Who is Martin Luther and why was he excommunicated?

[benjohnson]

In fact, I am seriously considering doing an ecumenical book called *Luther for Everyone (Even Catholics) *or suchlike, where everything in it would be his words that Catholics would agree with.

I’d like to see that - I’ve found that some Lutheran theology can be quite comforting to some Catholics in need.

I remember a great Catholic friend lamenting about the recent scandals, and I gave him a Lutheran shortcut of “Of course there’s scandal! Of course devil assaults the Church. It’s to be expected!” - my firend now shrugs off scandal like a duck does with water.

 

[benjohnson]

Not sure how this advances the discussion. …]

Yeah, Catholics killed people, too. They were equally as wrong.

I bring it up because there’s a common conception that Lutherans/Catholics were particularly bloodthirsty during the Reformation period - when frankly, history will show that given the times, both sides were especially kind.

I can’t think of another time in history when a large religious body split in two and there was less religious bloodshed.

 

[guanophore]

As far as me being “anti-Catholic”; it is quite obvious that you and I know nothing of the other. I look forward to exploring DaveArmstrong,com.

You sure are taking your sweet time about it. You slammed the contents of the post (I know because I helped ) but it appears you actually never investigated it. You have had since August 11, that was almost a month ago (what took you so long to get here, Dave?)

 

[DaveArmstrong]

EvangelCatholic is very far from being anti-Catholic, IMO.

Great. I said “if” he turns out to be one, I’m through talking with him. I am accountable to God for the way I spend my time. Time is short and the harvest is ripe.

Whatever he believes or doesn’t believe, he has lied about me being deliberately dishonest in my Luther paper about the 50 ways (sounds like the old Paul Simon song LOL); and if that’s not retracted it, too, is a dealbreaker in terms of us ever talking constructively. You can’t have a good dialogue when the other guy insists on falsely calling you a deliberately dishonest liar.

But I don’t have unlimited time here anyway, as I stated up front. I had some extra time today and was bored, and this was a fun pastime. Mainly, I’m trying to clarify my point of view in the face of unjust criticism and misrepresentation.

When that happens, I’ll come in and give my side, since thousands are reading these threads, and I get rather tired of having falsehoods spread around that have no truth in them regarding some writing of mine or my general views.

 

[guanophore]

It is difficult to prevent me from buying a book. Bought 5 last week. Slow week, at that.

GKC

What is really difficult is to find a book for you that you don’t already own, or are waiting for delivery!

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Dave Armstrong

I read “How Catholics View Protestants” [Friday, March 09, 2007] and was impressed though confused that you never mention Lutherans or the Dialogue/ Declaration. You do mention Episcopal, Methodist, Presbyterian, Reformed, and Protestants in general. How did you overlook the most significant ecumenical development in the last 100 years in your expose of Vatican II?

 

[guanophore]

Dave Armstrong

I read “How Catholics View Protestants” [Friday, March 09, 2007] and was impressed though confused that you never mention Lutherans or the Dialogue/ Declaration. You do mention Episcopal, Methodist, Presbyterian, Reformed, and Protestants in general. How did you overlook the most significant ecumenical development in the last 100 years in your expose of Vatican II?

This seems like a question for you to take over to Dave’s blog and/or facebook.

We keep falling off the topic and are going to get the thread closed. Some of us might even be suspended. :bigyikes:

 

[DaveArmstrong]

(what took you so long to get here, Dave?)

I wrote about it on Facebook (linked to my blog on my Luther page) at the time. Today I decided that it’s important that I respond* in the venue* where false things were broadcast, so that people reading can see both sides (most of whom would be quite unaware of my reply-paper).

I have almost totally avoided Internet forums since 2003 (I wrote about why I became fed up with them) – excepting my time as a moderator at the Coming Home Network from 2007-2010, where we allowed no personal attacks at all (therefore, I had no principled objections to it).

I will avoid this one, too, for the most part and will only pop in now and then if I’m brought up in an unfair fashion.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

This seems like a question for you to take over to Dave’s blog and/or facebook.

We keep falling off the topic and are going to get the thread closed. Some of us might even be suspended. :bigyikes:

Take a few deep breaths quanophore. Armstrong identified/ linked his document to the discussion. I am merely asking is how one devotes so much attention to Martin Luther yet fails to even cite Luther or Lutherans in his complementary connection to ecumenism?

 

[guanophore]

I will avoid this one, too, for the most part and will only pop in now and then if I’m brought up in an unfair fashion.

Ok well I will think of something besides inflammatory verbiage in the future. Boettner’s list! Nothing worse would come to mind.

Anyway these are the two that confused me:

1. Denial of the “wicked” belief that the mass is a good work.
2. Denial of the “wicked” belief that the mass is a true sacrifice.

Are you saying that Luther denied these beliefs?

Or that he believed them but denied he did?

 

[DaveArmstrong]

There is a small group of us fledgling apologists who decided to make Dave Armstrong’s fundraising appeal our Fall quarter challenge.

Wow! Here I thought you were “agin’” me and you are saying all this nice and very kind stuff,
and it’s very touching. You almost have me speechless!

I swear that I didn’t come here to call attention to my fundraising (just to make *that *crystal clear), which I do only once a year for 3-4 weeks. The money will be raised. I’ve already gotten 57% of it raised in just 11 days. I came here for the reasons I have been giving: simply to give my side if I feel I have been the recipient of a bum rap.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Are you avoiding Dave?

When you identify Protestant does that include Lutherans? Simple question, my friend.

 

[GKC]

What is really difficult is to find a book for you that you don’t already own, or are waiting for delivery!

This is true.

GKC

 

[GKC]

Great. I said “if” he turns out to be one, I’m through talking with him. I am accountable to God for the way I spend my time. Time is short and the harvest is ripe.

Whatever he believes or doesn’t believe, he has lied about me being deliberately dishonest in my Luther paper about the 50 ways (sounds like the old Paul Simon song LOL); and if that’s not retracted it, too, is a dealbreaker in terms of us ever talking constructively. You can’t have a good dialogue when the other guy insists on falsely calling you a deliberately dishonest liar.

But I don’t have unlimited time here anyway, as I stated up front. I had some extra time today and was bored, and this was a fun pastime. Mainly, I’m trying to clarify my point of view in the face of unjust criticism and misrepresentation.

When that happens, I’ll come in and give my side, since thousands are reading these threads, and I get rather tired of having falsehoods spread around that have no truth in them regarding some writing of mine or my general views.

Glad you stopped by, at any rate.

GKC

 

[DaveArmstrong]

I read “How Catholics View Protestants” [Friday, March 09, 2007] and was impressed though confused that you never mention Lutherans or the Dialogue/ Declaration. You do mention Episcopal, Methodist, Presbyterian, Reformed, and Protestants in general. How did you overlook the most significant ecumenical development in the last 100 years in your expose of Vatican II?

I like “ECT” better (and am more familiar with it) because it comes mostly from the evangelical portion of Protestantism (that I used to be a part of). The Lutheran-Catholic talks are a bit marred or hampered by the fact that the LCMS doesn’t even participate, and the Lutherans who do are barely (in terms of their* official *beliefs) Lutherans anymore . . . [ELCA, e.g.,http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2009/08/elca-lutheran-body-votes-to-allow.html”] voted in 2009 to allow practicing homosexual clergy]

It’s fine as far as it goes, and clarifies things, but the more theological liberals are involved, then there is the danger of it being a dead letter and having indifferentist elements, if not in the letter, then in practice (just as Vatican II was hijacked in practice by liberal clowns).

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I like “ECT” better (and am more familiar with it) because it comes mostly from the evangelical portion of Protestantism (that I used to be a part of). The Lutheran-Catholic talks are a bit marred or hampered by the fact that the LCMS doesn’t even participate, and the Lutherans who do are barely (in terms of their* official *beliefs) Lutherans anymore . . . [ELCA, e.g., voted in 2009 to allow practicing homosexual clergy]

It’s fine as far as it goes, and clarifies things, but the more theological liberals are involved, then there is the danger of it being a dead letter and having indifferentist elements, if not in the letter, then in practice (just as Vatican II was hijacked in practice by liberal clowns).

Thank you Dave. You clearly display what your list is; a senseless adversarial insult to both Lutherans and Catholics.

 

[guanophore]

Thank you Dave. You clearly display what your list is; a senseless adversarial insult to both Lutherans and Catholics.

Well, I just finished reading Dave’s Article about why he avoids Boards.

Sadly it didn’t take but 30 seconds to get a live confirmation of everything that was written there.

 

[DaveArmstrong]

Thank you Dave. You clearly display what your list is; a senseless adversarial insult to both Lutherans and Catholics.

Sheer nonsense. The list simply gives Luther’s beliefs. If you deny it, then prove me wrong by dealing with it (like a thinker) rather than lying and talking about it. Put up or shut up.

I am ecumenical. I catch hell all the time from “radical Catholic reactionary” Catholics (folks who detest Vatican II) for being so. I already said I like the Lutheran-Catholic talks. I like any talks where folks get to know each other better and get over the misinformation and mistrust on both sides. But LCMS ain’t there, and the Lutherans who formally voted to have active homosexual clergy are the main participants. That is significant. It’s like trying to talk reunion now with the Anglicans, with all that they have caved in about.

I’m working on an ecumenical book right now about Orthodoxy. I revised my original version which was directed more to the anti-Catholic Orthodox, and removed virtually all polemics; also have two Eastern Catholics making major contributions to the second edition.

If you think I am anti-Lutheran, you know nothing about me, either. Just listen to what Lutheran dialogue partners have said about me:

“Dave Armstrong is a former Protestant Catholic who is in fact blessedly free of the kind of ‘any enemy of Protestantism is a friend of mine’ coalition-building . . . he’s pro-Catholic (naturally) without being anti-Protestant (or anti-Orthodox, for that matter).”

—“CPA”: Lutheran professor of history

“You are a very friendly adversary who really does try to do all things with gentleness and respect. For this I praise God.”

— Nathan Rinne (Lutheran apologist [LC-MS] )

I had several meaty dialogues with both these men. Two Protestants on this very thread have noted that I am fair to Luther and write positive things about him, too.

Or you could look at what I say about Rev. Dick Bieber, a Lutheran pastor at the church I attended when I had my evangelical conversion in 1977:

Rev. Dick Bieber is an extraordinary preacher and teacher (and man). As I look back at what he taught me and gave to me in my Christian life (and to my brother and sister and many many others), I see that it was the firm conviction that discipleship and following Jesus has to be a total, radical commitment. This is central to all Christianity: be it Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, or groups which consciously attempt to defy all three categories.

This aspect, and the high emphasis on sharing the gospel with others (including street evangelism) was what Messiah [his church] was about: what it was known and renowned for. And it had a profound and lasting influence on my life. I’ve always sought to radically follow Jesus (not that I always succeeded, by a long shot!), and evangelism and specifically its “half-sister”: defense of the faith, or apologetics, have been my vocation in life.

These emphases are almost a case study of what Catholics can learn from evangelicals. Neither a total, heartfelt commitment to Jesus nor evangelism are at all foreign to Catholicism, in terms of what we believe. In fact, in the 16th century when Protestantism began, Catholics were doing virtually all of the world evangelism and missions work, while Protestants did very little, and it was hardly stressed at all by Luther and Calvin. But in practice, today, many Catholics do not have this sense of urgency, to commit one’s life to Jesus and to share the exciting truths learned as a result.

Therefore, to the extent that a person has received these teachings in an evangelical setting, one has been taught what they should have been taught in the Catholic Church, but often are (sadly) not taught.

I wrote this in 2008: 18 years after I became a Catholic, and in this paper I highly praise several other pastors who have had an inestimable influence on my spiritual and theological life.

Believe what you will. The record is clear. But our time of talking comes very near to an end if you don’t drop all these slanderous accusations.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Well, I just finished reading Dave’s Article about why he avoids Boards.

Sadly it didn’t take but 30 seconds to get a live confirmation of everything that was written there.

Do you agree with Armstrong that Pope John 23rd Vatican II were “liberal clowns”?

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Sheer nonsense. The list simply gives Luther’s beliefs. If you deny it, then prove me wrong by dealing with it (like a thinker) rather than lying and talking about it. Put up or shut up.

I am ecumenical. I catch hell all the time from “radical Catholic reactionary” Catholics (folks who detest Vatican II) for being so. I already said I like the Lutheran-Catholic talks. I like any talks where folks get to know each other better and get over the misinformation and mistrust on both sides. But LCMS ain’t there, and the Lutherans who formally voted to have active homosexual clergy are the main participants. That is significant. It’s like trying to talk reunion now with the Anglicans, with all that they have caved in about.

I’m working on an ecumenical book right now about Orthodoxy. I revised my original version which was directed more to the anti-Catholic Orthodox, and removed virtually all polemics; also have two Eastern Catholics making major contributions to the second edition.

If you think I am anti-Lutheran, you know nothing about me, either. Just listen to what Lutheran dialogue partners have said about me:

“Dave Armstrong is a former Protestant Catholic who is in fact blessedly free of the kind of ‘any enemy of Protestantism is a friend of mine’ coalition-building . . . he’s pro-Catholic (naturally) without being anti-Protestant (or anti-Orthodox, for that matter).”

—“CPA”: Lutheran professor of history

“You are a very friendly adversary who really does try to do all things with gentleness and respect. For this I praise God.”

— Nathan Rinne (Lutheran apologist [LC-MS] )

I had several meaty dialogues with both these men. Two Protestants on this very thread have noted that I am fair to Luther and write positive things about him, too.

Or you could look at what I say about Rev. Dick Bieber, a Lutheran pastor at the church I attended when I had my evangelical conversion in 1977:

I wrote this in 2008: 18 years after I became a Catholic, and in this paper I highly praise several other pastors who have had an inestimable influence on my spiritual and theological life.

Believe what you will. The record is clear. But our time of talking comes very near to an end if you don’t drop all these slanderous accusations.

Do you consider Lutherans to be Protestants? Especially considering your in-dept roasting of Martin Luther. With that in mind I find is rather odd that you do not mention Lutherans in your ecumenical zeal.