not making it up. The Quran categorically denies that Jesus was killed on the cross. There are many sections (sects) in Islam. You may ask any one from any sect. No Muslim will believe that Jesus died on the cross.
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Angelos
Guest
Rather strikingly, the Koran agrees with Jews when it repudiates the reality of crucifixion because replacing Jesus’ passion with an illusion can by no means save Jesus (Issa) in the Koran from the disgrace of dying as a cursed man forsaken by God. Allah in the Koran works a miracle in order to blind the Jews (Issa’s enemies in your words!) and condemn them to an illusion. Since it is Allah who causes Jews to see that they really crucify Jesus and since it is again Allah who conceals Jesus’ salvation from death through an unseen and unknown miracle, Jews are made to believe that Jesus (Issa) is a cursed culprit whom God forsakes! I am positive the scribes inserting the verse denying the crucifixion into the Koran did not have time to ponder over this supposed miracle
What do u mean by the word categorically? After reading so many Koran versions/translations as well as commentaries, I still cannot find a good theological reason in Islam for Allah to prevent Issa’s death on cross. The only reason I can find is purely political: the Koran denies crucifixion because it delights in fooling the Jewish race and taking revenge from them through Jesus.
More, there are many sects in Islam that have a different story concerning the illusion theory as well as various reasons for it. It is actually Muslims that know nothing about this incident but only follow a conjecture.
Peace,
Angelos N. B.
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Charlie_Zeaiter
Guest
Hi again planten,
I will never accuse you of “making it up”. I know very well that you have learnt this story from the Qur’an and you believe the Qur’an to be divinely inspired scripture. I understand your beliefs, but I can not share them.
I believe the Qur’an is no match to fulfilled prophecy. Consequently, I do believe that Jesus did indeed die on Friday 3rd April 33AD.
I think we are stuck. We may just have to respect our differences and move on.
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Sister_Amy
Guest
Muslims do not believe that Jesus died a natural death as someone said above. Muslims believe that Jesus was raised (alive) to Heaven without ever having died on the cross.
They believe this because of the Qur’an. They know the Bible says otherwise, but they consider the Qur’an to miraculously prove itself. This thread is called “Who is Jesus in Islam?” after all, so I think it’s actually worthwhile to point out what Muslims believe… instead of why Christians don’t believe it.
They believe this because of the Qur’an. They know the Bible says otherwise, but they consider the Qur’an to miraculously prove itself. This thread is called “Who is Jesus in Islam?” after all, so I think it’s actually worthwhile to point out what Muslims believe… instead of why Christians don’t believe it.
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Reuben_J
Guest
Of course.
But Christians can comment since it contradicts the Bible directly. My conclusion - circular reasoning, which you admit as much.
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