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Charlie_Zeaiter
Guest
Hi AgnosTheist,
I haven’t quite worked out your faith.
Do you believe Muhammed received a revelation (Qur’an) from Allah and the Angel Gabriel?
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I haven’t quite worked out your faith.
Do you believe Muhammed received a revelation (Qur’an) from Allah and the Angel Gabriel?
C
Charlie_Zeaiter
Guest
We can only be “grilled” if you have an explanation for those issues. Otherwise, you’re just as “stumped” as we are.I have already grilled the Christians here about those issues. Theyre stumped. As usual the final excuse is “God knows best”.
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meedo
Guest
thew jews of bani kuraiza had a pact to defend the city against all invaders. While the muslism were defending the southern part of the city, they betrayed him and joined the invaders. they started scouting out the muslim rear where the women and children stayed. unfortunately for them the invaderswithdrew and couldnt care less about them. Muhammed marched with his army and asked them to pick a judge that would give the suitable punishment for them. they picked a Judge and he senrtenced men to death and women and children to enslavement. Not the nicest punichment but when you decide to accept bieng a traitor and attack your buddy in the back in teh time when he is running teh risk of annihilation from an already superior enemy, its the least you should get. i actually think he was too kind by asking them to choose their judge.yes i am.
mohammad commanded a couple of thousands and he killed a couple of hundreds.
hitler commanded scores of millions and killed a couple of millions.
by ratio & proportion Im sure its a close call. yes?
Fair and square.
Meedo
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Zooey
Guest
Amen to both of the above.
The kindest thing I can say, is that the man was deluded. My real
opinion of him, is unprintable on these forums.
M
meedo
Guest
1- This was the jusde´gement of the judge the jews picked themselves. and this was common practice even the jews did much worse stuff in the bible.
2- i am niot aware of this story , can you give me some references and then we can discuss it.
3- Islamic rule was the best that existed at the time, hec it was best for Coptic christians to be under Muslims than to be under the byzantine chrictians who banished their pope and wanted to wipe their religion of the ground, It was only when Muslims entered egypt that rthe Egyptian pope copulöd safely restore his position again and the Egyptian christians worshipped freely.
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Verisimilitude
Guest
LDS memebers have something in common with Islam and that is trying to convince others that their particular faith founders are legitimate against common knowledge and accepted history. The major difference I see is that while the LDS faith says they accept the OT & NT but have added to it without valid authority, the Mohammedean faith says they are corrupt and gave a new message also with no authority to do so.
Mohammed did not better his society unless you feel approved murders, approved theft, and approved discrimination by God is better than those things being unworthy of God. For those who equate any human being as supieor to Christ in that they have authority to modify or reject His words while still saying they honor Him is ludicris.
Was he any more inspired than say…Joey Smith Jr.?
Was the current pontiff known for unsupported/unverified visions like Mohammed or Joey? No. Was the Pope ever convicted of a crime like Joey, or had his crimes recorded like Joe or Mohammmed? No.
Isn’t Smith reported to have said “I will be to this generation a second Muhammed, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the Alcoran (Koran) or the sword.’ So shall it eventually be with us, ‘Joseph Smith or the sword!’”.
Such decent ‘men of peace’ as Mohammed and Joey are a dime a dozen.
Unreasonable is not applying common sense to what you are taught as a child to what you can discern as an adult. Where is any archelogical proof for the Nephite civilization as described in great detail in the books of Nephi, Mosiah, Alma, and Helaman?
Psychological maturity? How funny. The Bible is accepted by both groups of followers only to the extent that it agrees with their prophet’s own superior revelation. The Catholic Church was established by Christ and if you choose to believe someone other than that authority I suggest you loosen your belt.
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Verisimilitude
Guest
The ‘fact’ he was respected by his contemporaries only comes from his followers that won the day in Arabia. Most all opposition was killed or converted so a true picture of the man is difficult to discern today. I accept he was a charasmatic individual and maybe a typical 7th century man with respect to the norms of that time period. However, most mass muderers like Ted Bundy and Gacy were thought to be decent fellows before the truth came out about their real character and personality so I don’t know if there is enough to conclude with such confidence that Mohammed was a decent man before hsi call. He certainly wasn’t after.
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
Well it all came from a promise of God in the Bible, why do you suppose it is an entirely secular issue? It makes complete sense that Isaac’s inheritance was a religious covenant and great religious nation, and Ishmael’s inheritance was a lesser but still great religious nation. Plus Christians like to say they are of the nation of Israel and Abraham based on a religious not biological promise. So why deviate with Ishmael.
Therefore Islam came from Arabs and Arabs came from Ishmael, and Islam is the greatest competition to Isaac’s Covenant nations of Christianity and Judaism. So connect the dots.
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ericmatthews
Guest
a good man who while i dont think he truely saw God he did see something and i feel he truely thought he was doing the will of God and wanted what was best for otheres… and no i do not think he was of Satan
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Verisimilitude
Guest
Though it might be impossible to know the mind of God as to why, I think there are reasonable answers to the battles and laws as described in the OT that do not end with that final excuse-ever. Either you will think them reasonable or not. Some rules like the dietary and worship ones are not of interest of me to debate as much but the reasons why He separated the Jews from all others and reasons why He commanded the Jews to wipe out the inhabitants of the land He gave them as promised have in my view valid reasons for greater spiritual reasons culminating in Christ being born of the Virgin Mary.I have already grilled the Christians here about those issues. Theyre stumped. As usual the final excuse is “God knows best”.
Most who reject it cannot get around the apparent contradiction to a lovivg God portrayed by Christ to that of the war God perceived in the OT. If you equate “God knows best” to God’s response to Job when He asked “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the world…” then you will never be satisfied.
Think of it as a unique construction project. I must tear down a whore house to build a hospital. If all you see is the previous sin and the violence of the demolition but refuse to acknowledge the new jobs created and benefit of the hospital helping people then it is not my inability to explain it but maybe your stubborness to accept the truth or at least acknowledge the process though you neither want a new job or need the medical help yourself.
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
There is no contradiction for those who actually READ the NT rather than rely on feel-good preaching ABOUT it. Like:
Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Etc.
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Verisimilitude
Guest
Selective reading serves little purpose in comprehension. Do you understand the purpose of a parable and particularly do you understand this parable?
Matthew 25 recounts it as:
30And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Do you think they mean the same?
Before you say ‘look at the contradiction between them’ the many repeats in the Koran do similar comparrisons that give similar intent to the verse/meaning.
Like this one:
And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-al-Haram (the sanctuary at Makkah), unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #191)
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimoon (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #193)
Which one is correct? They both say Fitnah is worse than killing but the first does not offer a limitation on killing like the second. The first limits fighting in Mecca only…unless they fight you first. The second has no condition, just if they cease. Does cease mean if they accept Islam or just if they stop fighting? Does fight and kill mean different things here? Which do you follow since they differ?
You need a better understanding of the NT and admittedly Revelations is a difficult read to comprehend. Stick with the Gospels before moving onto the harder subjects. It would do little do try and explain my view of Revelations to you.
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
What I posted is about Jesus returning to earth and physically killing wicked people.
What you post is about casting people into the Sea which is the realm before Hell/Purgatory Jonah’s experience foretold of. Two different things.
How do you suppose they differ since one verse is right after the other. Is it really confusing if I say…
FIGHT THEM IF THEY FIGHT.
BUT DON’T FIGHT THEM IF THEY STOP FIGHTING.
…just because I say it all in two sentences?
Anyway what does that have to do with anything I posted about God still being warlike in Revelation etc. same as the OT.
You explained a lot of nothing so far. What was your point with all this?
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Angelos
Guest
Correction: All birds are biped creatures, but not all biped creatures are birds!
What makes you mark Arabs as a religious nation? There are many great nations the Bible mentions, but only one of them is regarded by God as a religious (chosen) one based upon a covenant. God primarily makes a covenant with Noah too, and the world population after the great flood is stated in Genesis to have been descended from Noah’s 3 sons. Nevertheless, the nations of that time do not entail a religious nature, being purely secular.
Christians do call themselves the spiritual descendants of Abraham because they believe to be the heirs of the divine promise through faith in Christ. Muslims, on the other hand, cannot claim anything of the sort because neither Ishmael nor Arabs are the heirs to the promise given to Abraham’s son Isaac. The Bible makes it clear that God does not choose Abraham for Ishmael, but for Isaac. Therefore, Ishmael’s descendants can claim nothing more than being descendants of a great nation with no divine promise and religious covenant. Remember that biblical Abraham leaves Ishmael, who is thrown out of the house. This illustrates Ishmael is not included into the covenant between Abraham and His God.
I fail to connect the dots because even your Koran emphasizes that the Scripture and the chain of prophecy are given to Isaac’s descendants. No wonder why Ishmael’s descendants remained idolatrous until Islam whereas God’s revelation has been continuously with Israel.
Peace,
Angelos N.B.
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Mystic_Warrior
Guest
Back on topic after a long list of off-topic discussions…
My understanding is that he was a false prophet, had delusions of grandeur and was the founder of a religion which at its heart is a rebellion against the Holy Son of God, God the Son, the Alpha and the Omega, the Author and Finisher of our Faith, the great I AM, Wonderful, Counselor, Prince of Peace, the Great Physician and every other Godly quality that you can think of.
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Angelos
Guest
I wonder why you can quote only verses referring to the Parousia (Jesus’ second coming) in the Gospel and the Book of Revelation in order to compare the Koran with the NT.
The parable you quoted from Luke and the other verses from the Revelation are associated with the notion of Judgment: what will Jesus do when He descends from the sky? You do not seriously expect Judgment to be a garden of Roses, do you?
Nowhere in the Gospel does holy Jesus command His apostles and followers to defend and spread the faith through sword, which apparently contrasts the verses asking Muslims to fight and murder infidels! Pay heed to the following statements uttered by Jesus in the Gospels:
Matthew 26: 51-53 And behold one of them that were with Jesus, stretching forth his hand, drew out his sword: and striking the servant of the high priest, cut off his ear. Then Jesus saith to him: Put up again thy sword into its place: for all that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Thinkest thou that I cannot ask my Father, and he will give me presently more than **twelve legions of angels? **
John 18:36 Jesus answered: My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would certainly strive that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now my kingdom is not from hence.
As for the day of Judgment, Jesus will order His angels to pour wrath upon the evildoers, not His human followers:
**Matthew 13:27-30 ** And the servants of the good man of the house coming said to him. Sir, didst thou not sow good seed in thy field? Whence then hath it cockle? And he said to them: An enemy hath done this. **And the servants said to him: Wilt thou that we go and gather it up? ** And he said: No, lest perhaps gathering up the cockle, you root up the wheat also together with it. Suffer both to grow until the harvest, and **in the time of the harvest **I will say to the reapers: Gather up first the cockle, and bind it into bundles to burn, but the wheat gather ye into my barn.
This is what makes Jesus’ message different from the Koran.
Peace,
Angelos N.B.
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AgnosTheist
Guest
No. I have sufficient information that Mohammad had schizophrenia and that the voices he heard were but the product of his imagination. But he sincerely believed it came from an angel. Sincerely mistaken.
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AgnosTheist
Guest
There is no excuse for slavery and genocide. Mohammad’s “judge” was nothing but a kangaroo court. Mohammad was the Overlord and he had the power to be merciful if he only wished to be so.
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Booklover
Guest
Amen to both of the above.
The kindest thing I can say, is that the man was deluded. My real
Vickie
B
Booklover
Guest
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